Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by **zompist** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:59 am

Any chance of changing a consonant in Xsalad? I keep thinking of salad.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:15 pm

[quote="Radius Solis]* Elevated cities (well, a few anyway): instead of the plain old city-wall approach to defense, some Xsali cities have landfilled behind their walls until the whole central city stands well above the surrounding ground; in at least one city multiple levels of elevation occur.[/quote]

I like this! And instead of merely landfills, what if we have actual layers of city? Buildings built on the roofs of other buildings... admittedly you'd probably have to have overengineered stone buildings to do that.

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:27 pm

zompist wrote:Any chance of changing a consonant in Xsalad? I keep thinking of salad.

bwahahah...me too. X-Salad. Like X-Sampa.

You could put a click in there. Xsala!. It would be funny to always see it written as "Xsala!" on the map -- a very emphatic country.

Post by **zompist** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:18 pm

By the way, at least in certain circumstances, cities will elevate themselves, not with landfill but with garbage. This is routine in the Middle East... people build over previous detritus and ruins, and the city rises over time.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm

Yeah, I know. I was thinking that process could help give some of the cities some extra height. There's only so far up you can reasonably build that would have benefits worth the cost, so trash/rubble accumulation over time piled atop the original artificially raised ground will at best add some height - and at worst, offset the compaction of the landfill.

krinnen · Post by **krinnen** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:42 pm

zompist wrote:By the way, at least in certain circumstances, cities will elevate themselves, not with landfill but with garbage. This is routine in the Middle East... people build over previous detritus and ruins, and the city rises over time.

I read somewhere that the roman settlement where London lies today is buried 30 meters (or was it feet?) below modern streets. Don't know if that's true

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:07 pm

I've just been comparing the Ndak Ta wordlists (old & new) with the Miwan and Faraghin/Isthmus ones, looking for possible Ngauro loan/cognates. So far I've found several, of varying likelihood...

NT kaime "study", and maybe also kenla "teacher, scribe", seems to reflect the same root as Miw ki:mat "comprehension" and probably also kim "recipe, spell, algorithm, prescription".

NT mos "city, town" seems plausibly related to Far mašt "house, palace" (< PI *mas, *mes, or *mos, with a mystery suffix *-t added sometime after Western Isthmus).

NT naka "god" could possibly be cognate with Far nagat "lord, chief".

NT diàka "king, ruler" I've already noted as possibly cognate with Far čark "king" (probably < PI *t`alk).

NT ntindo "metal" seems similar to Miw di:ndi:n "metal", but the borrowing, if it is one, could be in either direction.

NT alpau "make, create" might just possibly be somehow related to Far foghan "make, craft" (if the latter < PI *s-pug-s-).

NT sai "female" is almost certainly cognate with Far šoi "woman" (< PI *saj, *sej, *soj)... which suggests that NT dado "male" probably reflects the Ngauro word for "man".

NT eplain "ball" seems similar to Miw plaj "bead"; but again the loan could be in either direction.

Finally, NT santa "legal", santau "illegal", and sanlena "public" seem to share a root *san-, but the derivational morphology doesn't appear to be native (unless I'm missing something). Just possibly, the root is the same as Far šan "fire" (< PI *san, *sen, *son); the idea might related to some kind of metaphorical connection between fire/cooking/sacrifice and public/legal actions...? (Radius, do you remember what relationship you intended among these three NT words?)

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:45 pm

Corumayas wrote:(Radius, do you remember what relationship you intended among these three NT words?)

Yes - I intended for them to be opaquely related.

Possibilities:

* NT borrowing santa or santau from another dialect, which at some point had experienced a semantic reversal of the word as well as a sound change (au > a seems likely)

* both or all three forms being borrowed from another language, with that language's derivational morphology preserved

* sanlena could be a compound with a word since lost from NT on its own, or a compound borrowed from another language

* some combination of these

kodé · Post by **kodé** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:55 pm

Tres sweet! I was just thinking about Xsali, specifically in regard to the Tjakori valley, which I'd like to claim fiefdom over (I've already started deriving (proto-?)Tjakori from proto-Western, at about -2000 Y.P.). According to Sal's climate map, the Tjakori valley is steppe, which would rather well suit a (semi-?)nomadic pastoral people, perhaps with some more settled agriculturalists in the river valleys. I could well see the Tjakori valley as a thorn in the side of X :sh alad, with periodic plundering invasions by the former followed by ineffective retaliatory invasions by the latter. After all, every China needs its Mongolia...

Radius Solis wrote:3. Yes, you're right about the name usage. Xsalad is the noun for country; Xsali is the adjective for everything to do with it, and by extension the noun for its people and language. However, these terms as we know them were borrowed into Adata via the Tjakori language and are not necessarily the exact wordforms the Xsali themselves use.

Hmm... for the state of Tjakori I'm working on, the closest equivalents would seem to have to be [k_ha_0Sali], [k_ha_0Salat]. Perhaps 2000 years later, the reflex could well be [xSali], [xSalad] (aspirate > spirant, voiceless vowel > nothing, final obstruent > +voiced).

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:11 pm

kodé wrote:Hmm... for the state of Tjakori I'm working on, the closest equivalents would seem to have to be [k_ha_0Sali], [k_ha_0Salat]. Perhaps 2000 years later, the reflex could well be [xSali], [xSalad] (aspirate > spirant, voiceless vowel > nothing, final obstruent > +voiced).

Actually, IIRC, Adata borrowed them as Kasali, Kasalad; so what you've got's probably just about right.

Radius Solis wrote:
Corumayas wrote:(Radius, do you remember what relationship you intended among these three NT words?)
Yes - I intended for them to be opaquely related.

I see. I'd say there's a good chance at least one of them is borrowed from Ngauro, then.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:05 pm

Hmm. I'd sorta envisioned the Tjakori as a thorn in Xsalad's side as well, but in a somewhat different manner. I'm sure there's room for compromise. The vague Mongolia analog I'd envisioned wasn't Tjakori but the deserts west of the empire - I've got westerners harassing various parts of the empire a number of times in the chunks of history I've sketched thus far.

I'm not sure what time period you're planning to set your Tjakori language - is it to be roughly contemporary with Adata? That's what I'm aiming Xsali for. Let's see whether your timeline matches mine very well or at all:

c. -3000: Proto-Western speakers invade the Xsalad Plain, rule it for a couple centuries but ultimately are absorbed without imposing their language and culture very successfully
c. -2750: formation of the Old Kingdom, the first (and last!) natively ruled state on the Plain, which wasn't very expansionist
c. -2100: invasion of the Xsali, a previously unheard of people from the southwest; this invasion succeeds in gross cultural dominance of the Plain
c. -2000: formation of the First Empire, the first truly Xsali state, which expands to the east and west, but does not include Tjakori or anything close to it; much of the Xsali cultural tone has its roots in this period
c. -1400 to c. -980: first inter-imperial period (i.e. a long interregnum), with the Plain and other areas formerly part of the First Empire broken into warring kingdoms

c. -980: reunification of the Plain begins the Second Empire
c. -950 to c. -550: gradual expansion of the Empire brings the entire Xsali Sphere under unified rule, including:
-566: the Tjakori become the second-to-last people annexed by the 2nd Empire (as per the Adata cultural notes); trade with Rathedan established soon after
-521: rebellion of the Tjakori and the G||amsi (a nearby people) crushed
-441: ruling dynasty divides against itself; an Empire already weakened by western invasions descends into civil-war hell
-409: approximate end of the civil war

-409 to -158: second inter-imperial period / long interregnum
c. -290 to -158: Tjakori dominance of northern ex-provinces of the Empire brings them a smaller empire of their own
-241: expansion of the northern (Tjakori) empire halted when an earthquake levels much of its capital; things calm down after that
-181 to -170: the ambitious =Hon, king of Eg!e (another former Xsali province), reconquers the southern province-kingdoms one by one
-158: =Hon defeats the Tjakori empire, thus reunifying the whole Xsali sphere into the Third Empire

-158 to present (+200): Third Empire holds together, but is troubled with internal difficulties - not exactly a golden age; however, trade with distant lands increases greatly, both overland and by sea

(this timeline is severely abridged, as I included only the things most relevent to the Tjakori question. The full timeline will probably be about three pages long.)

So, kode, please tell me where and how this conflicts with what you had in mind, so we can work out compromises. Thanks!

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:00 am

Corumayas wrote:NT ntindo "metal" seems similar to Miw di:ndi:n "metal", but the borrowing, if it is one, could be in either direction.

/di:ndi:n/ sounds ideophonic, perhaps, representing the "sound" of metal.

kodé · Post by **kodé** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:27 pm

Radius Solis wrote:Hmm. I'd sorta envisioned the Tjakori as a thorn in Xsalad's side as well, but in a somewhat different manner. I'm sure there's room for compromise. The vague Mongolia analog I'd envisioned wasn't Tjakori but the deserts west of the empire - I've got westerners harassing various parts of the empire a number of times in the chunks of history I've sketched thus far.

I haven't done much of a culture sketch for Tjakori, as I'm waiting for Dewrad to finish his culture sketch of the Proto-Western speakers, from whom the Tjakori culture is descended. I don't think that the Tjakori valley is suitable for Xsali crops, so they'd probably have to wait until contact with Edak cultures in the Rathedan to start large-scale agriculture. Thus, they probably won't be settled densely for a while.

I'm not sure what time period you're planning to set your Tjakori language - is it to be roughly contemporary with Adata? That's what I'm aiming Xsali for. Let's see whether your timeline matches mine very well or at all:

If Proto-Western is set in the fourth millenium before 0 YP, then my Tjakori language would be early second millenium, which is a while before Adata.

...

c. -950 to c. -550: gradual expansion of the Empire brings the entire Xsali Sphere under unified rule, including:
-566: the Tjakori become the second-to-last people annexed by the 2nd Empire (as per the Adata cultural notes); trade with Rathedan established soon after
-521: rebellion of the Tjakori and the G||amsi (a nearby people) crushed

By this time the Tjakori may well be more than nomadic pastoralists. This subjugation > crushed rebellion > regained independence scenario may well be ignite the first Tjakori feelings of real regional and cultural identity.

-441: ruling dynasty divides against itself; an Empire already weakened by western invasions descends into civil-war hell
-409: approximate end of the civil war

-409 to -158: second inter-imperial period / long interregnum
c. -290 to -158: Tjakori dominance of northern ex-provinces of the Empire brings them a smaller empire of their own

This roughly 250-year period can then witness the first flowering of a unique Tjakori culture, distinct from both the Xsali and the Rathedan.

-241: expansion of the northern (Tjakori) empire halted when an earthquake levels much of its capital; things calm down after that
-181 to -170: the ambitious =Hon, king of Eg!e (another former Xsali province), reconquers the southern province-kingdoms one by one
-158: =Hon defeats the Tjakori empire, thus reunifying the whole Xsali sphere into the Third Empire

This century seems to witness the decline of this first flowering. 'Twould be important in the national saga.

-158 to present (+200): Third Empire holds together, but is troubled with internal difficulties - not exactly a golden age; however, trade with distant lands increases greatly, both overland and by sea

I'm guessing Tjakori will be the main passageway of trade/influence between the Plain and the Rathedan. That gives me something to work with...

So, kode, please tell me where and how this conflicts with what you had in mind, so we can work out compromises. Thanks!

This actually helps me quite a bit. Thanks!

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:21 am

I've put the beginnings of Proto-Eige-Isthmus up here.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:18 am

I like the way it is set out, with all the references to descendants.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:27 am

Awesome. I moved the "Faraghin" diachronics article I'd previously done to the KQ and changed the Proto-Isthmus links on your article (and elsewhere) to point to the local article instead of the Frathwiki one. We can probably just get ride of the FW version.

--

Are you going to add the previously-posted cognate sets to the article?

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:46 am

Zhen Lin wrote:I like the way it is set out, with all the references to descendants.

Thanks. I figured it was appropriate to do it that way, since I actually am starting out from something like the comparative method.

Radius Solis wrote:Awesome. I moved the "Faraghin" diachronics article I'd previously done to the KQ and changed the Proto-Isthmus links on your article (and elsewhere) to point to the local article instead of the Frathwiki one. We can probably just get ride of the FW version.

Cool. I'm wondering whether it might make sense to make a separate article for PEI, rather than use the language family page for that... I guess it'll depend on how big the proto-lang gets. The current arrangement'll do for now.

Are you going to add the previously-posted cognate sets to the article?

Yeah, I'll do that tonight if I have time. (I should also look for some less obvious cognates; I'm afraid several of the ones I've found so far may be a little too close to each other, given the supposed time-depth of this family.)

BTW, at the moment the biggest problem I have diachronically is accounting for the Miwan voiced fricatives /v z/; so far I have only fuzzy ideas about where /z/ comes from, and none at all for /v/. Any suggestions?

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:02 pm

Corumayas wrote:BTW, at the moment the biggest problem I have diachronically is accounting for the Miwan voiced fricatives /v z/; so far I have only fuzzy ideas about where /z/ comes from, and none at all for /v/. Any suggestions?

1. intervocalic voicing of *f, *s.
2. frication of *b, *d. Some /z/ could also come from *g > *G > z / _[+front], [+front]_.
3. fortition of *j, *w (especially in word-initial position, which is the most common position for /v/ in the Miwan sources for loans in Pencek).

The most likely option IMO would be a combination of 2. intervocalically and before a (voiced?) plosive (the Pencek dictionary contains no Miwan loans with intervocalic /b d/; /g/ does occur in zugi:r and aspi:ga - both adjacent to a front vowel, alas!), and 3. initially (there are the words jun, jus, wifki:, wu:, but maybe you could explain these as coming from a prefixed vowel that prevented fortition but later dropped out, or became the source for the glide itself. Or else, have initial *w, *j, *J, *N > v, z, j, M\; the latter written <w> or turning into /w/ later on)

EDIT:
The Puoni lexicon does not contain Miwan loans with intervocalic /b d/ either. I guess this is a very strong point for these as a source of the voiced fricatives. *g would probably have lenited as well, but it seems to have undergone re-fortition...

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:57 pm

There actually is one Miwan loan in Pencek with intervocallic /d/: kuda:rm "very bad"; but with that final cluster, it's already an aberration. Also, some intervocallic /f/ becomes /v/: cf. furzin, furzi:n "tree-life; elm" and ti:vur "funny-tree; hickory". But there's a couple examples of intervocallic /f/ remaining /f/ too. And none of this explains the numerous /v z/ that aren't intervocallic...

There are plausible reasons for all this inconsistency, though... I think both sets of Miwan loans reflect multiple dialects, and there's probably been a lot of borrowing between Miwan dialects/languages too. And those lists date to significantly later than Faraghin (and much later than Ngauro), so the changes in Miwan should be greater and more complex anyway. (Not so for the hypothetical Proto-Miwan, though, which should be roughly contemporary with Old Ngauro and Proto-Isthmus...)

I also just realized that I forgot a couple more Old Miwan consonants, /X ?/; and OM apparently lacked /R/, though it appears in its descendent (the source of the loans in Puoni). I need to mull these things over for a while.

Meanwhile, I've copied all the cognates I've posted about here, plus a few more, onto the wiki page.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:09 am

I see a few incremental updates on KneeQuickie, but from the lack of posts in here - I guess there are not many significant updates? Hmm. This may not bode well.

(I feel guilty about not having made any significant progress on proto-Peninsular since the last update.)

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:44 am

I've been figuring that after all the intense activity for a couple months, a restful pause isn't inappropriate. Plus it's the holiday season.

Not that I have anything new to post right now myself either. I too feel guilty for the half dozen or more balls I've dropped, but meh... I'll get around to everything sooner or later. This is pretty much the only con-project I care about anymore (though I remain fond of the Kutjaraworld, it appears to be largely moribund), so I'm unlikely to vanish from Akana anytime soon! I do have more stuff than I've actually shown off, but all of it is half-done and I'm having trouble focusing on any particular one of them. The Naidda lexicon, and grammar, and the Xsali history, and conlang, as well as a couple KQ articles, are all in the limbo-realm of having substantial material with nothing in postable shape yet.

Also: although no post was made here about it, Dewrad finished and posted in a new thread his... interesting... Proto-Western culture sketch during the interim here.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:42 pm

Same than Radius, I have several things for this in the works.

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:15 am

In this lull I'll take the opportunity to post some of my continued Huyfarahan history as it stands.

Critiques welcome. I probably should write this in note format rather than nice prose so that it's easier to correct things, but somehow that goes against my instincts.

Some concerns:
-We must make sure that this history matches what's going on to the west: who's in control of Lasomo at any one time, for example.
-Are my made-up Fáralo names okay?

THE SECOND GOLDEN AGE
Gadein II (that is, Etou III’s heir) died peacefully in 343. He had no male children, and there was a brief dispute for the crown before a cousin, Baodan of the House of Malei, was named – the long-reigning Malei Dynasty had begun.

Baodan I was by all means one of the greatest Huyfarahan Emperors. He had a keen understanding of economic policy, and devoted his reign to the purification and promotion of Etúgə, working closely with the Senate, keeping the people well-fed, and conquering lands afar. He did build up something of a cult of personality, with statues of him adorning many public places, though he was probably right in thinking this was a good spirit-building activity.

His policies, coinciding with the acquisition of some of the Delta cities as well as Buruja as client states, were contributing to a strong economic boom during this period. This, with ensuing cultural developments, lead to what is known as the Second Huyfarahan Golden Age, roughly encompassing the second half of the fourth century Y.P.

One development during this period was a growing synthesis of urban cultures in the south, most robust in the city of Miədu, which around this time overtook Ussor as the largest city in the Empire (though Ussor was certainly more grand). Miədu had long harbored a minority of Naidda-speakers, culturally linked to their counterparts in the Kascan cities. The Kascan people were known as crafty merchants, though usually untrustworthy – but the people of Miədu seemed to have married their business sense to staunch Fáralo values and Etúgəist ethics.

Meanwhile, the Talo (a.k.a Epuonim) people, who also had the highest numbers in Miədu, had cornered a few markets: managing theaters of various kinds, running restaurants (not clearly differentiated from theaters) and an emerging type of grocery store (it was in Miədu that the open-air markets began to move indoors).

These kinds of urban innovations were most ubiquitous in Miədu and the northern delta cities (particularly Puwa), but spread to other cities throughout the Empire. Even remoter settlements such as Chisse and Agumosou attracted enterprising southerners.

There were dissenting voices. Many members of the ruling classes in the northern part of the country felt that all these Talo and Kascans running around were corrupting the nation’s moral values: Huyfárah was a nation of warriors and seafarers, committed to benevolent patriarchy, courageous battle, and the purity of Etúgə ethics! We need a class of merchants to keep things running, sure, but let them get out of hand and we’ll grow soft and effeminate and usurious!

Though the country’s expanding borders told another tale: more of the delta was brought into the fold in 363; the isles of Fmanahŋ Talam (need a Fáralo name) were discovered and claimed in 370. The Empire expanded inland in all directions, and colonial ports were established on the coast of the peninsula to the south. One major Kascan city that stayed autonomous during this period was Pawe.

In reality, though the Emperor staged a victory parade through the narrow streets of Momuva’e (himself present in effigy, in an old Edastean tradition), the Empire had almost zero control over proceedings within the city itself (a claustrophobic, Dantean nightmare; think Kowloon Walled City).

Though much of the emphasis on urban achievements in this section has focused on the city of Miədu, another city of great commerce innovation was Puwa, nominally part of Kasca, but which had a sizable minority of Fáralo-speakers. The Naidda spoken there was heavily influenced by Fáralo.

---

The language I am working on, I should announce, is the most significant descendant of Fáralo in the South - the language of Miədu, now known as Forɫo Namɨdu, or just Namɨdu for short (the city itself is Mɨdu).

My article will trace some general developments in Southern Fáralo, but describing Namɨdu in depth. Similar dialects are spoken in Pawe (along with Naidda, for a long time) and as far north as Mæmedéi.

I've got the sound-changes and some grammatical developments worked out, but to get a really complete picture, I need to know some things about developments in Naidda up to 1000 Y.P. Who's working on something like that? Zompist?

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:24 am

boy #12 wrote:I've got the sound-changes and some grammatical developments worked out, but to get a really complete picture, I need to know some things about developments in Naidda up to 1000 Z.E. Who's working on something like that? Zompist?

That would be Zompist, yes.

What is your Z.E. dating system based on? How does it match up to the Year of the Prophet calendar (Y.P., the one we've mostly been using thus far)?

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:28 am

Radius Solis wrote:
boy #12 wrote:I've got the sound-changes and some grammatical developments worked out, but to get a really complete picture, I need to know some things about developments in Naidda up to 1000 Z.E. Who's working on something like that? Zompist?
That would be Zompist, yes.

What is your Z.E. dating system based on? How does it match up to the Year of the Prophet calendar (Y.P., the one we've mostly been using thus far)?

oh SHIT, I was thinking Almea. Substitute 'Y.P.' for everything (next you'll see me write 'AD' or something). I feel absentminded.

I was probably even more confused because the prophet's name is Zārakātias.