Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:55 pm

That makes sense... though from ghur's note it appears that the Ndok extended divinity to reigning kings as well (to the extent that they're often honored alongside the four major gods at an annual festival); maybe they go in the second tier along with their predecessors-- or this could depend on the traditions of each kingdom/city, or something.

Something else that struck me in looking at the history: you have Latsomo ruled by Kasadgad until -1215. My impression was that Tsinakan's empire had disintegrated well before this (by the time of the Faraghin and Hitatc invasions of ca -1400 at the very latest, and possibly even before -1600). In any case there's clearly some more history to be filled in there. Of course that needn't require pushing the dynastic history earlier-- though we could change the number of dynasties to fit in more-- but maybe Ngahexoldod was subject to another kingdom before -1215, or maybe there simply weren't records of the earlier rulers.

Anyway, during the centuries after Tsinakan, it looks like the Andagg (during the period -1900-1600) and the Hitatc (from -1700 on) would both have an impact on Latsomo. (There should probably also be mention of the short-lived Habeo conquest of Latsomo ca -400, according to the timeline-- it looks like they, or their clients, might be the tenth dynasty.)

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:40 pm

Alrighty folks, I'm outta here. I'll be back online probably about the 10th or 11th of August - from Seattle instead of Tucson. Have fun!

Also, remember to save local copies of the Naidda and/or NT dictionaries if you don't want to lose them for a few weeks. Same goes for Pencek, Puoni, etc. The webspace will go down sometime this month and these things will be offline for a bit.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:43 am

Have a safe journey!

I've updated the PPI lexicon now with the new terms, though I dropped some because I thought the derivation seemed odd or because it seemed to be too oligosynthetic. I have also decided to eliminate geminate consonants, at least for plosives/non-continuants. (PPI isn't meant to have moraic timing... at least, not at this stage. A more accurate representation of the vowels /i a u i: a: u:/ might be /I 3\ U i a u/.)

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:51 pm

Radius Solis wrote:Alrighty folks, I'm outta here. I'll be back online probably about the 10th or 11th of August - from Seattle instead of Tucson. Have fun!

Bon voyage!

kodé · Post by **kodé** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:55 pm

Radius Solis wrote:Alrighty folks, I'm outta here. I'll be back online probably about the 10th or 11th of August - from Seattle instead of Tucson. Have fun!

Yay! Hopefully by the time you come back, I'll have something to show, aside from being either stoned or sleeping... gah, what a summer. I can only hope that phar is not suffering the post-grad blues as badly as I am...

Also, can this post count as my contribution to this thread for the previous few weeks? Woo, breakdowns...

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:23 pm

Hey, can we turn off guest editing on the wiki? It looks like we had a page defaced the other day.

I've been trying to work out the Isthmus verbal system... the morphology looks very Indo-European at the moment (root + stem vowel + suffixes), but anyway I'm trying to decide between two explanations for a couple of verbs with irregular stem vowels.

In Faraghin, most verbs end in -an (< Proto-Isthmus *-an, *-en, or *-on), but a few end in -en (< PI *-in) or -in (< PI *-jVn or *-ujn). The ones in -in can be derived from a root-final *j + the regular stem vowel, so it's no problem. The two verbs in -en are trickier; at first I treated them as loans from Feråjin, which lacks the *e > a shift, and called the regular stem vowel *-e. But recently I started thinking it would be better if they were derived internally to Faraghin... in which case I need a reason for the change of stem vowel.

Now, Far. has a causative suffix -oin, which could be the regular verbal stem vowel + *-i- or *-j-... if this was added to the root without an intervening stem vowel it could produce Far. -en. Maybe this is an older way of forming causatives? (The verbs in question mean "give" and "color, paint", the second derived from a root that means "red" in Miwan, so the semantics could fit a causative I think.) If so, it makes the history of causative/valency-increasing morphology in Isthmus somewhat complex, since I also have an even earlier verbal prefix *Vs- in PI that may serve a similar function.

There's also one verb that ends in -el and one in -ač, so some explanation for those will be needed as well....

Post by **zompist** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:14 pm

Corumayas wrote:Now, Far. has a causative suffix -oin, which could be the regular verbal stem vowel + *-i- or *-j-...

Where does the -o- come from then? This is why I like to have at least one intervocalic consonant loss... then the earlier suffix could be -oC-.

There's also one verb that ends in -el and one in -ač, so some explanation for those will be needed as well....

My bad. I added -an to both.

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:13 pm

zompist wrote:
Corumayas wrote:Now, Far. has a causative suffix -oin, which could be the regular verbal stem vowel + *-i- or *-j-...
Where does the -o- come from then? This is why I like to have at least one intervocalic consonant loss... then the earlier suffix could be -oC-.

I was thinking it could be the same "stem vowel" that's -a- in the regular verbs; Proto-Isthmus *a *e *o all become Faraghin /a/, but /o/ before *i or *j.

There's also one verb that ends in -el and one in -ač, so some explanation for those will be needed as well....
My bad. I added -an to both.

Well, that simplifies things.

(Now, can I find anything remotely parallel in Miwan...?)

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:44 am

No thread activity in over two weeks.

Ah well. In any case, I'm back now. At least, I'm certainly available... but I don't know how long before I return to active Akana stuff. The list of things I desperately need to get done in the Real World is huge.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:40 am

I've been playing with my little sketch project (a Peninsular language) recently:

ˈaɹːo ˈfiɲi | ˈθojɛˌɹa ˈlaɹoθˌθo ˈsonaˌnɰi ˈfinã ˈsomeɪ θoɹɰiˌskahɔ̃dɜ ˈtsitsiˌskɹi mã ˈʍisːã ˌmã ˈθoɹɰiˌsjɛlsko

ˈʍisːɛ ˈkaʊ̯ ˈkatɜˌɹɰisko ‖ ˈθojɛˌɹa la ˈvoje ˌma ˈtsitsiˌskɹi mã ˈʍisːɛˌtɨɹi ɛˈɥiɹi ˌmã ‖ ˈlaɹɔ̃ˌnɰi ma θɜˈkaɹɜˌskɹi ˈʍikʰsɛɹ ˈplɨsɛ ɛˈɥi ˌla ‖ ˈβonɔ̃ ˈʍaɹnaˌslɜma | ˈkaɹɜˌmɹinɛˌlœ maha ‖ ˈkaɹɜˌmɹihjuˌjɛma ɜˈmonɰiˌskɔ̃ ˈmãbraˌnɜlœɪ ˌmaha ‖ ˈtɨɹiju | ˈβonɔ̃ ˈʍaɹnaˌznɜ ɜˈɡotsjɛ ‖

ˈθojɛˌɹa ma ˈsɹɨnɨˌɲɛ̃ ˈmiɹãˌdziskɨhju ˈkaʊ̯ ˈkatɜˌɹɨsko ‖ ˈmãmã | ˈʍisːɛ ˌla ‖ ˈnaje ˌma ˈɛ̃ɲi ˈtangɜˌfaɹɰi ‖ ˈnã ˈʍaɹnaˌsama ˈlãzo nã ˈθoɹɰiˌnɜlœɪ ‖ ˈtɨɹiju | ˈnã ma ˈʍaɹnaˌsanɰi ‖

Possible orthography:

arro fini, thoïera larottho sonanyi finen somêi thoryiscachumdə titiskri-men fyissem-men thoryisielsco.

fyisse caü catəryisco. thoïera la, vojê ma titiskri-men fyissetyri eüiri-men. larunnyi ma thə-carəscri fyisser plyse eüi la! vonom fyarnasləma, carəmrineleu maha? carəmrihiuïema əmonyiscom mambranəloi macha? tyrïu, vonom fyarnaznə əgotie!

thoïera ma srynynien mirendiscychiu caü catərysco. men-men, fyisse la. naïe ma imni tangəfaryi. nam fyarnasama lanzo nam thoryinəloi. tyrïu, nam ma fyarnasanyi.

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:36 pm

I think we've all been a bit listless without our Fearless Leader, no? But there's been a bunch of activity on the wiki, at least.

I think some attention needs to be given to the Siixtaguna/Isles sphere. So I propose a free-form round table discussion here.

My thoughts are as follows:
1. We've been batting around the idea that Siixtaguna is supposed to be a really big empire, right? Well, one thing a really big empire could logically do is interfere in the Edastean sphere. Huyfárah's collapse seems like the right opportunity. So they overtake the Fáralo as the big naval power in the 800 - 1200 period, before being superceded by medieval Kasca. Perhaps they occupy Dagæm, or some patch of Fáralo coastline.
2. The flourishing of Siixtaguna comes as a result of synthesis of Takuña and Mutsinamsys cultures. Writing and philosophy are devised; urbanization; etc. I'm envisioning cities with names like "Octopus Bay."
3. Maybe the date for the Mûtsipsa' grammar should be moved back to the time of Sútapaj. This should all remain a bit flexible for now. Eventually, I think the Takuña will absorb the Mutsinamsys people, due to sheer advantage of numbers, though maybe the Muts. remain on the remote island of Duutkejdih.
4. The Takuña could be the first to circumnavigate the continent, or attempt to, and produce maps spanning at least from northern Peilaš down to Xšali.
5. Lotoka may represent a significant rival. I'm guessing the Nualis are more primitive. I don't know about the various other Isles people.

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:08 pm

Good ideas!

Some questions/thoughts:

-Are we settled on the timeline for the decline of Huyfárah? At one point I think you said you weren't sure about how long it hangs on.

-Maybe we need a catalyst for the expansion of Siixtaguna. A new cooler-climate crop (something like oats or rye?) or agricultural technique might help. So might improved sailing techniques/ship design.

-Mûtsipsa' could become a scholarly and/or liturgical language, while its descendent(s) (if any) become minority language(s) spoken in ethnic enclaves throughout Siixtaguna. But maybe there's still a substantial Mûtsinamtsys population on the large island of Ke'idû'ûs'as for a long time (something like Sinhalese in Sri Lanka?).

-In addition to Lotoka, it looks like the Doroh and Legion's Thumapahìthì might become players in the maritime arena. (The other Isles groups are probably far away enough to be left out for now.) Thumapahìthì seems likely to be the most important in the long term, given its maritime history (presumably all the Isles peoples share this), its strategic location between Siixtaguna and the Aiwa sphere, and its size. I could easily see it becoming the main imperial power instead of (or after?) Siixtaguna, actually.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:38 pm

Zhen Lin wrote:Possible orthography:
arro fini, thoïera larottho sonanyi finen somêi thoryiscachumdə titiskri-men fyissem-men thoryisielsco.

fyisse caü catəryisco. thoïera la, vojê ma titiskri-men fyissetyri eüiri-men. larunnyi ma thə-carəscri fyisser plyse eüi la! vonom fyarnasləma, carəmrineleu maha? carəmrihiuïema əmonyiscom mambranəloi macha? tyrïu, vonom fyarnaznə əgotie!

thoïera ma srynynien mirendiscychiu caü catərysco. men-men, fyisse la. naïe ma imni tangəfaryi. nam fyarnasama lanzo nam thoryinəloi. tyrïu, nam ma fyarnasanyi.

I like the look of this a lot. Please show us more...

boy #12 wrote:I think some attention needs to be given to the Siixtaguna/Isles sphere. So I propose a free-form round table discussion here.

My thoughts are as follows:
1. We've been batting around the idea that Siixtaguna is supposed to be a really big empire, right? Well, one thing a really big empire could logically do is interfere in the Edastean sphere. Huyfárah's collapse seems like the right opportunity. So they overtake the Fáralo as the big naval power in the 800 - 1200 period, before being superceded by medieval Kasca. Perhaps they occupy Dagæm, or some patch of Fáralo coastline.
2. The flourishing of Siixtaguna comes as a result of synthesis of Takuña and Mutsinamsys cultures. Writing and philosophy are devised; urbanization; etc. I'm envisioning cities with names like "Octopus Bay."
3. Maybe the date for the Mûtsipsa' grammar should be moved back to the time of Sútapaj. This should all remain a bit flexible for now. Eventually, I think the Takuña will absorb the Mutsinamsys people, due to sheer advantage of numbers, though maybe the Muts. remain on the remote island of Duutkejdih.
4. The Takuña could be the first to circumnavigate the continent, or attempt to, and produce maps spanning at least from northern Peilaš down to Xšali.
5. Lotoka may represent a significant rival. I'm guessing the Nualis are more primitive. I don't know about the various other Isles people.

1. & 2. Yes, this is exactly what I've been thinking too.
3. I don't know if moving around the date of the grammar is necessary, but that's a rather minor issue I guess. I agree with Corumayas that the Mûtsinamtsys could and should stick around as a distinguishable ethnic group for some centuries at least, probably focused on Ke'idû'ûs'as.
4. Good idea. (Which reminds me that I'm awfully far behind schedule with the revised continent map. Arrgh!)
5. See d) below.

Corumayas wrote:a) -Are we settled on the timeline for the decline of Huyfárah? At one point I think you said you weren't sure about how long it hangs on.
b) -Maybe we need a catalyst for the expansion of Siixtaguna. A new cooler-climate crop (something like oats or rye?) or agricultural technique might help. So might improved sailing techniques/ship design.
c) -Mûtsipsa' could become a scholarly and/or liturgical language, while its descendent(s) (if any) become minority language(s) spoken in ethnic enclaves throughout Siixtaguna. But maybe there's still a substantial Mûtsinamtsys population on the large island of Ke'idû'ûs'as for a long time (something like Sinhalese in Sri Lanka?).
d) -In addition to Lotoka, it looks like the Doroh and Legion's Thumapahìthì might become players in the maritime arena. (The other Isles groups are probably far away enough to be left out for now.) Thumapahìthì seems likely to be the most important in the long term, given its maritime history (presumably all the Isles peoples share this), its strategic location between Siixtaguna and the Aiwa sphere, and its size. I could easily see it becoming the main imperial power instead of (or after?) Siixtaguna, actually.

a) I've long been of the vague opinion that some details don't really sit well with me. The decline seems a bit too slow (same with Athalē, actually), and I think there are too many (and too short) dynasties. I'll look into that tomorrow during a 6 hours train ride and make some suggestions...
b) Both ideas are fine; I prefer new sailing techniques/ship design as the main factor. Also, I could imagine the expansion being triggered by Fáralo attempts at maritime hegemony in the waters east of Lotoka.
c) Agreed.
d) I don't think the Doroh will be a very maritime people. But they'll likely play a role on land anyway, e.g. they could create a medium-sized empire/kingdom that includes the northeastern quarter of former Huyfárah. Thumapahìthì OTOH should be a major player indeed, more so than Lotoka.

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:21 pm

cedh audmanh wrote:d) I don't think the Doroh will be a very maritime people. But they'll likely play a role on land anyway, e.g. they could create a medium-sized empire/kingdom that includes the northeastern quarter of former Huyfárah.

Are you planning to do more with Doroh? I was working out the outcomes of those sound changes not too long ago, and I like it a lot... I think it has a kind of Finnish-like feel with the geminate vs. single stop alternations and front rounded vowels.

And that reminds me of the main project I'm supposedly working on...

There's definitely a Proto-Isthmus causative marker *-i-/*-j-; but I think where it falls in relation to the other suffixes has changed over time. At the Proto-Isthmus or early Pre-Western Isthmus period it seems to come first, before *-A- (*A = one of {*a *e *o}), yielding Faraghin -in. (Incidentally, this is the same slot that the "repeatedly" [frequentative?] aspect marker *-ʈ-, Faraghin -č-, now goes in.) In Faraghin, though, *-i-/*-j- comes after the *-A-, giving -oin. And at yet another time (either in between those or-- my preferred theory right now-- before Proto-Isthmus) it seems to simply replace the *-A-, giving Faraghin -en.

Does this kind of development seem plausible? I don't know whether change in affix order is something that happens much (or at all); as far as I can remember it didn't come up in the historical linguistics textbook I recently read... but maybe its plausibility depends somewhat on what the rest of the verb paradigm looks like. Zompist, do you have any input about that-- e.g., is the citation form in Faraghin some kind of finite verb, an infinitive, a participle, or what? Or should I work out a system myself? (Whatever it is, I'm guessing the -n is specific to that form; I'm not sure about the -a-.)

(For what it's worth, -a(:) and -i(:) are the most common final phonemes for verbs in Forest Miwan-- though not in the other Miwan varieties-- so there seems to be a parallel there. OTOH, the one pair where they alternate is zuma 'bite' ~ zumi: 'chew'; so the difference there seems to be something like intensity or aspect/aktionsart rather than transitivity.)

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:59 pm

Corumayas wrote:Does this kind of development seem plausible? I don't know whether change in affix order is something that happens much (or at all); as far as I can remember it didn't come up in the historical linguistics textbook I recently read...

I'm not sure about changes in affix order over time, but in Japanese there are inconsistencies in the order of different affixes. For example we have:

verb - past
verb - negative - past
verb - politeness (1) - past
verb - politeness (1) - negative - politeness (2) - past
adjective - past
adjective - negative - past
adjective - past - politeness (2)
adjective - negative - past - politeness (2) ("proper" form below)
adjective - politeness (1) - negative - politeness (2) - past

As you can see, if we disregard the difference between the 2 politeness "affixes" (I use the term loosely - politeness (2) is more like an auxilliary), then it seems like the order of the affixes is switched for verbs and adjectives. In fact, for adjectives, the order negative - politeness (2) - past is considered outright wrong, yet that is order seen after polite verbs.

cedh audmanh wrote:I like the look of this a lot. Please show us more...

It will probably be a while before I can make a proper conlang out of it. (Also, I see the pair <yi> comes up a lot. I wonder if I should abbreviate it as <ÿ>?)

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:16 am

Zhen Lin wrote:I see the pair <yi> comes up a lot. I wonder if I should abbreviate it as <ÿ>?

Actually, the frequent <yi> is one of the things I like most about this orthography...

Corumayas wrote:Are you planning to do more with Doroh? I was working out the outcomes of those sound changes not too long ago, and I like it a lot... I think it has a kind of Finnish-like feel with the geminate vs. single stop alternations and front rounded vowels.

Yeah, I was aiming for something like that...

I don't think I'll do anything more with Doroh soon. Within Akana several things have a higher priority for me: a) the map, b) the Hitatc languages (I'm currently stuck with a few Proto-Hitatc parts of speech / syntax issues), c) my Buruya-based descendant of Æðadĕ, and d) a sketchy Western language. So if you want to flesh out Doroh, go ahead!

I've put some additional thoughts into the sound changes though, back when Legion wanted some loanwords, because I discovered the changes that are listed so far don't deal all that well with clusters. I'm putting this on the Proto-Isthmus talk page so you can evaluate it yourself if you want. I like this a bit better, but it's still not perfect, especially since it might turn out to render gemination non-distinctive. Well. I'll put it up in two installments, first the original and then the modified version, so you can use the History function for comparison.

Corumayas wrote:Does this kind of development seem plausible? I don't know whether change in affix order is something that happens much (or at all); as far as I can remember it didn't come up in the historical linguistics textbook I recently read...

I don't have any evidence at hand, but I could imagine it would depend on productivity. When an affix is grammaticalized, it usually occupies the place right outside the earlier word form. Newer affixes usually appear further outside. But what if the older affix is actually used less often, and then the newer (outer) affix becomes unproductive in the more commonly used form? If the older affix (in this case, *-j-) is still productive at that time, it might easily appear after the newer but fossilized affix in more recent formations... or am I mistaken here?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:33 am

Concerning Thumapahìthì, I have a revision in the works.

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:57 pm

cedh audmanh wrote:a) I've long been of the vague opinion that some details don't really sit well with me. The decline seems a bit too slow (same with Athalē, actually), and I think there are too many (and too short) dynasties. I'll look into that tomorrow during a 6 hours train ride and make some suggestions...

This is mostly my doing; I've been thinking of a revision for a while. I'll leave a lot of the details open, so people working on Northern/Eastern Huyfárah have more wiggle room. But anyway, lots of the information on the history page on the wiki should be considered out of date.

The big "movements" of Huyfárah's later history are as follows:
-The late 300's are a "Silver Age."
-The mid-400's and early 500's are occupied by war with Athalē, which eventually gets the upper hand.
-The latter half of the 6th century is occupied by a large civil war, essentially based on inter-regional rivalries. It is one of those wars that is so long and complex that it's tedious to list all the reversals and details. Parts of the country are plunged into anarchy.
-The outcome in the south is that several cities and dependent territories form a confederation, Lewsfárah (Nam. <i>Lesfora</i>). This was based on ideals of republican government (an old Daiadak concept), semi-autonomy for each member city, and disestablishing Etúge. In its early days it was marred by excesses of revolutionary zeal, led by a faction calling itself "the Atheists," but got on firmer footing by 600 or so.
-In the north, the outcome is a new dynasty, and power starts drifting from Ussor to Sertek (perhaps with some back-and-forth).
-The late 7th century, and the 8th century, bring great decline for both Huyfárah and Lewsfárah. In the former the result is tyrannical rule by brutish generals, and in the latter the result is disunity and religious fanatism. There were Kascan cities incorporated into Lewsfárah, but by now they have quit.
-By 750 all the southern cities have gone their own way completely.
-In 786 Ussor is sacked by some Isthmus barbarians. Other barbarians are rampaging all over the damn place. This is the end of Imperial Huyfárah.
-The Takuña attempt to capitalize on the disunity. They establish a foothold somewhere in the Fáralo area.
-Mɨdu becomes a powerful kingdom in its own right.
-Within the next century or so a new kingdom of "Hajū" arises on the Oltu.

Beyond this you can ignore most of the details I have written.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:34 am

Well, the fixes I was going to make to the House of Mir article are finally made, and the article finished - I finally got around to writing the Texozonon I & II sections. Comments/criticism/edits about any of the above are of course welcome.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:18 am

Very interesting. One thing though:

The emperor was unable to procreate, of short stature, and had a somewhat high-pitched voice, all due to his castration at a young age.

Weren't the castrati of old taller than average? Apparently they never stopped growing.

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:13 pm

I think Zhen Lin is right (though info on the physical characteristics of eunuchs is somewhat contradictory).

Along with fixing some typos/spelling, I've taken the liberty of changing Mezarasian, Khalanese to Mezarāran, Khalanuran. I also put question marks in for the missing digits of Iotirā's death date (it was given as "3"). If you don't like anything I've done, just reverse the changes.

Re: the declines of Huyfárah and Athalē, I think ultimately it should be Athalē that is the more short-lived empire. It's pretty much entirely funded by its overland trade monopoly, and I think it'd decline very quickly once reliable sea routes to Xšalad were established. Maybe the revival in the late 5th century should be dropped, or made less impressive (could Adāta-speaking Lasomo become independent in 489, rather than rejoining with Athalē?); at the least it should be short-lived, and probably followed by a long decline into obscurity as the center of activity shifts decisively to the coast...

kyonides · Post by **kyonides** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:46 pm

Or let them take control over part of the coast or one of the most important seaports.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:39 am

Aha. Looking it up, it seems you're correct, eunuchs do tend to grow taller. Fixed in the article. So's the date I neglected to fill in.

Corumayas and Cedh: thank you for the corrections. I reverted "judgment" back to "judgement" because that one's not an error (both spellings are standard) and the former spelling makes me feel all yuerkky inside when I see it.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:28 am

Corumayas wrote:Re: the declines of Huyfárah and Athalē, I think ultimately it should be Athalē that is the more short-lived empire. It's pretty much entirely funded by its overland trade monopoly, and I think it'd decline very quickly once reliable sea routes to Xšalad were established. Maybe the revival in the late 5th century should be dropped, or made less impressive (could Adāta-speaking Lasomo become independent in 489, rather than rejoining with Athalē?); at the least it should be short-lived, and probably followed by a long decline into obscurity as the center of activity shifts decisively to the coast...

Economically speaking, I'd say you have a point here. But we have to take into account the linguistic developments. In general, Adāta seems to have had a stronger linguistic impact (for the first one or two millennia at least) on its surroundings than Fáralo. Of course this is partly due to our starting with Adāta and only adding Fáralo descendants into the relay later on, but still. Also, changing the established languages is not really an option. Look at Æðadĕ, for instance: In terms of phonemic structure and syntax it seems closer to Adāta than its sisters Aθáta, Adhāsth, Mavakhalan, and Pencek. But if Lasomo is conquered in 277, lost in 453, and not regained in 489, I don't think this could come about from barely two centuries under Athalēran rule, especially since the standardisation of Adāta dates as late as 414.

Also, Huyfárah appears to suffer from a real lot of internal troubles in the centuries to after that. To me, the Fáralo don't seem to be in the best position to focus on discovering trade routes during that time. And if they did that earlier, it would be hard to explain Athalē's rise at all.

Remember as well that Lasomo is a very fertile and populous region. As long as Athalē can hold on to that, it will probably be safe as an empire, even if it becomes economically weaker. The second fall of Akelodo could well be earlier though, I'd say around 800 (we had a good scenario for this here). My suggestion is that Athalē loses the Tjakori fairly quickly after conquering it (this could be a decisive factor in the 444-453 war with Huyfárah), but manages to survive this crisis and regains Lasomo in 489 (but not the Ici forest, which is also lost during the 450s). For a century or two, with Huyfárah in turmoil, Athalē is the dominant (but stagnant) power of the region, and even holds Buruya for some time. Buruya is then lost again when the New Fáralo Republic becomes strong enough; maybe the city is even incorporated into Lesfora for a while? Around 650 the Dāiadak are getting tired of holding onto the economically unimportant Xōron Eiel with all its nomad tribes. They withdraw, keeping only a few towns on the Eigə. Similar things happen a few decades later in the upper Milīr. Thus, at the time when Akelodo falls, Athalē consists basically of the Rathedān, the lower Milīr, and the Eigə valley between Meximō (see here) and the Milīr confluence halfway between Akelodo and Buruya. Approximately the same area as when Tēmekas II conquered Akelodo in the first place...

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:09 am

cedh audmanh wrote:Also, Huyfárah appears to suffer from a real lot of internal troubles in the centuries to after that. To me, the Fáralo don't seem to be in the best position to focus on discovering trade routes during that time. And if they did that earlier, it would be hard to explain Athalē's rise at all.

On the economics side we can make the best sense of all this, I think, with a compromise: the Faralo had indeed found they could trade with the Xsali by water, but nevertheless the voyages were expensive and difficult and Huyfarah wasn't entirely prepared to invest that much effort on a large scale just yet. In the 200s and 300s, it could have easily been a toss-up whether paying for direct voyages or paying Daiadak markup for overland trade was the least expensive, leaving both methods in service but the passes of the Rathedan still in some demand for a few centuries.

So, how does this outline sound?

1. 0 - 200 YP: Huyfarah still expanding and exploring, and increasing in prosperity, and first discover the existence of Xsalad secondhand by word from the Rathedan; some Huyfarah-Xsalad trade begins, via this overland route. This trade, as well as domestic Daiadak trade, fuel the growing economy of the Rathedan in the first two centuries. The Daiadak start learning what it's like to be rich, fueling ambition which in turn fuels their early expansion.

2. 200 - 400 YP: Huyfarah's expansion and exploration has slowed somewhat, but they're still going strong economically (regardless of the civil issues) and have a prosperous population who have learned to want Xsali goods. They have now found Xsalad themselves by sea routes, and finally knowing how to get there, are using many of their ships for this. Nevertheless the volume of trade is so much larger than before 200 YP that even with the sea trade, the overland routes are being used more too. It's in this period when the two routes have comparable cost. The Daiadak meanwhile, are still making money off Faralo-Xsali trade, which helps fuel the blooming of their empire, but in fact they conquer somewhat more than they can sustainably hold onto given their population and economy at the time.

3. 400 - 500 YP: Internal strife in Huyfarah again, coupled with the two empires squabbling over lands between them. Demand in Huyfarah for goods goes down as prosperity falls, while overland trade for Xsali goods comes almost to a halt during times of inter-empire war. The Daiadak feel the pinch and gradually let go of two provinces - firstly the Tjakori valley because it's the hardest to defend (and most recent aquisition) and secondly the Ici forest because of all the provinces it's worth the least to Athale. After 500 YP, use of the overland trade routes does not recover, or at least not nearly to the level seen between 200 and 400.