Awesome! Quick questions:
-I take it <'> is a glottal stop?
-Lots of those are compounds. Did you have a particular morpheme breakdown in mind for any of them, or should I just figure it out (i.e. make it up) myself?
-You told me these loans date to around the year 0 Y.P. Roughly how long after that are the Miwan loans into Puoni and Pencek?
Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")
Hüwryaasûr, priestess of the four hegemons, wrote:Ryunshurshuroshan, the floating lizard
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Radius Solis
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1. whoops, yes.
2. I had no particular breakdown in mind for the compounded content-words, but I did make up and use some specific derivational morphology:
-ju agent nominalizer
-ti action nominalizer
-Xas negation
-ten "many, much"
Xas+ti -> -Xati
Given this, it shouldn't be hard to tell what some of the roots are (esp. "water" and "speak" which appear twice each), but I strongly suspect a lot of the ones that are translated with single English words are nevertheless analyzable into multiple morphemes.
3. Pencek has been borrowing words from its local Miwan lects over the whole millennium it's been in the forest. And vice versa, I'm sure. Puoni's loanwords should mostly be over its last three-ish centuries.
2. I had no particular breakdown in mind for the compounded content-words, but I did make up and use some specific derivational morphology:
-ju agent nominalizer
-ti action nominalizer
-Xas negation
-ten "many, much"
Xas+ti -> -Xati
Given this, it shouldn't be hard to tell what some of the roots are (esp. "water" and "speak" which appear twice each), but I strongly suspect a lot of the ones that are translated with single English words are nevertheless analyzable into multiple morphemes.
3. Pencek has been borrowing words from its local Miwan lects over the whole millennium it's been in the forest. And vice versa, I'm sure. Puoni's loanwords should mostly be over its last three-ish centuries.
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Radius Solis
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- Location: Si'ahl
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I've been thinking about the two-millennium gap between NT and classical times. Despite the expediency of what we did by fast forwarding like that, Sal is right that it gives the impression that "first it was this way, then everyone sat still for 2000 years, and now things are like this."
We do have some intermediate history for Rathedan and especially Huyfarah, and those don't necessarily need lots of work, unless their respective creators want to lend more life to them. The big lacunae are Lasomo and Kasca. Lasomo belongs mainly to others, but Kasca is mine, so I feel I should add some flesh to the skeletal description of its intervening history.
Here are some initial thoughts, building off the things mentioned in the Huyfarahan history. This post is edited from its first edition a few hours ago. Comments requested:
1. The Ndak decline took time. Various ancient empires on Earth have taken as much as half a millennium to slowly wither, and I think it makes sense to have the Ndak suffer the same fate. I'd like to see Kasca/Kasadgad hang on as a political entity at least until maybe -1200 or so, for several centuries after having lost control over everything else.
2. It was late in this period that the area had a last gasp of vitality, managing to reconquer both the Huyfarah littoral (as mentioned by Zomp) and most of the Aiwa below Lasomo. One or two of these latter-day kings may have been recorded in legend and song.
3. Then we need some reasons for the final full loss of vitality. I'd like to posit a natural disaster. This could be an opportune time to let Kasca get smacked by one of the rare major hurricanes to come ashore along that coast. Complete loss of the coastal towns coupled with massive inland flooding, that should make a pretty solid job of finishing them off. The Ndak lose all the coast above Miedu and all the river above Buruja and find themselves with little overall societal structure. And to top it all off, their canal has silted up due to lack of maintenance, blocking navigation of the delta.
4. What happens next? Well, I'm picturing this: for the next few centuries nobody does anything important. It happens. Even the art of writing is gradually lost to all but the occasional scribe, most of whom were educated elsewhere.
5. By -900 or so, Påwe, Momuva'e, Laspera, Buruja, and Miedu emerge as leading city-states with a comparatively minor reflourishing of culture and trade, while the delta zone between them continues to host a large population living on subsistence farming. A modest agricultural surplus in the delta goes to fuel the economies of the major city-states more than it helps the actual delta residents, who are mostly in subjugation to the big five.
6. In other circumstances the emergence of these city states might herald a progression back to national vitality. Why didn't it? Well, I don't have any better ideas (if you do, I want to hear them), so I'm going to say that at least some of the cause was rooted in a cultural mindset of classic dark-ages-type pessimism. They didn't work as hard as they could have for a better future because why bother when nothing ever changes anyway. It would be very easy for a people to pick up such attitudes over the course of a millennium of decay.
7. Well, ish. Another factor was that by this time, despite sharing a language, they probably would have lost most or all sense of being a single people - during this era, Kasca was the Kascans' whole world, they didn't care much about anyone else (a major mistake), but they had a lot of rivalry with each other. Not always peaceful rivalry either.
8. So when they started getting harassed by a people to their west, they didn't help each other. And these westerners spent the next two centuries occupying parts, and sometimes all, of Kasca, with some of the city-states at various times freeing themselves and later getting reconquered. Who were these People X from west of Kasca? I'll leave that up to you guys, but I think maybe they should have come from fairly close by. I don't think there's any need to bring the Hitatc or the Meshi or anyone from far out west all the way over here just for this, unless somebody sees a tie-in with something they want to do.
9. By -600, these People X were in a wide-front conflict with the Faraghin, who wanted the Kascan coastal citystates for their own growing nation. Not caring much about the inland city states Buruja and Laspera, the Faraghin focused their efforts on Miedu, Momuva'e, and Påwe. Miedu they won after several battles with People X; Kasca never got it back. But the effort was costly, and the Faraghin took a different approach with the other two: supply and arm the natives who wanted their independence back, with later major concessions to Huyfarah in return.
10. The native would-be rulers of Påwe and Momuva'e took the Faraghin up on their offer. And when they succeeded in fighting themselves free, in the -580s, the success went to their heads and they went off to free Laspera and Buruja too. Their contest for Laspera lasted years, and by the time it was over, both sides had spent all they had on the war and the city itself was in ruins, and was never rebuilt. This effectively ended the People-X threat to the up-and-coming Huyfarah and its ruling classes were pleased.
11. The remaining contingent of People X were simply absorbed, in time, into the Burujan population - but it was never truly part of Kasca again.
12. Momuva'e and Påwe also failed to uphold their deal with the emerging Faraghin nation - or I guess I should call them the Faralo now. But Huyfarah's mind was elsewhere, on a series of long conflicts they were pursuing to their east, and the Kascan independence battles essentially ended the threat to Huyfarah from People X, so Huyfarah was not especially angry. The two remaining major Kascan cities basically got away with it. But they nevertheless lost their control of the delta during the -400s to Huyfarah.
13. The loss of the delta hit Momuva'e much harder than it did Påwe. The former was reduced to controlling only its own immediate surroundings, and was dependent thereafter on covert deals with nominally Huyfarahan delta folk for adequate food supply. Its population fell, and by -300 it had sunk into lawless anarchy. This continued even when the delta lands regained de facto freedom by virtue of being completely ignored by Ussor within a few generations. The Delta had only one major natural resource, agriculture, and Huyfarah at the time was not in particularly high need of it since it had plenty fertile land of its own.
14. Påwe fared better. It still controlled a sizeable chunk of land south of the delta, and in time this whole area came to be seen as a unitary, independent kingdom, if a small one, achieving relative stability and modest success. By this time Huyfarah was becoming a major empire looming to the north, and with the ever-present threat of being swallowed up, statesmen of Påwe learned quickly about diplomacy. They succeeded in half-convincing Ussor that their economic value to Huyfarah was greater as a friendly neighbor than as a smashed conquest, and for a time were left alone, provided they remained on favorable trading terms. Påwe even finally fulfilled the terms of their bargain for freedom from three centuries prior, and the Empire was busy with conquests elsewhere and seemed content to let matters stand. Meanwhile, culture and quality of life in the little kingdom were improving year by year.
15. In the -120s, they began a series of attempts to control Momuva'e. They succeeded in -119, but lost it again in a revolt less than a year later. But in -112, they retook the city and held it, which upset the delicate balance of powers in Kasca. Huyfarah was not amused, and relations soured. Matters came to a head when in -209 Huyfarah invaded Momuva'e - the king of Påwe knew that winning was impossible, and let the city go without a fight. Huyfarah demanded concessions, and the king was forced to cede nearly half his kingdom. But Momuva'e itself proved a tough nut for the Faralo to crack - none of their prior conquests involved controlling a tough, bitter, and hostile urban population with a penchant for lip service and playing dirty. Huyfarah abandoned the city after a few years, but to make their point stick, they once again occupied the river delta.
16. To be continued.........
We do have some intermediate history for Rathedan and especially Huyfarah, and those don't necessarily need lots of work, unless their respective creators want to lend more life to them. The big lacunae are Lasomo and Kasca. Lasomo belongs mainly to others, but Kasca is mine, so I feel I should add some flesh to the skeletal description of its intervening history.
Here are some initial thoughts, building off the things mentioned in the Huyfarahan history. This post is edited from its first edition a few hours ago. Comments requested:
1. The Ndak decline took time. Various ancient empires on Earth have taken as much as half a millennium to slowly wither, and I think it makes sense to have the Ndak suffer the same fate. I'd like to see Kasca/Kasadgad hang on as a political entity at least until maybe -1200 or so, for several centuries after having lost control over everything else.
2. It was late in this period that the area had a last gasp of vitality, managing to reconquer both the Huyfarah littoral (as mentioned by Zomp) and most of the Aiwa below Lasomo. One or two of these latter-day kings may have been recorded in legend and song.
3. Then we need some reasons for the final full loss of vitality. I'd like to posit a natural disaster. This could be an opportune time to let Kasca get smacked by one of the rare major hurricanes to come ashore along that coast. Complete loss of the coastal towns coupled with massive inland flooding, that should make a pretty solid job of finishing them off. The Ndak lose all the coast above Miedu and all the river above Buruja and find themselves with little overall societal structure. And to top it all off, their canal has silted up due to lack of maintenance, blocking navigation of the delta.
4. What happens next? Well, I'm picturing this: for the next few centuries nobody does anything important. It happens. Even the art of writing is gradually lost to all but the occasional scribe, most of whom were educated elsewhere.
5. By -900 or so, Påwe, Momuva'e, Laspera, Buruja, and Miedu emerge as leading city-states with a comparatively minor reflourishing of culture and trade, while the delta zone between them continues to host a large population living on subsistence farming. A modest agricultural surplus in the delta goes to fuel the economies of the major city-states more than it helps the actual delta residents, who are mostly in subjugation to the big five.
6. In other circumstances the emergence of these city states might herald a progression back to national vitality. Why didn't it? Well, I don't have any better ideas (if you do, I want to hear them), so I'm going to say that at least some of the cause was rooted in a cultural mindset of classic dark-ages-type pessimism. They didn't work as hard as they could have for a better future because why bother when nothing ever changes anyway. It would be very easy for a people to pick up such attitudes over the course of a millennium of decay.
7. Well, ish. Another factor was that by this time, despite sharing a language, they probably would have lost most or all sense of being a single people - during this era, Kasca was the Kascans' whole world, they didn't care much about anyone else (a major mistake), but they had a lot of rivalry with each other. Not always peaceful rivalry either.
8. So when they started getting harassed by a people to their west, they didn't help each other. And these westerners spent the next two centuries occupying parts, and sometimes all, of Kasca, with some of the city-states at various times freeing themselves and later getting reconquered. Who were these People X from west of Kasca? I'll leave that up to you guys, but I think maybe they should have come from fairly close by. I don't think there's any need to bring the Hitatc or the Meshi or anyone from far out west all the way over here just for this, unless somebody sees a tie-in with something they want to do.
9. By -600, these People X were in a wide-front conflict with the Faraghin, who wanted the Kascan coastal citystates for their own growing nation. Not caring much about the inland city states Buruja and Laspera, the Faraghin focused their efforts on Miedu, Momuva'e, and Påwe. Miedu they won after several battles with People X; Kasca never got it back. But the effort was costly, and the Faraghin took a different approach with the other two: supply and arm the natives who wanted their independence back, with later major concessions to Huyfarah in return.
10. The native would-be rulers of Påwe and Momuva'e took the Faraghin up on their offer. And when they succeeded in fighting themselves free, in the -580s, the success went to their heads and they went off to free Laspera and Buruja too. Their contest for Laspera lasted years, and by the time it was over, both sides had spent all they had on the war and the city itself was in ruins, and was never rebuilt. This effectively ended the People-X threat to the up-and-coming Huyfarah and its ruling classes were pleased.
11. The remaining contingent of People X were simply absorbed, in time, into the Burujan population - but it was never truly part of Kasca again.
12. Momuva'e and Påwe also failed to uphold their deal with the emerging Faraghin nation - or I guess I should call them the Faralo now. But Huyfarah's mind was elsewhere, on a series of long conflicts they were pursuing to their east, and the Kascan independence battles essentially ended the threat to Huyfarah from People X, so Huyfarah was not especially angry. The two remaining major Kascan cities basically got away with it. But they nevertheless lost their control of the delta during the -400s to Huyfarah.
13. The loss of the delta hit Momuva'e much harder than it did Påwe. The former was reduced to controlling only its own immediate surroundings, and was dependent thereafter on covert deals with nominally Huyfarahan delta folk for adequate food supply. Its population fell, and by -300 it had sunk into lawless anarchy. This continued even when the delta lands regained de facto freedom by virtue of being completely ignored by Ussor within a few generations. The Delta had only one major natural resource, agriculture, and Huyfarah at the time was not in particularly high need of it since it had plenty fertile land of its own.
14. Påwe fared better. It still controlled a sizeable chunk of land south of the delta, and in time this whole area came to be seen as a unitary, independent kingdom, if a small one, achieving relative stability and modest success. By this time Huyfarah was becoming a major empire looming to the north, and with the ever-present threat of being swallowed up, statesmen of Påwe learned quickly about diplomacy. They succeeded in half-convincing Ussor that their economic value to Huyfarah was greater as a friendly neighbor than as a smashed conquest, and for a time were left alone, provided they remained on favorable trading terms. Påwe even finally fulfilled the terms of their bargain for freedom from three centuries prior, and the Empire was busy with conquests elsewhere and seemed content to let matters stand. Meanwhile, culture and quality of life in the little kingdom were improving year by year.
15. In the -120s, they began a series of attempts to control Momuva'e. They succeeded in -119, but lost it again in a revolt less than a year later. But in -112, they retook the city and held it, which upset the delicate balance of powers in Kasca. Huyfarah was not amused, and relations soured. Matters came to a head when in -209 Huyfarah invaded Momuva'e - the king of Påwe knew that winning was impossible, and let the city go without a fight. Huyfarah demanded concessions, and the king was forced to cede nearly half his kingdom. But Momuva'e itself proved a tough nut for the Faralo to crack - none of their prior conquests involved controlling a tough, bitter, and hostile urban population with a penchant for lip service and playing dirty. Huyfarah abandoned the city after a few years, but to make their point stick, they once again occupied the river delta.
16. To be continued.........
Last edited by Radius Solis on Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Salmoneus
- Sanno
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- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Here's a suggested chronology of the dark ages, focusing on the centre and the west:
-1900: Ndak height. Small Andagg state formed in resistence (though there is never a full invasion).
-1700: Hitatc invasion of the Aiwa above Latsomo. This is probably a process lasting a generation or two. [The Hitatc are already known to be militarily competent and have a standing grudge against the Ndak]. This cuts off Ndak in the Rathedan and the middle Aiwa above Latsomo – which is where the Komeyech (iircwiacdn) ancestors live. Andagg are at their height
-1600: Andagg state has disintegrated
-1400: Hitatc have expanded downriver into Latsomo, and upriver into Komeyech territory. They are not a monolithic entity, and often exhibit themselves through local conflicts – sometimes they are rulers, sometimes mercenaries, sometimes settlers. The Komeyech expand onto the Meshi river (what’s this officially called?). Meshi are gradually moved off their lands, generally moving to the west, becoming more nomadic.
-1200: The native inhabitants of the High Gouron, the Habeo, have invented the stirrup, and have unified into a small nomad empire. The nomadic Meshi on their eastern border are variously vassals and opponents
-1100-900: The Meshi, now with stirrups and saddles, and probably better horses than the Habeo, are finally ejected by the Habeo and travel east. They come to dominate the entire Aiwa valley, although generally through vassal rulers – so long as they have their loot and homage, they’re fine.
-900-500: Two Mohudza empires established – one, of settled Mohudza, on the Bwimbai, and one, of nomadised Mohudza, in the west. Ndok Aiso identity emerges in Latsomo as Hitatc and Meshi are assimilated.
-500: Komeyach speakers throw off nomad-Mohudza shackles. Conflict with settled Mohudza to the east exhausts both peoples.
-400: Last great nomadic empire of the dark ages, as Habeo united and conquer Komeyech, Aiwa Hitatc (who by now have been mostly supplanted by Ndok Aiso and Daiadak), Ndok Aiso and Mohudza. Unity quickly breaks down into fluctuating alliances.
-300-100: Unified Ndok Aiso state dominates the Aiwa, but stagnates. Hitatc invade from the south again, but as usual are unable to establish unified organisation. They assimilate into the native population; by now, primacy over the valley rests with Huyfarah.
Wrt to "People X" - there are many possibilities, but how about Ndak descendents from the north-west? They didn't all live on the river, after all.
-1900: Ndak height. Small Andagg state formed in resistence (though there is never a full invasion).
-1700: Hitatc invasion of the Aiwa above Latsomo. This is probably a process lasting a generation or two. [The Hitatc are already known to be militarily competent and have a standing grudge against the Ndak]. This cuts off Ndak in the Rathedan and the middle Aiwa above Latsomo – which is where the Komeyech (iircwiacdn) ancestors live. Andagg are at their height
-1600: Andagg state has disintegrated
-1400: Hitatc have expanded downriver into Latsomo, and upriver into Komeyech territory. They are not a monolithic entity, and often exhibit themselves through local conflicts – sometimes they are rulers, sometimes mercenaries, sometimes settlers. The Komeyech expand onto the Meshi river (what’s this officially called?). Meshi are gradually moved off their lands, generally moving to the west, becoming more nomadic.
-1200: The native inhabitants of the High Gouron, the Habeo, have invented the stirrup, and have unified into a small nomad empire. The nomadic Meshi on their eastern border are variously vassals and opponents
-1100-900: The Meshi, now with stirrups and saddles, and probably better horses than the Habeo, are finally ejected by the Habeo and travel east. They come to dominate the entire Aiwa valley, although generally through vassal rulers – so long as they have their loot and homage, they’re fine.
-900-500: Two Mohudza empires established – one, of settled Mohudza, on the Bwimbai, and one, of nomadised Mohudza, in the west. Ndok Aiso identity emerges in Latsomo as Hitatc and Meshi are assimilated.
-500: Komeyach speakers throw off nomad-Mohudza shackles. Conflict with settled Mohudza to the east exhausts both peoples.
-400: Last great nomadic empire of the dark ages, as Habeo united and conquer Komeyech, Aiwa Hitatc (who by now have been mostly supplanted by Ndok Aiso and Daiadak), Ndok Aiso and Mohudza. Unity quickly breaks down into fluctuating alliances.
-300-100: Unified Ndok Aiso state dominates the Aiwa, but stagnates. Hitatc invade from the south again, but as usual are unable to establish unified organisation. They assimilate into the native population; by now, primacy over the valley rests with Huyfarah.
Wrt to "People X" - there are many possibilities, but how about Ndak descendents from the north-west? They didn't all live on the river, after all.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
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Salmoneus
- Sanno
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- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Furthermore, inspired by our conversation with Legion, I'd kind of like to do an Adata-daughter. I know, I know, it's full. However, have you got an Adata-daughter in the high Eiwel Gourun? If not, I'd like to claim it.
[what we've been calling the 'Eiwel Gourun' (etc) seems actually to be a fairly big area, since its western limits aren't shown on most of our maps. I've not seen the final map yet, of course, but, going by the north bank, there's going to be four different areas:
1: the western bank of the Ziphe - Ndok Aiso, Mohudza, Meshi. Good agricultural land, though not so good as Latsomo.
2: straddling the Meshi river (whateveritsnameis) - Meshi, Komeyech (or whatever they will be called), some nomadic Mohudza, probably some Damak (who live in at least some of the mountains north of the valley), probably some Hitatc. Poor agricultural land, except near the river itself.
3: further west, as the valley narrows - "Habeo" (not a unified group), some nomadic Mohudza, probably some Komeyech, maybe some Damak, maybe other people. Very poor agricultural land, mostly fairly barren steppe, but agriculture possible (and prosperous - soil is dry, but fertile) in irrigated riverine areas
4: the plateau in the far west.
According to existing maps, areas 1 and 2 mostly resist Daiadak expansion - probably because they are too populated to conquer easily, but too uncivilised to have anything worth plundering. Area three, however, is conquered - I'm not entirely sure why, but why not? Maybe there's valuable ore up on the plateau or something.
My proposed daughter would be in area 3. My vision of this is that once the Athale empire recedes, what is left is a divided society - a variety of tribal confederations loosely scattered, with 'Daiadak' cities in irrigated areas. Athale probably found it an easy area to subdue, but a hard one to control, with sporadic tribal uprisings. Their successors are effectively beseiged in their cities, although they like to pretend they control the area.
[what we've been calling the 'Eiwel Gourun' (etc) seems actually to be a fairly big area, since its western limits aren't shown on most of our maps. I've not seen the final map yet, of course, but, going by the north bank, there's going to be four different areas:
1: the western bank of the Ziphe - Ndok Aiso, Mohudza, Meshi. Good agricultural land, though not so good as Latsomo.
2: straddling the Meshi river (whateveritsnameis) - Meshi, Komeyech (or whatever they will be called), some nomadic Mohudza, probably some Damak (who live in at least some of the mountains north of the valley), probably some Hitatc. Poor agricultural land, except near the river itself.
3: further west, as the valley narrows - "Habeo" (not a unified group), some nomadic Mohudza, probably some Komeyech, maybe some Damak, maybe other people. Very poor agricultural land, mostly fairly barren steppe, but agriculture possible (and prosperous - soil is dry, but fertile) in irrigated riverine areas
4: the plateau in the far west.
According to existing maps, areas 1 and 2 mostly resist Daiadak expansion - probably because they are too populated to conquer easily, but too uncivilised to have anything worth plundering. Area three, however, is conquered - I'm not entirely sure why, but why not? Maybe there's valuable ore up on the plateau or something.
My proposed daughter would be in area 3. My vision of this is that once the Athale empire recedes, what is left is a divided society - a variety of tribal confederations loosely scattered, with 'Daiadak' cities in irrigated areas. Athale probably found it an easy area to subdue, but a hard one to control, with sporadic tribal uprisings. Their successors are effectively beseiged in their cities, although they like to pretend they control the area.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Very interesting. My only concern is that Radius has Huyfarah unified and expanding much earlier than I expected-- my impression was that that didn't happen until the Balanin dynasty came along, and for various reasons I'd imagined that somewhere around -100.
Hüwryaasûr, priestess of the four hegemons, wrote:Ryunshurshuroshan, the floating lizard
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dunomapuka
- Avisaru
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- Location: Brooklyn, NY
I think he must be basing it off of zompist's write-up on the Fáralo page, which gives us our general historical framework:Corumayas wrote:Very interesting. My only concern is that Radius has Huyfarah unified and expanding much earlier than I expected-- my impression was that that didn't happen until the Balanin dynasty came along, and for various reasons I'd imagined that somewhere around -100.
I think all the "years ago" in this text are measured from 130 YP.About 1500 years ago, the Faraghin put aside their usual disunity and conquered the Oltu valley and its capital, Ussor (Uksaur), and then the Edák littoral, which they renamed Huyfárah, the Faraghin Coast. This time, the horsemen were here to stay. Edák society— highly stratified and urbanized— was transformed. As nomads, the Faraghin believe not in real estate and civil protection but in moveable property and honor. For the settled Edák, the archetypical villainy was murder; for the Faraghin it was theft. (Murder could be paid for.)
If this seems ‘barbaric’, we should recognize as well that the Faraghin were much more individualistic and enterprising than the Edák, whose devotion to stability led less to peace than to stagnation. It was possible to move up in Faraghin society, and trade and markets developed here, while the Eigə valley was still dominated by archaic command economies.
The great vice of the Faraghin warrior class was a disinclination, on the death of a respected king, to support their unproven young heirs. The unity of the Oltu lasted only a century; the region then became a squabbling patchwork of baronies; if some ambitious ruler unified them his kingdom would collapse in a few generations. Once the littoral was even temporarily reconquered by a resurgent Kazəgad.
Nonetheless, trade continued to flourish, and the people of Huyfárah developed a great skill in navigation, and explored the littoral a great distance to the east and south.
...
In the last centuries Huyfárah has turned to empire-building. First the Dagæm islands were occupied— a useful acquisition for a maritime empire; then the lands fo the Feråjin just to the east, then Kazəgad— which was by now, however, only a poor shadow of its former glory.
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Radius Solis
- Smeric
- Posts: 1248
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
- Location: Si'ahl
- Contact:
Yeah, there's definitely going to be some dates that need changing, once we figure out more of the situation. That's not a problem. And yes, I was basing a lot of the timing on the Faralo history you quote, which does not get any more specific than "in the last centuries", so I figured there was some room to play with. Unless Zomp wants to nail down some specifics, which would be welcome but not critical.
It should be easy enough to reverse-engineer.
Adāta /a e i o u/ have values [a E i O u].
I have skipped some changes that are present in the actual soundchange file but which do not get used.
### Lenition of aspirated and voiced stops
[p_h t_h k_h] > [f T x]
[b d g] > [B D G]
### Diphthongisation
[i u] > [j w] (prevocalic, or intervocalic, or in postvocalic final position)
[i: u:] > [i:j u:w] (prevocalic)
[i: u:] > [ji: wu:] (postvocalic)
[Ei Ej] > [ej]
[ai aj] > [Ej]
[eu ew] > [ow]
[au aw] > [Ow]
[Oa Oa: OE OE: Oe] > [O a: E E: e] (postconsonantal)
[Oa Oa: OE OE: Oe] > [wo wa: wE wE: we:] (postvocalic)
[Ea] > [E]
[EO] > [Ew]
[i u] > [j w] (postvocalic)
[ji ji:] > [i i:]
### Short vowel shifts
[i u] > [I U]
### Long vowel shifts
[i: E: a: O: u:] > [i e a o u]
[ii ee EE aa OO oo uu] > [i e E a O o u]
### Nasalisation
[i e E a O o u] > [i~ E~ E~ A~ O~ O~ u~] (before nasal consonants)
### Syllabic consonants
[j w] > [I U] (after consonants)
[Um Un Ul Ur] > [m= n= l= r=]
### Consonant apocope and epenthesis
Voiceless consonants disappear before consonants other than [n l r j w], or in final position.
Nasal consonants after any consonant become syllabic.
Nasal consonants after any oral vowel and before consonants other than [l r j w] become [A~].
[n m] in final position after any oral vowel becomes [E~ O~].
Any remaining nasal consonants disappear before consonants other than [l r j w].
[U] is inserted after voiced consonants other than [l r] before consonants other than [l r j w].
[l] becomes [j] before consonants other than [j w].
[U] is inserted after voiced consonants in final position.
[j w] > [I U] before consonants other than [j w].
### Nasal vowel mergers
[i~ u~] > [jE~ wO~]
### Denasalisation
[E~ A~ O~] > [E a O] (before nasal consonants)
### Reduplication of short words
Words with at least one consonant and with only one vowel (either [I] or [U]) and where the vowel is in final position gain a suffixed augment consisting of the first consonant followed by that vowel.
### Fall of the yers
[I] > [jI]
[U] > [wU] (postvocalic, or in initial position)
[m= n= l= r=] > [Um Un Ul Ur]
[jI wU] > [je wo] (for extremely short words like the 1SG)
[I U] > [I_X U_X] (before vowels other than [I U], ignoring intervening consonants)
[I U] > [e o] (before [I_X U_X], ignoring intervening consonants)
[I U] > [e o] (before other [I U], ignoring intervening consonants)
[I I_X] > Ø
[U U_X] > Ø (except before [j])
[wUj wU_Xj] > [w]
[jj ww] > [j w]
### Further diphthong shifts
[ji wu] > [i u]
[eE oO Oo] > [e o o]
### Regressive voicing assimilation
Voiceless consonants are voiced when followed by voiced consonants other than [l r j w], ignoring intervening [j w].
Voiceless fricatives are voiced when followed by voiced consonants other than [j w], ignoring intervening [j w].
Voiced consonants are devoiced, if possible (i.e. excluding nasals and approximants) when followed by voiceless consonants, ignoring intervening [j w].
### Progressive voicing assimilation
Voiceless consonants are voiced when preceded by voiced consonants other than [j w], ignoring intervening [j w].
### Semivowel fortition and aphaeresis
[j w] > Ø (in initial preconsonantal position)
[w] > [B] (preconsonantal, or in final position)
[j] > [j\] (postvocalic and preconsonantal, or in final position)
### Palatalisations
[n t d k g T D s z x G h l] > [J ts\ dz\ c J\ s\ z\ S Z ç j\ ç L] (when followed by [j] or [i])
### Partial /j ʝ/ merger
[j\] > [j] (after [e E E~ a A~ O~ O o u] and before consonants other than [j w] or in final position)
[jj\] > [j\]
[ji] > [i]
Adāta /a e i o u/ have values [a E i O u].
I have skipped some changes that are present in the actual soundchange file but which do not get used.
### Lenition of aspirated and voiced stops
[p_h t_h k_h] > [f T x]
[b d g] > [B D G]
### Diphthongisation
[i u] > [j w] (prevocalic, or intervocalic, or in postvocalic final position)
[i: u:] > [i:j u:w] (prevocalic)
[i: u:] > [ji: wu:] (postvocalic)
[Ei Ej] > [ej]
[ai aj] > [Ej]
[eu ew] > [ow]
[au aw] > [Ow]
[Oa Oa: OE OE: Oe] > [O a: E E: e] (postconsonantal)
[Oa Oa: OE OE: Oe] > [wo wa: wE wE: we:] (postvocalic)
[Ea] > [E]
[EO] > [Ew]
[i u] > [j w] (postvocalic)
[ji ji:] > [i i:]
### Short vowel shifts
[i u] > [I U]
### Long vowel shifts
[i: E: a: O: u:] > [i e a o u]
[ii ee EE aa OO oo uu] > [i e E a O o u]
### Nasalisation
[i e E a O o u] > [i~ E~ E~ A~ O~ O~ u~] (before nasal consonants)
### Syllabic consonants
[j w] > [I U] (after consonants)
[Um Un Ul Ur] > [m= n= l= r=]
### Consonant apocope and epenthesis
Voiceless consonants disappear before consonants other than [n l r j w], or in final position.
Nasal consonants after any consonant become syllabic.
Nasal consonants after any oral vowel and before consonants other than [l r j w] become [A~].
[n m] in final position after any oral vowel becomes [E~ O~].
Any remaining nasal consonants disappear before consonants other than [l r j w].
[U] is inserted after voiced consonants other than [l r] before consonants other than [l r j w].
[l] becomes [j] before consonants other than [j w].
[U] is inserted after voiced consonants in final position.
[j w] > [I U] before consonants other than [j w].
### Nasal vowel mergers
[i~ u~] > [jE~ wO~]
### Denasalisation
[E~ A~ O~] > [E a O] (before nasal consonants)
### Reduplication of short words
Words with at least one consonant and with only one vowel (either [I] or [U]) and where the vowel is in final position gain a suffixed augment consisting of the first consonant followed by that vowel.
### Fall of the yers
[I] > [jI]
[U] > [wU] (postvocalic, or in initial position)
[m= n= l= r=] > [Um Un Ul Ur]
[jI wU] > [je wo] (for extremely short words like the 1SG)
[I U] > [I_X U_X] (before vowels other than [I U], ignoring intervening consonants)
[I U] > [e o] (before [I_X U_X], ignoring intervening consonants)
[I U] > [e o] (before other [I U], ignoring intervening consonants)
[I I_X] > Ø
[U U_X] > Ø (except before [j])
[wUj wU_Xj] > [w]
[jj ww] > [j w]
### Further diphthong shifts
[ji wu] > [i u]
[eE oO Oo] > [e o o]
### Regressive voicing assimilation
Voiceless consonants are voiced when followed by voiced consonants other than [l r j w], ignoring intervening [j w].
Voiceless fricatives are voiced when followed by voiced consonants other than [j w], ignoring intervening [j w].
Voiced consonants are devoiced, if possible (i.e. excluding nasals and approximants) when followed by voiceless consonants, ignoring intervening [j w].
### Progressive voicing assimilation
Voiceless consonants are voiced when preceded by voiced consonants other than [j w], ignoring intervening [j w].
### Semivowel fortition and aphaeresis
[j w] > Ø (in initial preconsonantal position)
[w] > [B] (preconsonantal, or in final position)
[j] > [j\] (postvocalic and preconsonantal, or in final position)
### Palatalisations
[n t d k g T D s z x G h l] > [J ts\ dz\ c J\ s\ z\ S Z ç j\ ç L] (when followed by [j] or [i])
### Partial /j ʝ/ merger
[j\] > [j] (after [e E E~ a A~ O~ O o u] and before consonants other than [j w] or in final position)
[jj\] > [j\]
[ji] > [i]
書不盡言、言不盡意
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A pocketful of songs.
- Sanci
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:12 am
For your consideration, here are a few maps. First is a physical map of the central part of the continent, with additions of lakes and some small rivers as new material.
Next are two maps showing a proposal for the rest of the world, assuming I'm right that this map shows the extent of the world that's mapped now. The first map shows the continents with mountains and major rivers, with volcanoes as red dots, and some arbitrary names until ones can be worked out in Akanan languages; the other also shows tectonic plates, with rifts in blue, transform faults in green, convergent faults in red, rifts still opening in dotted blue, recently fused plates bordered with dotted red, and arrows showing the directions and, by the lengths of their shafts, relative speeds of the plates.
Next are two maps showing a proposal for the rest of the world, assuming I'm right that this map shows the extent of the world that's mapped now. The first map shows the continents with mountains and major rivers, with volcanoes as red dots, and some arbitrary names until ones can be worked out in Akanan languages; the other also shows tectonic plates, with rifts in blue, transform faults in green, convergent faults in red, rifts still opening in dotted blue, recently fused plates bordered with dotted red, and arrows showing the directions and, by the lengths of their shafts, relative speeds of the plates.
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Radius Solis
- Smeric
- Posts: 1248
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
- Location: Si'ahl
- Contact:
Well, first of all, they look awesome and realistic. Thanks a lot! And welcome to the team!Mr. Zetler wrote:For your consideration, here are a few maps.
Second, I was just talking with Radius on IRC and we came across a few issues with these maps:
- Radius has been working on a revision of the original map for some time, based on the idea that we should adjust the outer areas of our continent to make it tectonically more plausible. He's going to post a sketch of that soon, hopefully tomorrow. It includes a much higher mountain range in the west of the central continent, continuing further north than before. Also, he's got rid of Zeluzh as a continent, instead adding a continent further east. That sketch does not say anything about the other side of the planet, but I at least would like to see it before we settle on an official world map. (I started thinking about a world map myself a while ago, but put it on hold in order to wait for Radius' ideas)
- Another point is that you located Anatolionesia southwest of the central continent, but the Erhadzy grammar specifies that it should be in the far east (and I've been assuming that it's in the northern hemisphere). Probably at the west coast of Radius' new eastern continent...
- We were both of the opinion that our focus continent should be "the main continent" of Akana, whatever that means. Of course it has the correct size on your map, assuming that the planet is similar to earth. But it looks rather small compared to Zeluzia, for example. Maybe it would be possible to append a large continent to the southwest of "Aiwia" instead of having it separate in the southeast?
- We'll have a look at Radius' upcoming sketch. Of course further comments on Mr. Zetler's maps are welcome as well.
- We have a group discussion on which features we like and which ones should be changed. And we decide collectively.
- We assign tasks to certain people in order to create a good world map that everybody's happy with. (If you would create another tectonic map based on the group decision we're going to take, I for one would be very glad. What I'd like to do myself is to create some more detailed area maps for a historical atlas.)
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
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Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
oh em geeMr. Zetler wrote:For your consideration, here are a few maps. First is a physical map of the central part of the continent, with additions of lakes and some small rivers as new material.
Next are two maps showing a proposal for the rest of the world, assuming I'm right that this map shows the extent of the world that's mapped now. The first map shows the continents with mountains and major rivers, with volcanoes as red dots, and some arbitrary names until ones can be worked out in Akanan languages; the other also shows tectonic plates, with rifts in blue, transform faults in green, convergent faults in red, rifts still opening in dotted blue, recently fused plates bordered with dotted red, and arrows showing the directions and, by the lengths of their shafts, relative speeds of the plates.
mind if I steal that style of plate marking?
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Salmoneus
- Sanno
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Mr Zetler: I'm impressed both by your maps and by the effort you've put in - but if we don't communicate more, there's a real risk of effort being wasted.
For what it's worth, I would side with Radius' map on the higher Western mountains since I think that makes more sense given the history.
However, I would side with MrZ.'s map on Zeluzh - I like it there and see no reason to get rid of it - as I've pointed out, Africa is a good reason why we shouldn't just get rid of continents because they're 'ugly' and 'curvy'.
Furthermore, I don't care about 'our' continent being the 'main' one.
For what it's worth, I would side with Radius' map on the higher Western mountains since I think that makes more sense given the history.
However, I would side with MrZ.'s map on Zeluzh - I like it there and see no reason to get rid of it - as I've pointed out, Africa is a good reason why we shouldn't just get rid of continents because they're 'ugly' and 'curvy'.
Furthermore, I don't care about 'our' continent being the 'main' one.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
-
Radius Solis
- Smeric
- Posts: 1248
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
- Location: Si'ahl
- Contact:
Okay, so basically this is the new map idea that I've been working on. There's still a lot of refinement left to do, particularly in the east, but I'm going to hold off on that until we decide what we want to do with landforms. So consider it a sketch only.
Major points:
* To get this I first drew plate boundaries on the old map, and worked from there. (Purple lines are plate boundaries, red lines are volcanically active subduction-type mountain ranges, and the cyan is the high range.)
* The high mountains in the northwest are the result of an active plate collision, as shown.
* I did get rid of Zeluzh, but redrew it further east and differently shaped. I also added the edge of a presumed Eastern Continent, which tapers down to become the Ttiruku Islands. Given that the original setting description for the Isles languages calls them the Western Isles, the languages of which were all supposed to have come from a continent to their immediate east, which Zompist presumably was unaware of when he drew that part of the map, I thought it a good idea to add a continent out there.
* The mountain range of Siixtaguna is merely unfinished, I do not intend it to be as small as shown.
* I redrew the islands somewhat, and added a lot of little ones to the sea in there - a sort of northernish polynesia - again, to better match the Isles setting description. And to provide a good island-hopping network for the Isles langs to get where they are. Most other coastlines are nearly identical to the original.
* The Aiwa valley now bends north in its uppermost reaches; I thought it would be good to give it a little extra length. The Eiwel Gouron is fairly high in elevation, as can be seen. The Etewg Padaem is also hilly.
* The colors indicate a rough guide to elevation, as follows:
green - mostly below 2500 feet
pale brown - mostly between 2500 and 5000 feet
brown - mostly between 5000 and 10,000
dark brown - above 10,000
Metric people can use the figures 750m, 1500m, and 3000m respectively.
Major points:
* To get this I first drew plate boundaries on the old map, and worked from there. (Purple lines are plate boundaries, red lines are volcanically active subduction-type mountain ranges, and the cyan is the high range.)
* The high mountains in the northwest are the result of an active plate collision, as shown.
* I did get rid of Zeluzh, but redrew it further east and differently shaped. I also added the edge of a presumed Eastern Continent, which tapers down to become the Ttiruku Islands. Given that the original setting description for the Isles languages calls them the Western Isles, the languages of which were all supposed to have come from a continent to their immediate east, which Zompist presumably was unaware of when he drew that part of the map, I thought it a good idea to add a continent out there.
* The mountain range of Siixtaguna is merely unfinished, I do not intend it to be as small as shown.
* I redrew the islands somewhat, and added a lot of little ones to the sea in there - a sort of northernish polynesia - again, to better match the Isles setting description. And to provide a good island-hopping network for the Isles langs to get where they are. Most other coastlines are nearly identical to the original.
* The Aiwa valley now bends north in its uppermost reaches; I thought it would be good to give it a little extra length. The Eiwel Gouron is fairly high in elevation, as can be seen. The Etewg Padaem is also hilly.
* The colors indicate a rough guide to elevation, as follows:
green - mostly below 2500 feet
pale brown - mostly between 2500 and 5000 feet
brown - mostly between 5000 and 10,000
dark brown - above 10,000
Metric people can use the figures 750m, 1500m, and 3000m respectively.
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Salmoneus
- Sanno
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: One of the dark places of the world
You know, I find it hard to avoid the thought that, in light of MZ's maps' total incredibleness, maybe we should ditch our efforts and go with his.
The problem is the mountain heights, for me. I don't see how Zetler's map really explains the topography of the Aiwa valley. Moreover, I do think that the Western mountains (which have never been crossed) should be higher than the Northern mountains (which we know have been crossed).
Might there be any way to incorporate those changes?
As for the placement of Erhadzy and the Isles proto-lang: personally, I think that some flexibility may be required. In particular, Erhadzy is a long way in the future and we've not worked out any intervening history - I'm sure that given this there may be some flexibility in altering its descriptions in line with what we decide between now and then.
EDIT:
so in summary:
MZ map: generally awesome. eastern islands dealt with better than in Radius' map.
Radius map: better topography.
Also: if there's a divergent fault in the Tjakori valley, why is it a valley, and not a chain of rift mountains?
The problem is the mountain heights, for me. I don't see how Zetler's map really explains the topography of the Aiwa valley. Moreover, I do think that the Western mountains (which have never been crossed) should be higher than the Northern mountains (which we know have been crossed).
Might there be any way to incorporate those changes?
As for the placement of Erhadzy and the Isles proto-lang: personally, I think that some flexibility may be required. In particular, Erhadzy is a long way in the future and we've not worked out any intervening history - I'm sure that given this there may be some flexibility in altering its descriptions in line with what we decide between now and then.
EDIT:
so in summary:
MZ map: generally awesome. eastern islands dealt with better than in Radius' map.
Radius map: better topography.
Also: if there's a divergent fault in the Tjakori valley, why is it a valley, and not a chain of rift mountains?
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Mr. Zetler's map is gorgeous— really excellent work.
I have a couple of concerns though...
First, the continent we've been working on ("Aiwia" is a clever name for it by the way) seems too small. Personally I pictured the Aiwa as comparable to the Ganges (though farther north). India is about 20° wide; the map has the Aiwa valley about 15° wide. So I'd make it about 133% wider.
Second, and related: we presumably focus on Aiwia because it's the Eurasia of Akana— it has the most advanced cultures. But geographically there's no good reason for this. It should have the largest east-west swatch of mild climate, but there seem to be larger zones elsewhere: southern Zeluzia, Arctica + Andea. The easiest solution would be to make some of these areas smaller.
As a minor point, it seems to me that you're drawing tectonic lines as if there's no distortion near the poles. At latitude 60°, for instance, horizontal differences are just half that at the equator; at 80%, about one sixth. This is hard to get right, but it might be worth making, say, polar maps for the upper 30° of latitude to make sure things look all right.
(By the way, Radius, I knew there was a Proto-Isles homeland, but I couldn't get information from Team One at the time where it was. So I left it undefined.)
I have a couple of concerns though...
First, the continent we've been working on ("Aiwia" is a clever name for it by the way) seems too small. Personally I pictured the Aiwa as comparable to the Ganges (though farther north). India is about 20° wide; the map has the Aiwa valley about 15° wide. So I'd make it about 133% wider.
Second, and related: we presumably focus on Aiwia because it's the Eurasia of Akana— it has the most advanced cultures. But geographically there's no good reason for this. It should have the largest east-west swatch of mild climate, but there seem to be larger zones elsewhere: southern Zeluzia, Arctica + Andea. The easiest solution would be to make some of these areas smaller.
As a minor point, it seems to me that you're drawing tectonic lines as if there's no distortion near the poles. At latitude 60°, for instance, horizontal differences are just half that at the equator; at 80%, about one sixth. This is hard to get right, but it might be worth making, say, polar maps for the upper 30° of latitude to make sure things look all right.
(By the way, Radius, I knew there was a Proto-Isles homeland, but I couldn't get information from Team One at the time where it was. So I left it undefined.)
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Salmoneus
- Sanno
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Re the Diamondtry:
While I can buy the argument that an east-west extent is indeed helpful, I can't buy that it is the be-all and end-all. Routes of human migration, distribution of domesticatable animals and of agriculturally useful plants, or the fall-out zones of major destructive events (supervolcanoes, asteroid impacts etc) or even distribution of dangerous animals - all could alter the distribution of human progress.
While I can buy the argument that an east-west extent is indeed helpful, I can't buy that it is the be-all and end-all. Routes of human migration, distribution of domesticatable animals and of agriculturally useful plants, or the fall-out zones of major destructive events (supervolcanoes, asteroid impacts etc) or even distribution of dangerous animals - all could alter the distribution of human progress.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
My two cents:
- I agree that the name "Aiwia" is pretty, but I think the last thing this project needs is another A???a name- "Ayasthi is a language descended from Adata, spoken in the continent of Aiwia on the planet Akana" is just a-overload.
- Zomp makes a good point about having a big expanse of east-west oriented land. IMO, our continent could be extended off westwards quite some way, if neccessary making the sea just to the west of the "Western Civs" some kind of bight or gulf. That would give plenty of room for cross-fertilisation of ideas, livestock and crops and give us more room to play with linguistically without having to resort to transoceanic migrations all the time.
- One problem I have with MZ's map is that IMO there are too many random small continents/continentoids scattered about. I do like his island chains a lot, though.
- Sal's point about the mountains is an important one. I'd like those to be retained (if nothing else then so I don't have to re-think or reposition the Proto-Westerners )
- Axing/moving Zeluzh is, IMO, a Good Thing, as it makes that area a little less crowded and a little more believable.
- I agree that the name "Aiwia" is pretty, but I think the last thing this project needs is another A???a name- "Ayasthi is a language descended from Adata, spoken in the continent of Aiwia on the planet Akana" is just a-overload.
- Zomp makes a good point about having a big expanse of east-west oriented land. IMO, our continent could be extended off westwards quite some way, if neccessary making the sea just to the west of the "Western Civs" some kind of bight or gulf. That would give plenty of room for cross-fertilisation of ideas, livestock and crops and give us more room to play with linguistically without having to resort to transoceanic migrations all the time.
- One problem I have with MZ's map is that IMO there are too many random small continents/continentoids scattered about. I do like his island chains a lot, though.
- Sal's point about the mountains is an important one. I'd like those to be retained (if nothing else then so I don't have to re-think or reposition the Proto-Westerners
)- Axing/moving Zeluzh is, IMO, a Good Thing, as it makes that area a little less crowded and a little more believable.
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)
-
Salmoneus
- Sanno
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Well, our tall western mountains would eliminate the advantage of a further western expanse, diamondically, would they not? Unless we want to change the history to actually involve outside influences, that is.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
-
Radius Solis
- Smeric
- Posts: 1248
- Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
- Location: Si'ahl
- Contact:
Not more than the Himalayas limit the advantage on Earth - not enough to be a problem, if Diamond's hypothesis is correct. There are paths around the big mountains (which Dewrad recently named the Red Mountains in IRC) to the south and north, and the southern route in particular is close to being an open highway between all three cultural spheres. If ancients from the Middle East and India could get back and forth across all the ruggedness of Iran and Afghanistan, the layout here will present no trouble at all. Rathedan's got good passes, after all.Salmoneus wrote:Well, our tall western mountains would eliminate the advantage of a further western expanse, diamondically, would they not? Unless we want to change the history to actually involve outside influences, that is.
I'd definitely be up for having additional closeby landmass in the West. Or for moving the Eastern continent up much closer to ours. Either way would give us all the east-west expanse we need.
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Also, I agree with Dew in that, personally, I've had just about enough of aXXXa names in this conworld....
I only like "Akana" for being easier to type; the original Kechæn@, while not a Michelangelo sound sculpture, at least feels a lot less boilerplate. And there's nothing more cliche and boilerplate than -ia and seeing lots of it on a map is kinda off-putting. But that's just me...
The first two of those are tied to the east-west thing anyway. I agree that Diamond's thesis shouldn't be taken as rock solid... there are just too few data points. Special reasons could be devised why Aiwia developed first; but at this point it's easy enough to modify the continental maps so so special reasons are needed.Salmoneus wrote:Re the Diamondtry:
While I can buy the argument that an east-west extent is indeed helpful, I can't buy that it is the be-all and end-all. Routes of human migration, distribution of domesticatable animals and of agriculturally useful plants, or the fall-out zones of major destructive events (supervolcanoes, asteroid impacts etc) or even distribution of dangerous animals - all could alter the distribution of human progress.
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A pocketful of songs.
- Sanci
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:12 am
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Here and here are a couple more proposals incorporating some: less continentoids, bigger Eigeland, more land on the west of it, eastern Anatolionesia, smaller and colder Arctica, and Radius' bigger mountains and more northwesterly valley. The second also has Arctica as Radius' eastern continent and his more northeastern Zeluzia. Of these two, I'd say I like the first a little more, if only 'cause a close trio of continents in one hemisphere, the northwest one well-developed, and two others plus some islands in the other seems overly familiar.
Oh, certainly not. I'd be strange if you all just accepted the first thing I posted. If no one else wants to, sure, I'd like to design the tectonics for the final layout.cedh audmanh wrote:I hope you don't mind us to criticise your work and to possibly demand redrawing. [...] (If you would create another tectonic map based on the group decision we're going to take, I for one would be very glad.
Pardon if I'm too new to say so, but I agree.Salmoneous wrote:Furthermore, I don't care about 'our' continent being the 'main' one.
Actually, I think that's a standard; or, at least, I've seen it on a couple other maps.Drydic Guy wrote:mind if I steal that style of plate marking?
Last edited by A pocketful of songs. on Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dunomapuka
- Avisaru
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:42 pm
- Location: Brooklyn, NY
Agreed. So let's think of a better name (though "Eigeland" is cute). We should determine:Dewrad wrote:- I agree that the name "Aiwia" is pretty, but I think the last thing this project needs is another A???a name- "Ayasthi is a language descended from Adata, spoken in the continent of Aiwia on the planet Akana" is just a-overload.
-At what point did it become useful to invent a term that covers the entire continent?
-Which people did this? (my money's on the Fáralo, who are the great mariners of the Classical Age, but even if their name becomes our conventional lable, it's worth noting that this should not remain utterly stable and timeless within Akana. Placenames change a lot.)
-What does their name for it mean, or what is it borrowed from?
In our own world, "America" comes from the name of a mariner involved in its exploration, "Asia" and "Africa" originally denoted parts of Asia and Africa that abut Europe, "Europe" comes from God knows where (see Wikipedia), and "Australia" is a generic formation (from our main Classical language) meaning "south."
(talk about an excess of aXXXa names...)
Zetler: I like the third proposal; the trio of continents allows for some cool cultural exchange and provides a good east-west spread. It's possible the other two continents, in the west, remain uninhabited until more advanced civilizations discover them. I picture the Isles-Urheimat being on the edge of the NE continent.