Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[dunomapuka]

As you can see, I'm trying to inject a little life into the culture through anecdotal references. I may be a little confused about the boundaries of Athale's eastern frontier, though.

Most of you will not read this now as you are probably busy celebrating the holidays, and this thread has ground to a halt -- but I'm hoping for some interesting new activity post-New Year's.

CONTINUED SUCCESS AND WEIRD FAMILY DRAMA.

Baodan I died in 375 and his son Ŋajóri (or Ŋa-jori) took the throne; at age 29 he was dying of a respiratory ailment and feared that during his reign that he would be incapacitated and the country would be taken over by the Senate or other interlopers. So he decided he would step down and pass the throne to his brother – but in Huyfarahan tradition one could not just abdicate, and it was decided he would honorably and ceremoniously commit suicide (by defenestration).

His 21-year-old brother Ŋamíga (or Ŋa-miga) held a grand funeral and took the throne in the summer of 376. He lead the country ably enough, though was less cooperative with the Senate than his father was; by the end of his reign it was becoming clear that his genius was gearing itself more towards private pursuits than firm rule. He spoke six languages, spent long stretches at his country retreat on the Porásh, curated a collection of ancient art, and composed a volume of religious poetry in Mûtsipsa’. He fathered many illegitimate children, but to his queen bore only three daughters. The conventional resolution to this problem would be to pick a nephew or cousin to be heir; a more unconventional one would be to raise one of his sons as though he were a legitimate child. The first option left his paternal instincts cold, and feared word would get out if he attempted the second. Ŋamíga was an entirely unconventional person, and decided that he would bully the Senate, and indeed the entire nation, into accepting one of his daughters as Empress.

He died prematurely in 395, probably as a result of bingeing on opium and rice wine. The Senate ruled, in accordance with his wishes, that his daughter Bewš would rule – under the proviso that in public discourse she would be referred to as male. She would dress as a man, talk like a man, act like a man, and be given a man’s name.

Thus began the strange reign of Baodan II. Sporting a man’s robes and crew-cut, he (following native historiography, we will refer to his public persona as “he”) addressed the citizens of Ussor, and vowed to further the empire’s glory: The system of roadworks and the navy were expanded, and modern methods of financing were pursued.

Baodan II was neither very traditional very religious, though certainly patriotic, and committed himself, in a distinctly Huyfarahan way, to ensuring both commercial strength and military might. Still, he attracted some grumblings from conservative northern nobles (the “north” being defined as “past the Oltu”), but they did not dare complain too harshly, because the emperor had the support of the urban bourgeoisie who were funding the Navy and commercial expeditions. It was likely that many were pissed of that he was in fact a woman, which was universally known, but not to be publicly mentioned, on pain of death.

A planned city was built (foundations laid: 401) on the east coast of Fmanahŋ Talam facing Huyfárah. It was named ædelu na-Malei (“Malei City,” demonstrating that by this point na- was already in use as a genitive). It was settled mostly by people from Ussor and the Oltu valley.

During this period the cities continued to flourish. One port town, about halfway in between Miədu and Mæmedéi had grown to large size: Azb´æbu (< as bæbu, “many anchors”).

The Empire of Athale held firmly onto the area of Lasomo around Ngahêxôldod, while Huyfarah was cementing its grip on the Eigə Valley west of Buruja. Baodan did not wish to bring the two empires into conflict, and was contented with only the eastern fringes of Ndok territory, sending no military expedition west of that portion of the Eigə. None of these areas were very easy to hold on to, though - the natives were tough and obstinate, with a penchant for guerilla warfare, if they got pissed off at their local lords.

The barbarians to the north made occasional incursions but were rebuffed. The northern border of the Empire expanded incrementally into the mountains, and some bordering Isthmus peoples were assimilated.

[Zhen Lin]

Interesting stories indeed.

but in Huyfarahan tradition one could not just abdicate, and it was decided he would honorably and ceremoniously commit suicide (by defenestration).

But this part seems implausible?

[zompist]

I'm working on the successor to Delta Naidda, but don't have much to show yet. However, check out the overall history here:

http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... ing#564069

#12, your story is good, but I think you've got a bit of the Huyfarah/Kasca difference backwards: it's the Faralo, not the Kascans, who developed a market economy. Kasca was a command economy, and besides, it was a depressed backwater by the time of the empire.

But the idea of cultural fusion in Miedu is good. I like the idea of entertainers being an outside ethnic group.

Through the Balanin dynasty, emperors were normally given Faraghin names, but this could certainly have changed later.

If you need any classical Faralo words, tell me.

[Radius Solis]

#12, your story is good, but I think you've got a bit of the Huyfarah/Kasca difference backwards: it's the Faralo, not the Kascans, who developed a market economy. Kasca was a command economy, and besides, it was a depressed backwater by the time of the empire.

Indeed - by the time of the Huyfarah empire, Kasca's so-called economy was a shambles. There were probably a few sharp merchants and wares-peddlers around, of course - you can almost never get rid of those - but the great bulk of Kasca's economy in this era consisted of local exchange of food and basic goods, which were almost entirely locally produced. Shipment of surplus food and goods between different parts of Kasca wasn't wholly absent, but depended on being arranged by nobles, who kept accounts with each other.

The exception would be the more trade-oriented harbor towns on the coast and offshore islands, which had freer more market-like economies than the inland zones. They traded between each other and with the rest of Huyfarah. But, it's Huyfarah whose economy they were participating in, and had gained the market system from, and to which they politically belonged anyway.

[dunomapuka]

I'm working on the successor to Delta Naidda, but don't have much to show yet. However, check out the overall history here:

http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... ing#564069

#12, your story is good, but I think you've got a bit of the Huyfarah/Kasca difference backwards: it's the Faralo, not the Kascans, who developed a market economy. Kasca was a command economy, and besides, it was a depressed backwater by the time of the empire.

I'll re-write it to suggest that any familiarity with markets among the Kascans derives from Fáralo influence.

Through the Balanin dynasty, emperors were normally given Faraghin names, but this could certainly have changed later.

I figured this would become sporadic by the 200's or 300's. I incorporated some Faraghin or semi-Faraghin names -- Baodan has the familiar bao- prefix (plus something else); Bewš is from the Goddess of Fate (I figure it might work as a personal name. especially after the connection with the religion had been lost).

But Ŋa-jori and Ŋa-miga are transparently Fáralo for "Awakening" and "Giving Thanks" (perhaps this is a more typical formation among Fáralo-speakers).

"Malei" I pulled out of my ass. Is it possible that derives from a Faraghin word?

If you need any classical Faralo words, tell me.

Did you mean Faralo or Faraghin? In the former I was looking for a word for "hill"; in the latter I could do with some material for naming elements.

But this part seems implausible?

I figure they might have totally different ideas about suicide than we do; it might be regarded as the most noble way out of certain situations, if performed with proper ceremony. Doesn't have to be jumping out of a window, if that seems absurd.

Or, we could just have him die of his disease. Or, other people perform some rite of euthanasia on him.

(I kind of like the Japanese approach: A dishonored samurai will commit suicide by disembowelment, but an assistant will be standing by to immediately finish the job by cutting his head off.)

[Radius Solis]

Congratulations, everyone! Our mutual efforts have added up to some substantial recognition. We've really cleaned up in the ZBB Awards!

Various or all of us have won in the following categories...

* Dewrad's Proto-Western, for best syntax
* Dewrad's Proto-Western, for best conculture (tied with another)
* Zhen Lin, for most ambitious conlanger
* The Edastean language family, for best diachronics
* Akana, for both "most improved conworld" and "most promising conworld"
* Our whole group, for best conculturer (tied with two others for one vote each, so not exactly a landslide)


And we have received honorable mention in several other categories as well.

GO TEAM!


Cynical aside: either that or the awards just demonstrate that collaborative projects make for strong voting blocs......

[Zhen Lin]

Congratulations, everyone! Our mutual efforts have added up to some substantial recognition. We've really cleaned up in the ZBB Awards!

Congratulations all!

Cynical aside: either that or the awards just demonstrate that collaborative projects make for strong voting blocs......

Entirely untrue. There was no collusion or conspiracy at all! None! I assure you!

[zompist]

I'll re-write it to suggest that any familiarity with markets among the Kascans derives from Fáralo influence.

OK. To be clear, the Fáralo saw nothing unmanly about markets and certainly didn't see them as foreign.

In the former I was looking for a word for "hill"; in the latter I could do with some material for naming elements.

Er... say, Radius, have you got an Ndak Ta word for 'hill'?

[Radius Solis]

Er... say, Radius, have you got an Ndak Ta word for 'hill'?

From the original lexicon:

daing - "mountain, hill, incline, anything large with a notable slope"

Ndak Ta did not distinguish between "hill" and "mountain". You played on this in your original setting description two years ago, the one from which I drew the first map. Since both your description and the original NT lexicon are foundations on which a ton of subsequent stuff has been built, I'm somewhat loathe to change either.

[Corumayas]

Seems like there oughta be a Faraghin word for hill. If zomp wants to make one up he can; if not, I (or Radius, or someone) could invent a Proto-(Eige)-Isthmus root or something.

Another possibility for increasing the Fáralo lexicon is to have more loans from Ndak Ta into Faraghin. It'd create doublets like NT daing > dæŋ, Faraghin *doin > *duy (I think that's right). Might be fun.


EDIT: Also, I like what you wrote, boy#12. You quasi-asked about Lasomo and the Athalēran empire; everything you've written so far seems fine to me, ...except that there could be more interaction between the two empires. Nothing is worked out in much detail for Athalē after about 310 Y.P., so you can invent border fluctuations, wars, alliances, or whatever you want (within reason of course) between Athalē and Huyfárah.

According to what we have so far, Akeladada/Enčéladə stays under Athalēran rule, and Ziphē/Boíəba stays independent; the border between Athalēran and Fáralo-dominated territory probably moves back and forth across the region between Akeladada and Buruja. But as far as I'm concerned any of those things can change if it results in a really good story.

(I vaguely intend to fill in some more Athalēran history at some point; but if someone else gets to it first, be my guest...)


Also also, congratulations everybody! As Radius said, GO TEAM!

[Zhen Lin]

Another possibility for increasing the Faralo lexicon is to have more loans from Ndak Ta into Faraghin. It'd create doublets like NT daing > dæŋ, Faraghin *doin > *duy (I think that's right). Might be fun.

That could certainly be interesting. Hmm. I can't think of any real-world examples at the moment though - the closest involve dead languages (e.g. Latin/French doublets in English) or repeated borrowing (e.g. Japanese uma in addition to ma and ba for horse).

[Corumayas]

Hmm. I think French bifteck is an example-- from English beefsteak, where beef is from French boeuf, of course. Can't think of any others though.

[Radius Solis]

These are like "boomerang borrowings" (e.g. Eng. quick Hawaiian wiki Eng. wiki) except with a much greater time depth. Here's a real-world example:

Code: Select all

Gmc.  *werra -> Eng. war
             -> Fr. guerre+DIM -> Eng. guerrilla

The guard-ward doublet has a similar history.

Edit: ah, Corumayas beat me to it. Also this is apparently my five thousandth post.

[zompist]

Ndak Ta did not distinguish between "hill" and "mountain".

Ah right, I forgot that bit.

OK, Fáralo will follow suit, but it can use the diminutive dæŋəl when a distinction seems necessary.

[tron cat]

I'm starting work on my daughter of Zhen Lin's Proto Peninsular now, and soonish I'll start work on the Faralo one.

I think what this project could seriously benefit from is more mapmaking. Unfortunately I have no skill in this area; perhaps we should kidnap HandsomeRob.

[Radius Solis]

Cool, I'm glad you're still with us.

As for maps... well, one of the lesser things on my overfull and underaddressed plate is a worldmap revised with some actual plate tectonics in mind, which I will put up for public consideration/editing whenever I get around to it. (Don't worry folks, I will propose no changes to the main Eige Valley region.)

[Radius Solis]

This may be a good time to bring up two proposals.

1. Dewrad has suggested to me that this thread should be split into two, with all the material that has ongoing relevence kept in the main thread, and all of the original-relay organization stuff from early on (like who was working on what and when, etc., a year ago) split off into another thread that can then get pruned and stop bulking up this one to little purpose. The downside is it requires going through post-by-post with a relevence check in mind. I'm volunteering to do this, and pharazon has given me permission to use his moderator powarz for it, but I want to see if the rest of you think this would be a good or valuable thing to do.

2. Would anyone be interested in a scheduled IRC Akana chat? (For those of you who aren't already IRC-goers: it's dead easy.) If we could find a date/time that would be available for as many interested people as we can, it might be a lot of fun and potentially very fruitful to get into a real-time discussion in a dedicated channel. Dewrad or I can set it up once a date and time is decided. Timezone differences might be tricky given the global spread we've got, but I think it'd be worth it to try. Anyone interested?

[Zhen Lin]

This may be a good time to bring up two proposals.

1. Dewrad has suggested to me that this thread should be split into two, with all the material that has ongoing relevence kept in the main thread, and all of the original-relay organization stuff from early on (like who was working on what and when, etc., a year ago) split off into another thread that can then get pruned and stop bulking up this one to little purpose. The downside is it requires going through post-by-post with a relevence check in mind. I'm volunteering to do this, and pharazon has given me permission to use his moderator powarz for it, but I want to see if the rest of you think this would be a good or valuable thing to do.

This seems like a good idea.

2. Would anyone be interested in a scheduled IRC Akana chat? (For those of you who aren't already IRC-goers: it's dead easy.) If we could find a date/time that would be available for as many interested people as we can, it might be a lot of fun and potentially very fruitful to get into a real-time discussion in a dedicated channel. Dewrad or I can set it up once a date and time is decided. Timezone differences might be tricky given the global spread we've got, but I think it'd be worth it to try. Anyone interested?

I could try, but with up to a +16 difference between PST and here, that could be problematic...

[Radius Solis]

I could try, but with up to a +16 difference between PST and here, that could be problematic...

From PST it's only -8!

But our wide distribution may leave you at a better time advantage than you may have thought. Various of us are in the USA (me, Corumayas, Zomp, boy #12), Britain (Sal and Dew), Germany (cedh), France (Legion), Singapore (you), and New Zealand (weldingfish). So no matter how you divide it longitudinally, no third of the globe has less than two Cursed Relay participants. Thus a chat could end up being scheduled for practically any time of the day depending on who wants to do it - and though it's almost guaranteed that not everyone can make it, you've got as good a shot as anyone. The tricky part is actually settling on a time. Hopefully that won't have to involve two whole pages of thread posts just to organize. Also if there is sufficient interest and too much time conflict, perhaps multiple times could be scheduled. Logs of each chat can be kept and posted here.

(Personally, I'm willing to set my alarm and wake up at any hour that gets settled on, and most days are relatively free (I'm unemployed).)

[Legion]

Why don't we just set up a permanent channel, and people come when they can ?

[Radius Solis]

Because then it will go like this (from my time perspective):

[03:51] Legion has joined #akana
[03:53] <Legion> Hello? Anyone here?
[04:20] Legion has left #akana
[09:12] Dewrad has joined #akana
[09:12] <Dewrad> Hello? Anyone here?
[09:18] Dewrad has left #akana
[18:41] Zhen_Lin has joined #akana
[18:44] <Zhen_Lin> Hello? Anyone here?
[20:11] Zhen_Lin has left #akana

...and so forth.

(that said: I have created the channel in case anyone wants to pop in. It's on the server irc.sorcery.net. But I think the benefits of a scheduled chat time are clear.)

Edit: should anyone need assistance with an IRC client: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_R ... at#Clients gives both a basic grounding and links to a few widely used ones.

[Legion]

Oh but, when I log on a channel, I generally stay logged untill I completly leave IRC, which is generally a whole several hours later. Some times I stay connected a really, really long time.

[Corumayas]

I'm in favor of both your proposals, Radius. I'm IRC-illiterate, but I'll figure it out... and I shouldn't have too much trouble finding a day now and then when I can be online at a weird time.

[Cedh]

I'm in favor of both your proposals, Radius.

Me too. My time budget is rather limited (ca. 8-12pm GMT on weekdays, somewhat more flexible at the weekend), but I'll try to log on when I can.

[kodé]

I'm in favor of both your proposals, Radius.

Me too.

Me as well.

I'm EST for the next few months, and for the next few weeks my schedule is quite free. However, since I usually rely on coffee-shops for my internet, I'll need a time between 7AM and 10PM (again, that's EST).