Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[dunomapuka]

Two subjects.

A. I've received no feedback on the proposed name for the country of Affanons: Hagaffanong (which is a non-canonical spelling for a Fáralo word).

Not sure about that Faralo form. It depends when they formulated the word.

"Hagíbəl" isn't a good model because it descends from the much older Sau Ibli, via *Sawibli. The /g/ only shows up because the w has fortified intervocalically, and this only would happen in an old word. The word for "coast," in a new coinage, should just be hou (nom. sou).

Or they could just do Affanoŋ-laš? Or, borrow the Affanon's own name for the area?

[Salmoneus]

It really doesn't take that long to become a dominant language. The Romans were in northern and central Gaul for less than 500 years, but the pre-Roman language, Gaulish, was eliminated almost without trace. In England, Brythonic was spoken in 400 AD; by 600AD, it was a minority language; by 1000AD it was extinct except for in Wales and Cornwall.


1. The language of the dominant kingdom.
2. The islands are very small

1-2. Why do you conclude there was uninhabitation? It would seem unlikely given the geography

3. I've not seen Legion's data, but a strongly dominant language can arise quickly, if it's accompanied by a new type of state, it seems to me.



Why does Isles look so dominant? I would suggest two phases:
1. Proto-Isles settlers bring a successful new aquaculture to the area. Existing coastal peoples adopt their technology, social structure and language

2. Civilisation arives in the area. The PI peoples have a social structure that better enables them to take and hold territory, putting themselves at the top of the new kingdoms that are emerging.

I don't think they have to be there too early.


------

I don't know what the plans are for Proto-Peninsular, but to me it would seem more likely that they went up the coast, and via Dagaem, during the dark ages, arrived in Lotoka and then migrated DOWN the islands.

Of course, if PP are already there it makes it a bit stranger that PI does so well, since they look like similar-level cultures.

[Corumayas]

Turn it into [wʉ], then delete [w] if it follows any high vowel.

Perfect, thanks.

A. I've received no feedback on the proposed name for the country of Affanons: Hagaffanong (which is a non-canonical spelling for a Fáralo word).

Not sure about that Faralo form. It depends when they formulated the word.

It could just be called by the name of the people; cf. Lu-Tal, from Talo 'Tlaliolz'. Looking at the Faralo sound changes (and how they affect the name "Siixtaguna"), I'd guess that the name would be either Afanoŋ or Afænoŋ (maybe Afanuŋ/Afænuŋ if it was borrowed very early). But zompist has the final say, obviously.

(2) Mûtsinamtsys islands (the home of the Mûtsipsa' language): the Takuña were present on only one island in the group.

Actually they were on two of the four islands (as well as the mainland of course).

Some other points to notice:
-The Núalís family covers Tymytỳs and "several neighboring islands".

-The comparative homogeneity of the Takuña could be the result of recent expansion (i.e., relatively shortly before the Mûtsinamtsys arrive). Siixtaguna looks like it might mean "north Takuña", implying that their territory extends some distance to the south too.

-I'm not sure how homogeneous Thumapahìthì actually is; Legion hasn't published any details about it.

Overall, I'd say the evidence suggests that the Isles speakers reached Thumapahìthì earliest, then the Mûtsinamtsys region, and arrived latest in Tymytỳs. It also sounds like the Núalís have been in place longer than the Takuña. I don't know that we can come to any conclusions about the absolute dates though.

I don't know what the plans are for Proto-Peninsular, but to me it would seem more likely that they went up the coast, and via Dagaem, during the dark ages, arrived in Lotoka and then migrated DOWN the islands.

Of course, if PP are already there it makes it a bit stranger that PI does so well, since they look like similar-level cultures.

Maybe they arrived at about the same time, then. We don't know for sure that Peninsular people were established in Legion's islands, just that his people borrowed several words from Lotoka. Or maybe Legion's Isles speakers were more warlike and either conquered the Peninsulars or drove them out.

The most likely-seeming scenario, to me, is that the Peninsular people spread first to Fmana-hŋ-Talam (the large island south of Dagæm), and then from there to Dagæm, Lotoka, and wherever else they went. It looks like the Affanon peninsula would be their logical first landing-point on the mainland if they arrived from F-h-T or Dagæm.

[Basilius]

boy #12 > Wouldn't Laš(-)áfanoŋ be another option? I like it better for some reason...

(I don't think Hagáfano(u)ŋ would be so difficult to parse for the native speakers, but I don't have any reasons to stick to it. And I cannot propose a native coinage: as I said, Affanonic words for notions like "country", "land" etc. are unknown, and will probably remain unknown until we work out the way to add stuff to the Proto-Isles lexicon.)

Also, I know that the general rule demands that the toponyms of Fáralo origin be in the standard translitteration, but I would definitely prefer an Anglicized form (without eng etc.), e. g. Lashaffanong.

Salmoneus > I like your suggestions, but I still think that total assimilation requires more time.

With the Romans and the Gauls, it looks more like absorption of vast but not too densely populated territory by a great militaristic power already controlling larger territories with much more numerous population. And the history of Britain is in fact a counter-example to your thesis: 1500 years were not enough to completely assimilate all the minorities in just one big island; I suppose a whole archipelago provides more potential refuges for unassimilated autochthons.

On the other hand, I don't see why the colonization of Thumapahìthì could not start as early as around -1000 YP.

[Basilius]

(2) Mûtsinamtsys islands (the home of the Mûtsipsa' language): the Takuña were present on only one island in the group.

Actually they were on two of the four islands (as well as the mainland of course).

Some other points to notice:
-The Núalís family covers Tymytỳs and "several neighboring islands".

-The comparative homogeneity of the Takuña could be the result of recent expansion (i.e., relatively shortly before the Mûtsinamtsys arrive).

That is, as I supposed, in both cases the "autochthons" arrived not much earlier than the Isles-speaking folks. (Or it is difficult to understand how so much land could remain uninhabited in either area.) This may help determine more precise datings.

-I'm not sure how homogeneous Thumapahìthì actually is; Legion hasn't published any details about it.

That was my impression from some messages in this thread. I don't remember Legion's exact words, though.

Overall, I'd say the evidence suggests that the Isles speakers reached Thumapahìthì earliest, then the Mûtsinamtsys region, and arrived latest in Tymytỳs.

...Which may also mean that they migrated to the other two regions *via* Thumapahìthì - the alternative would be to rely on "the northern way" which still seems a dubious hypothesis to me.

It looks like the Affanon peninsula would be their logical first landing-point on the mainland if they arrived from F-h-T or Dagæm.

Your use of "the Affanon peninsula" switched something in me... Why didn't I think of proposing just "the Affanon Peninsula", "the Affanon Kingdom", etc.? (not sure it was really a kingdom, but anyway...)

I wanted "Affanonic" to be applied to the language, but otherwise just Affanon (used attributively) looks OK. Sort of the same distinction as with "Arab" - "Arabic". Does this appear too artificial?

And no, I don't mind any number of unassimilated minorities, including Peninsular :)

[zompist]

If Affanon is an adjective, I'd suggest F. lu-laš Afanon; there's no reason you can't have final -n. I'd suggest -on rather than -oun so far from the stress, but you can have -oun if you prefer it.

If it's a noun ("an Affanon"), then it'd be lu-laš æm lu-Gafanon, i.e. the country of the Affanons.

[Cedh]

Damn, so much to respond to, and I don't have regular www access this week, so I can't really write elaborated comments now...

OK. I think Cedh's datings for the Three Waves can be reconsidered *if that's really needed*. So let's consider "-20 KY", "-15 KY" etc. just conventional labels.

That "Theory" was really just an ad-hoc explanation, so the details can definitely be modified. I like Sal's elaboration; this should be unified into a wiki article.

For example, the shortest route I can imagine for an early migration to the Twin Continents is Lotoka coast - Thumapahìthì - Ttiruku - Zeluzhia - the peninsula protruding from "Antarctis" - Western Twin Continent; therefore, a lot depends on how early the sound between Ttiruku and Zeluzhia could be crossed (it looks too wide for rafts and dugouts, doesn't it?).

I think the first crossing to Zeluzhia would probably be made via that small island arc at the northeastern tip of Zeluzhia. There, the largest distance between individual islands may well be below 50km.
The eastern part of Zeluzhia and the northern part of "Antarctica" are geologically the same continent; the strait between them is fairly shallow and also full of islands. I think it would be very likely that a maritime culture would develop quickly once humans get there, and such a culture might easily explore the coasts of "Antarctica" and eventually cross over to the northwestern "Twin". Only the southeastern Twin and the large islands east of Tuysáfa ("Anatolionesia" as mentioned in the Erhadzy grammar) and north of the NW Twin (this is "Lesan") would remain uninhabited by, say, 1000 YP.

---

My first reaction is that every continent now looks bigger and more shapelessly blobby than it did before.

Second reaction: what the hell has happened to the northeastern islands, and WHY? They made sense before, didn't they? [Having the islands extend in a ridge from the mainland would make sense as an old plate boundary, which would explain why it's above land when the rest of the plate isn't]

Third reaction: isn't it a bit weird having that subcontinent all by itself on the corner of a plate? I'd make a small plate covering it and the ocean to the south-east (creating a nesia in the process).

Fourth reaction: wouldn't it be nice to have at least a couple of islands somewhere going vaguely near the arctic?

Re Second/Third:
I never even considered the northeastern islands being at a plate boundary, but now you mention it, it does make sense. Possibly more so than having Siixtaguna and NW Tuysáfa on the same plate, as it is now (with submerged continental crust between, this explains why the Ttirukan islands are so large).

Re Fourth:
Adding some islands north of the Siixtaguna subcontinent is possible and not a big deal. It's more difficult north of the Western sphere or north of Tuysáfa for tectonic reasons.

Re First and the following:

What I think we really, really need is a scale.

Sal's comments prompted me to check this. It turns out that the shape of S Peilaš (at least) will definitely have to be revised yet again: Assuming that Akana is identical in size to Earth, that large "blob", which would mostly be covered by tropical forest (if the western part isn't too dry for that), is almost twice the size of South America. The mountain range on its NW coast is about the same length as the Andes, if the islands are included:


Also, I still don't like how the north coast of Peilaš looks on a globe, and "Antarctica" is not completely tectonically plausible either (shape does not line up with plate borders). I'll have to revise these as well. I don't want to revisit anything in the Xšali - Aiwa - Ttiruku - Tuysáfa - Zeluzhia region, though.

---

Also, I know that the general rule demands that the toponyms of Fáralo origin be in the standard translitteration, but I would definitely prefer an Anglicized form (without eng etc.), e. g. Lashaffanong.

Actually, I'm strongly in favour if not using Anglicized forms anywhere on the wiki. I don't even like the fact that Naidda uses <sh> for /S/. (Obviously, using Anglicized forms here or on IRC if diacritics are not available at that moment is OK, but I'd like to see the official Akana material free from such forms.) It follows from this that I would support using "Affanon" as the regular, native-based adjective, and to replace "Affanonic" either with the native name of the language or with another in-world designation. As a precedent: we've replaced all Anglicized adjectives in the context of Dāiadak culture with Adātaized forms in -ran a while ago, e.g. *Lasomian > Lasomoran.

[Cedh]

Another issue:

At times with much activity in this thread, like currently, it becomes extremely difficult to keep track of all that's being discussed even if you've been away from the board for just two days. Also, some of the more detailed questions in previous discussions have never been answered because the major portion of the thread went on to focus on a different topic.

I take this as an indication that it might make sense to create a more orderly place for discussing general issues about Akana. The wiki talk pages are probably too specific for this, so I'd like to raise the suggestion of establishing a separate Akana forum.

I realize that we need to keep this thread active in order to be able to attract new participants or allow old participants to become active again. (I suppose this might be one of the reasons the Kutjaraworld project died. Radius?) But I still think it might be good to keep separate threads for some of the major topics - maps, migration routes, history, language families (possibly with subthreads for specific languages) etc.

Let me know what you think.
In order to keep this meta-discussion separate from this thread, please do so at http://www.superlush.co.uk/~akana/index.php/Talk:Akana

[Salmoneus]

I agree with the forum, and with the need to keep this thread running for update news and general suggestions, perhaps with more detailed discussion shifting over to the forum.

On the tectonics: one thing we should think seriously about is that faultline through northern Tuysafa. Do we really want it?

- If we don't have it, or have it further south or something, we'll have a huge northern-european temperate zone that later on will be wonderful for powerful nations.

- If we do have it, we'll only have a tiny bit of temperate. We may even imperil the mediterranean zone - the mountains would make the south coast drier, possibly putting in a large semi-arid zone with only coastal mediterraneanness?

[dunomapuka]

If Affanon is an adjective, I'd suggest F. lu-laš Afanon; there's no reason you can't have final -n. I'd suggest -on rather than -oun so far from the stress, but you can have -oun if you prefer it.

If it's a noun ("an Affanon"), then it'd be lu-laš æm lu-Gafanon, i.e. the country of the Affanons.

The eng there reflects the Affanonic pronunciation: ['affanoN].

[Corumayas]

I think the first crossing to Zeluzhia would probably be made via that small island arc at the northeastern tip of Zeluzhia. There, the largest distance between individual islands may well be below 50km.

It looks like the largest gap our migrators have to cross is the one just southeast of Wihe, then.

Sal's comments prompted me to check this. It turns out that the shape of S Peilaš (at least) will definitely have to be revised yet again...

Also, I still don't like how the north coast of Peilaš looks on a globe, and "Antarctica" is not completely tectonically plausible either (shape does not line up with plate borders). I'll have to revise these as well. I don't want to revisit anything in the Xšali - Aiwa - Ttiruku - Tuysáfa - Zeluzhia region, though.

The one thing I question about Zeluzhia is that southwestern corner that's on another plate. Why doesn't the coast follow that plate boundary? I think I'd like the continent's shape better if it did.

Actually, I'm strongly in favour if not using Anglicized forms anywhere on the wiki.

In principle I agree; we should prefer native terms whenever they're available. In some situations we probably have to coin terms, though-- like 'Zeluzhia' and, for that matter, 'Edastean', 'Etugeist', and 'Anaitism'.


I also agree an Akana forum might be good; do you have an idea about where to host it?

[Radius Solis]

Actually, I'm strongly in favour if not using Anglicized forms anywhere on the wiki.

In principle I agree; we should prefer native terms whenever they're available. In some situations we probably have to coin terms, though-- like 'Zeluzhia' and, for that matter, 'Edastean', 'Etugeist', and 'Anaitism'.

If I may dissent, I think letting ourselves get bogged down in enforcing an anglicization policy would only subtract from our enjoyment of Akana. My suggestion is that the writer of an article should use the approach he thinks best. So long as he's relatively consistent about it. Sorta like the Wikipedia policy that an article can be in AmEng or BritEng but to avoid mixtures.

(I'm sorry Cedh doesn't like some of my spelling conventions in conlangs, but don't hold your breath waiting for me to see the light. My aesthetic tolerance for consonant diacritics is extremely limited. If it was up to me I would systematically extirpate s-hacek from the entire wiki, as it is an abomination unto the LORD and a blight upon our souls. )

I also agree an Akana forum might be good; do you have an idea about where to host it?

Agree. One possibility might just be to set up something on a public free board system, like EZboard, since our needs are not great, unless anyone's going to choke over having to see the ads.

[Basilius]

A. (Forum) An absolutely ideal thing would be to have a separate forum on ZBB (every conlanger comes here sooner or later etc.). I do realize that it would look quite perpendicular to the established policy :(

Also, if we actually move to some other place, I'd suggest freezing this thread (if that's technically possible, does not conflict with Zompist's vision of whether ZBB may support frozen threads, etc.).

B. (Anglicization and Affanonic)

(1) A minor problem: the native pl. of Affanon (referring to a person) is Affanonjur. Should the latter be used officially on the wiki instead of "Affanons"? I wouldn't vote that, since it looks to me like complicating things without necessity. That is, IMHO nativization must confine to some reasonable limits.

(2) Another (potential) problem: structural dissimilarities between English and a specific native language. For example, I don't think Affanonic uses substantivized adjectives as short names of languages (like "French" or "Polish" in English); other languages, too, may happen to have no exact matches for the English triads like Sweden - Swede - Swedish.

I suspect Affanonic will derive more than one adjective from each ethnonym (including the name of the Affanons themselves) - this just seems to follow from the way the POS system developed in the language. And the standard derivation pattern for language names will be probably the replacement of the -non(jur) of the compound ethnonym with another stem, probably *not* meaning precisely 'language' when used independently (if it occurs as independent word at all).

(3) Also, I don't find it convenient to have e. g. an "Affanon" (a person) homonymous with *Affanon (the language), even if Affanon could be used attributively in Affanonic (which doesn't seem to be the case).

(4) And finally, the dull practical obstacle: I understand much of the grammar, I know how the Affanons called themselves, but I haven't discovered yet the native names for the language or the country (having considered and rejected quite a few candidate forms). In fact, I suspect this will last for some time; and of all potential forcible solutions I've found no better one so far than to use the Anglicized word, "Affanonic", for the language (and perhaps I'd even consider seriously "Affanonia" for the country) - it appears easier to invent a "meta" justification for that than to adopt unnatural "native" coinages (which I'll probably have to revise later on anyway).

The above also means that I'm really interested in feedback and suggestions on potential exonyms (Anglicized or not). I just don't feel that I have enough info to make a decision.

boy #12 -> correct, the [ŋ] was allophonic, but the Fáralo speakers must have heard it as a definite /ŋ/.

[Cedh]

The one thing I question about Zeluzhia is that southwestern corner that's on another plate. Why doesn't the coast follow that plate boundary? I think I'd like the continent's shape better if it did.

This is a leftover from Pocketful_of_Songs' original world map proposal. That plate boundary in SW Zeluzhia represents a fresh rift valley, which will eventually split Zeluzhia apart (on my last map, there's a similar rift in Peilaš, which is marked with a dashed line - I should probably have marked the rift in Zeluzhia the same way). It's not geologically important though, the plate might as well stay together.

On the tectonics: one thing we should think seriously about is that faultline through northern Tuysafa. Do we really want it?

- If we don't have it, or have it further south or something, we'll have a huge northern-european temperate zone that later on will be wonderful for powerful nations.

- If we do have it, we'll only have a tiny bit of temperate. We may even imperil the mediterranean zone - the mountains would make the south coast drier, possibly putting in a large semi-arid zone with only coastal mediterraneanness?

Thanks for pointing this out. Let's see... If we rearrange the plates such that the islands off NE Peilaš sit on a boundary, it might be possible to keep the edge of the North Polar Plate off in the ocean. However, the two island arcs connecting the three main continents will definitely require some mountains in the western third of Tuysáfa. I'm not sure if it's possible to align them in such a way that they don't affect climate too unfavorably, but we can try.

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A. (Forum) An absolutely ideal thing would be to have a separate forum on ZBB (every conlanger comes here sooner or later etc.).

Agreed. My favourite option would actually be a separate subforum within C&C, if the ZBB software supports that. And while such a forum is clearly not in line with the tradition of the board, I think we can safely say that Akana is some sort of flagship project of the ZBB community that might warrant such an exception.

---

Re Anglicization: I don't want to enforce a strict Anglicization policy or orthography restrictions or any such things. And changing the established term Edastean to an "authentic" Fáralo term like edástin or so just because the Language Police has arrived would be silly indeed. I simply found <Lashaffanong> orthographically unaesthetic, and overreacted a bit. Sorry for that. In fact, the name "Affanonic" is quite okay. Still I hope that in general we'll keep preferring in-world designations where possible.

My aesthetic tolerance for consonant diacritics is extremely limited...

And so is mine for <sh>. Never mind

[Corumayas]

-If two short vowels which are neither front nor high are in contact, do they both remain?

With the modification above, the only problematic case would be with two identical short vowels... but Ayasth had a Sandhi rules stating that two identical short vowels in contact merge as a long vowel. I don't remember if Ayasthi revision has that rule, but we can import it if so.

There are also pairs of vowels that differ only in roundedness (œ/ɛ, y/i) and/or nasalization (e.g. o~/o). How would you handle them?

Also, when applying this rule:

When two long vowel are in contact, the most further away from the accent is deleted.

would you disregard the secondary accent when deciding which of two long vowels is closer to the accent-- i.e., "the accent" here means strictly the primary accent?

[Legion]

-If two short vowels which are neither front nor high are in contact, do they both remain?

With the modification above, the only problematic case would be with two identical short vowels... but Ayasth had a Sandhi rules stating that two identical short vowels in contact merge as a long vowel. I don't remember if Ayasthi revision has that rule, but we can import it if so.

There are also pairs of vowels that differ only in roundedness (œ/ɛ, y/i) and/or nasalization (e.g. o~/o). How would you handle them?

For rounded/unrounded pairs, treat the unrounded vowels as fronter.
For nasal/oral pairs, treat the oral vowels as higher.

Also, when applying this rule:

When two long vowel are in contact, the most further away from the accent is deleted.

would you disregard the secondary accent when deciding which of two long vowels is closer to the accent-- i.e., "the accent" here means strictly the primary accent?

Originally, yes, the secondary accent was disregarded. However, if you want to do otherwise, go ahead.

[jmcd]

I think the best idea is to make it close to the original Agaf at the same time as reducing the morphophonemics but I'd also like it to be more original and less European.
COmments on the new Agaf changes:
I thought it was weird in the fortition that j: goes to J\ when Z: goes to J\ too and r\: goes to j\. I think it makes more sense either for j: to go to j\. Either that or for r\: and M\: to go to J\ and g respectively. In any case, r\ goes to a palatal in the fortition but straight after completely to a velar. I also thought that z: would better go to J\ or d rather than r so that it would be fortition like the others.

I also though it would be better to keep some of the weirder phones like ɞ and M\.
To do this, I thought
[ɰ] > [j] / _V[+front]
[ɰ] > [w]
would be better replaced with
[w] > [ɰ] / _V[+front]
[w] > [v]
or something similar. This would parallel the changes to gw. That would leave us with something closer to the original Agaf phonology as well.

I think it'd be better to keep h\ or change it to ? rather than change it to G since that's what it was just before. Changing it to ? would increase the amount of occlusives as well.

Judging from the samples, things Ayasthi need are
V[-high]/V[+high]/V_V
followed by
V[+high]/approximant/V_V
and
V[+high αfront βback γrounded]//V_approximant[+high αfront βback γrounded]
V[+high αfront βback γrounded]//approximant[+high αfront βback γrounded]_V
so as to avoid sequences like aeE and wyuw.
I suppose V > 0 / #_$ could cover the former but I get the feeling it should be dealt with earlier. I'm not entirely sure what the dollar sign means though.

I think, since B and D are only used in affected pronounciations, they shouldn't be mention in the sound changes
and just treated as w and z.
And, just for neatness, I think for
[ɔ o u] > [ɛ e i] / _[+pal]
, it's more economical
to say the next rule before it:
[ɛ ɔ] > [e o]
[o u] > [e i] / _[+pal]

[Cedh]

I suppose V > 0 / #_$ could cover the former but I get the feeling it should be dealt with earlier. I'm not entirely sure what the dollar sign means though.

A syllable boundary, usually.

I think, since B and D are only used in affected pronounciations, they shouldn't be mention in the sound changes
and just treated as w and z.

This would be a good opportunity for a split though: You could create doublets with distinct meanings, one starting from [w z], the other from or similar. That said, I suppose most of the Ayāsthi words with [β ð] in them are lexical doublets anyway since the affected pronunciations are mostly used in reborrowings from Adāta...

<hr>
As a possible source for inspiration, I'd like to throw this into the mix: About a year ago, I briefly thought about deriving a daughter of Ayāsthi. The only thing I got to was applying a few phonetic simplifications to the first sentence of the sample text, starting from my own pronunciation mistakes. The result would be more like a contemporary dialect since the changes are rather minor, but there might be some ideas in there for you to exploit. Most significantly, I think it shows that a drastic reduction of the various vowel sequences gives good results, especially if you start with creating some semivowels as jmcd just suggested:

Ayāsthi
Әr-àuıw şìp, Sìnacaṅ, àeıen’aċ şèatşeıoac ġèzoar, ən-àeıen’aċ şèatşeıoac’a làh’a Cáġat, ən-àeıen’aċ méċat’a zàma əṅ tsálo: Éılany àfeıen’aı əv-ōfáċāseı’a mèşş’aı, èşş làh ġèıl əċ-ər-vèʒy àfeıen’aċa ēıll-ìṅ as’-géċoṁ.
[ əˈɹɑ.wy.u ˈʃip | ˈʃi.nɑ.kɑ̃ | ˈɑ.e.ɛ.nɑx ˈʃɛ.ɑ.ʧe.ɔk ˈɦɛ.zɔ˞ | əˈnɑ.e.ɛ.nɑx ˈʃɛ.ɑ.ʧe.ɔ.kɑ ˈlɑ.hɑ ˈkɑː.ɦɑt | əˈnɑ.e.ɛ.nɑx ˈmɛː.xɑ.tɑ ˈzɑ.mɑ ə̃ ˈʦɑː.lo ‖ ˈeː.lɑ.nɨ ˈɑ.ɸe.ɛ.næ ə.woːˈɸɑː.xɑː.se.ɑ ˈmɛʃ.ʃæ | ˈɛʃː ˈlɑh ˈɦel ə.xəɹˈwɛ.ʒɨ ˈɑ.ɸe.ɛ.nɑ.xɑ eːlˈlĩ ɑsˈʔɛː.xɔ̃ ]

"Azaštje"
Ažôju šip, Šinaka, ajnach šetšeuk hezo, anâjnach šetšeuka lakâut, anâjnach mechta zamatšâlo: jelaň javjena ufârašej meša, eš la hel rowêži javjenach elî jasêro.
[ aˈʒo.ju ˈʃip | ˈʃi.na.ka | ˈaɪ.naχ ˈʃɛ.ʧɛʊk ˈhe.zo | aˈnaɪ.naχ ˈʃɛ.ʧɛʊ.ka laˈkaʊt | aˈnaɪ.naχ ˈmɛç.ta za.maˈʧa.lo ‖ ˈje.laɲ ˈja.vʲe.na uˈfa.ʀa.ʃɛɪ ˈmɛ.ʃa | ɛʃ la hɛl ʀoˈwe.ʒi ˈja.vʲe.naχ ɛˈli jaˈse.ʀo ]

[Basilius]

(1)

Corumayas > Thank you for the links to previous discussions - it was really a pleasant reading :)
Which made me think (once again)... what if we wikify some passages (with minimum editing where necessary) as quotes from fictional Akanian primers, readers, manuals (and the like) of later epochs?

Basilius, you're welcome; and that sounds like an excellent idea.

From this message by Radius I extracted the following:

- - - - - - - -

The Xšali have a long and well-developed tradition of varied and strong-flavored cuisine. Creative use of seasonings is among the high arts of the Empire, and the nobility and other well-to-do people are famous for their enjoyment of food. However, it should be noted that the common person has a more modest diet, with meals often consisting of no more than rice, bread, or occasionally meat. More elaborate dishes are served on special days and when there is an abundance of ingredients, and more often for the rich.

The mainstays of the Xšali diet are rice, sorghum, millet, sweet potato, onion, duck, and fish. Rice is typically eaten steamed, while breads are made of sorghum and millet. Sweet potato, onions, and meats are most often fried or occasionally baked. These things form the backbone of the diet of commoners and are always seasoned.

The six primary seasonings common to all Xšali cuisine are cinnamon, ginger, hot chili peppers, lemon, cardamom, and sugar. Garlic, cumin, kola, and sage are also common in many parts of the empire.

Popular in the city of Ne is a dish of spicy roast duck, served over a bed of rice or sorghum that has been cooked in coconut milk and flavored with a little sugar and either cinnamon or lemon juice.

- - - - - - - -

The above text can be rewritten in the past tense, and thus serve as an excerpt from e. g. a popular book on history.

But... it can also be left in the present, and then it looks like a traveller's account.

Perhaps, it could be used as an advanced translation exercise :)

Are there any chances that such a text written by an Akanian Strabo or Posidonius was preserved from such an early epoch? Perhaps, in more recent translations?

(2)
It seems that I've found the probable native name for the country of the Affanons: Affalinnei.

It is a transparent compound, 'eastern ( = the Affanons')' + 'leadership', and probably refers primarily to the state (rather than the territory or its population, for which the language had other terms). But in English it can be used in a somewhat broader sense.

I think the peninsula could be named straightly The Peninsula of Affalinnei (or Affalinnei Peninsula)?

Are there any obstacles to wikifying Affalinnei in the "Nations" category and Affanonic in "Languages"?

[Cedh]

Are there any chances that such a text written by an Akanian Strabo or Posidonius was preserved from such an early epoch?
...
Perhaps, it could be used as an advanced translation exercise

I like this. And I think chances are fairly good that such a text would be preserved. First of all, the Xšali have writing themselves. Secondly, we know that they regularly traded with the Dāiadak in the early 1st millennium, so even having an account of Xšali cuisine originally written in Adāta seems probable. (Fáralo would likely be another possibility, of course.)

Are there any obstacles to wikifying Affalinnei in the "Nations" category and Affanonic in "Languages"?

None that I can think of. Go ahead!

[jmcd]

I suppose V > 0 / #_$ could cover the former but I get the feeling it should be dealt with earlier. I'm not entirely sure what the dollar sign means though.

A syllable boundary, usually.

Thanks. It seems that rule doesn't help with that after all.

I think, since B and D are only used in affected pronounciations, they shouldn't be mention in the sound changes
and just treated as w and z.

This would be a good opportunity for a split though: You could create doublets with distinct meanings, one starting from [w z], the other from or similar. That said, I suppose most of the Ayāsthi words with [β ð] in them are lexical doublets anyway since the affected pronunciations are mostly used in reborrowings from Adāta...

That is a good point. Already with a merger, we'd have uw/w and ij/z pairs. We could alternatively separate the pairs further. By having w>v and j>j\ right at the start?

I like the way lɑ.hɑ ˈkɑː.ɦɑt goes to laˈkaʊt in your changes. I think we could fit something like that in.

[Basilius]

Legion, while you are here (?), will you please comment on various subjects discussed lately e. g. in the following messages: 11111111, 22222222, 33333333, 44444444, 55555555, 66666666, 77777777.

In particular, what do you think of Tuysáfa -> Ttiruku -> Thumapahìthì -> other places as the main migration route to the Mûtsinamtsys region, Tymytỳs, and the land of the Affanons? That would mean that your people on Thumapahìthì ousted or assimilated a few related Isles-speaking tribes.

[Legion]

jmcd > as I originally said, the new sound change list is just something I had worked out but was no longer intending to use myself so if you want to change stuff I have no problem with that.

Basilius > whoops, I had missed those. I am not opposed to this conquest/assimilation idea, precisely because the culture in those islands *is* quite war-like (though by historical times it's mostly internal conflict, they're not very united nor interested in empire building), kinda like ancient-Sparta/feodal Japan.

[Basilius]

I am not opposed to this conquest/assimilation idea, precisely because the culture in those islands *is* quite war-like (though by historical times it's mostly internal conflict, they're not very united nor interested in empire building), kinda like ancient-Sparta/feodal Japan.

Then we need a realistic setting for some earlier epoch to explain such thorough assimilation. The area must have been densely populated by the time when first Isles speakers arrived (agriculture etc.), while the newcomers couldn't be too numerous.

Also, it is interesting to figure out the details about the other Isles-speaking tribes on Thumapahìthì; for example, the probable dates of each tribe's exodus.

[Corumayas]

jmcd:

I'm almost done working through the old Agaf sound changes; I'll finish tonight or tomorrow. (I've been doing it all by hand, which in retrospect was incredibly dumb and inefficient, but I don't have a sound change app on my computer atm and didn't feel like searching for one that could handle IPA.) I'll wikify it when I'm done-- I should have it up by the weekend.

If you'd like to work on the new changes, that'd be fine with me. I can send you my IPA versions of the Ayasthi lexicon if you'd like (I have a more-or-less phonemic one, a more phonetic one, and a really detailed one that marks the tone mora-by-mora).

I was also thinking we could take a look at other languages that might be contemporary and nearby to see if we want to incorporate any Sprachbund or areal effects. In Legion's original history he said that Tharas was conquered by a rival kingdom, so we might want to decide what language they spoke and make that very influential on Agaf.