So who would rape ilii anyway?

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Brel
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So who would rape ilii anyway?

Post by Brel »

In the Almeopedia article, zompist (?) wrote:For the females, these are also a defense mechanism; there are tiny, sharp scales along the outside of the labia, which can be shut tight if desired, preventing rape or administering a drastic punishment for it.
So... who would be doing the raping, really? If the ilii are a "nearly unfallen" race, I can't see the males among them doing it. And even most humans wouldn't be so stupid as to attempt to rape an iliu (well, I suppose you never know...). But even if they did I doubt they'd get all the way to the labia before they were stopped, right?

So who would attempt to rape the ilii? Animals? Ktuvoki? Do these creatures ever rape male ilii as well?
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Re: So who would rape ilii anyway?

Post by - »

Brel wrote:So... who would be doing the raping, really?
That's actually a pretty good question. Perhaps the defense mechanism is part of what begat the "unfallen" nature of the ilii?
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Post by zompist »

If you accept the theology of the Count of Years, the protection is Iainos's foresight, chiefly useful against the ktuvoks, though it protects against fallen humans as well.

From an evolutionary perspective, however, the iliu have been one among several Thinking Kinds for hundreds of thousands of years, and the adaptation protects against all the rest. And against male iliu if necessary-- some might be crazy or evil. (The present nature of iliu society isn't any guarantee that their pre-civilized state was so harmonious.)

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Post by Legros »

Off topic, but...

There's an urban legend in France (I don't know if it exists elsewhere) saying that East Asian women have teeth in their vagina. I don't know the origin of this legend. I suppose that the French soldiers who conquered Vietnam in the 19th century were surprised by the smallness of the local women's vaginas and created the legend.

When I was a student I once had a Japanese girlfriend. Another student (he was a brilliant fellow, but he knew little about life) asked me if it's true that Japanese girls have teeth in their vagina. Our conversation went like this:

I said:
_ Can you keep a secret?
_ Yes, of course!
_ You promise?
_ Yes, yes!
_ OK, I'll tell you. It's true... They do have teeth in their vaginas. But don't tell anyone!

Afterwards, I had a little remorse, I admit. Helping urban legends to spread is fun, but morally indefensible...

Another urban legend, apparently told by former French soldiers in Vietnam: Vietnamese prostitutes inserted a hollowed potato in their vagina, with a razor blade inside the potato. When the unsuspecting soldier inserted his penis, he bled to death.
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Post by Neek »

I've just been barely able to get access to the ZBB from work, but I still can't seem to get on Snopes.com to research this. I think the potato one is partially true, but is not limited to Vietnam and U.S. troops.

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Post by Aurora Rossa »

I was about to ask that same question, myself. And I've heard of the potato-razor thing, as well.
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Post by PyroKinetic »

The legend of the "vagina dentata" is, if you accept Freudian psychology (which I don't particularly tend to myself) a common manifestation of the male castration anxiety (though Freud himself never mentioned it).
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Post by Raphael »

Perhaps the rape protection simply evolved at a time when Ilii, in general. didn't have as nice personalities as they have now, yet?
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Post by Dewrad »

Or perhaps they can be employed to provide certain males with a certain level of pleasure? I mean, I assume the scales are sharp and don't have to close all the way.

This is probably too much information.
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Post by Legros »

AFAIK rape is not an animal trait. Only homo sapiens commits rape. Perhaps the behavior of ancient ilii was closer to man's than it now is.

What is the survival value of the labial scales? It looks non-existent to me, unless the rapists used to kill their victim after the act. Perhaps the ktuvoks (or even the ancient ilii) ate their victim afterwards? Sex stimulates the appetite! :)

Another hypothesis: the scales close after the sexual intercourse, lethally hurting the male. The female iliu, now impregnated, doesn't need the male anymore. After she castrated and disabled him with her labial scales, she easily overpowers him and eats him, like a mantis.

A psychiatrist could probably find meanings in this which Mark hadn't even noticed. American women are often described as femmes castratrices in French literature ;)
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Post by - »

Legros wrote:AFAIK rape is not an animal trait. Only homo sapiens commits rape.
I don't think that's true. See, for example, this article (also recently posted in Ephemera).
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Post by Legros »

ils wrote:
Legros wrote:AFAIK rape is not an animal trait. Only homo sapiens commits rape.
I don't think that's true. See, for example, this article (also recently posted in Ephemera).
I found no mention of rape in the article. Can you post a relevant quote?
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Post by zompist »

Legros wrote:AFAIK rape is not an animal trait. Only homo sapiens commits rape.
By no means; Jane Goodall has documented behavior among chimpanzees that we could only describe as rape.
What is the survival value of the labial scales? It looks non-existent to me, unless the rapists used to kill their victim after the act.
Any physical defense is useful both in case of an actual attack, and as a deterrent. Goodall mentions a male attacking a female so furiously that her hand was badly injured-- more serious for the tree-climbing chimps than for a human. Discouraging such attacks would have clear survival value.

If you don't think it's physically likely, consider the porcupine! Mr. Porcupine can have no sexual encounters except when the Mrs. is willing.
A psychiatrist could probably find meanings in this which Mark hadn't even noticed. American women are often described as femmes castratrices in French literature ;)
I think this tells us more about French males than about Americans!

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Post by - »

Legros wrote:I found no mention of rape in the article. Can you post a relevant quote?
Sure. It's in the bottom paragraph on the first page:
Still, it is not only the increasing number of these incidents that is causing alarm but also the singular perversity — for want of a less anthropocentric term — of recent elephant aggression. Since the early 1990’s, for example, young male elephants in Pilanesberg National Park and the Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Game Reserve in South Africa have been raping and killing rhinoceroses; this abnormal behavior, according to a 2001 study in the journal Pachyderm, has been reported in ‘‘a number of reserves’’ in the region.
And Mark is of course right about the chimpanzees.
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Post by Legros »

young male elephants in Pilanesberg National Park and the Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Game Reserve in South Africa have been raping and killing rhinoceroses
Elephants raping rhinoceroses? I'd like to see pictures :D
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Post by Gremlins »

Legros wrote:
young male elephants in Pilanesberg National Park and the Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Game Reserve in South Africa have been raping and killing rhinoceroses
Elephants raping rhinoceroses? I'd like to see pictures :D
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Post by Salmoneus »

Dewrad wrote:Or perhaps they can be employed to provide certain males with a certain level of pleasure? I mean, I assume the scales are sharp and don't have to close all the way.

This is probably too much information.
"It's to stop rape" is clearly just the embarrassed cover story for when discussing anatomy with other species.
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Post by Raphael »

Deleted the silly OT diversions. I thought about just moving them to Ephemera, but first, the main one of these diversions has already been posted in an Ephemera thread, and second, given that Almea doesn't prune at the moment and that Ephemera threads are usually gone pretty quickly, moving individual Almea posts to Ephemera is almost the same as deleting them anyway.
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Post by Debegduk ing Debegduked »

Raphael wrote:Deleted the silly OT diversions.
There were diversions on Optimality Theory? Damn, I missed them.
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Post by yufu »

I thought it was "Old Testament" for a moment.
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Post by Yiuel Raumbesrairc »

Back on topic,

I indeed first asked myself why did they need anything like such defense, but perhaps not because they are unfallen (I tend to hold the Irreanist view, when reading Mark's stuff.) but more where in the history of their spicies did they need it at all.

However, I must point out that "reproduction" is really not as peaceful as some would like to be. Nature has shown us that sexual reproduction can lead to a good deal of destruction. (Read a very good article on the sexual act among animals, they can be crazier than rapers indeed.)

Perhaps Mark hasn't worked out why do they have such things, but it would be interesting to know, if possible. However, seeing that they evolved some aphrodisiacs along the way might tell us a lot about ilian sexuality : it is not a mere "reproduction" mean. So I would like to imagine that the defense could also be a protection against someone having pleasure without consent, which could be important in ilian life, enough to influence biology.
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