The West Saxon Scratchpad (Formerly the West Saxon Thread)

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Herra Ratatoskr
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The West Saxon Scratchpad (Formerly the West Saxon Thread)

Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

*UPDATE* Things have been a bit hectic for me over the last little while, and I've grown a bit dissatisfied with the state of West Saxon. After repeated failed edits, I've decided to start building the grammar back up from scratch, using whatever I already had as a base. I've decided to use the scratchpad approach to let me be a bit more flexible an experimental in my presentation. Updates will be more sketchy, but hopefully more frequent. Eventually I'll be consolidating what I've got into a more formal grammar, and other resources.
*END UPDATE*

It seems as though my two old threads on West Saxon have been pruned. :( Ah well, c'est la vie. I've not given up on it, however, and have been trying to get myself to do some more work on the syntax portion (as well as some revisions). I've found that the verbal syntax is giving me nightmares, and trying to get it to sound like something reasonably professional is the scribal equivalent of pulling teeth. That's where you guys come in. Here is a rough draft (more like glorified notes, actually) on the 9 tenses of West Saxon. If you could all kindly read, eviscerate, and curb stomp it, pointing out all the things that it is oh so woefully lacking, I would appreciate it greatly. Thanks!

Oh, and here's a link the (partial) West Saxon Reference Grammar, as well as one to the Verbal Morphology section

In most analyses, West Saxon has three grammatical tenses (past, present, and future) and three grammatical aspects (Perfective, Imperfective, and Perfect). These two sets of three combine two form 9 tense/aspect combinations. Their formation and uses are as follows:

Present Tenses
Simple Present
This is formed by using the simple present tense form of the verb. It denotes:

*Actions currently being performed
*As a "near future" tense, with appropriate adverbs (soon, tomorrow, etc.)
*Current states of being
*Equivalent of the preterit when used as a "narrative" present describing a past event.

Progressive
This is formed by combining the present tense of the verb beun with the durative participle. It denotes:

*Emphatic progressives, with a sense of "I'm right in the middle of x-ing."
*To express actions done habitually in the present.
*To form "since..." and "for..." style constructions, such as "I've lived in Winchester for 3 years/since 2005."
*Equivalent of the imperfect when using the "narrative" present.
*With adverbs of duration, i.e "Monday, I'm washing the car."

Perfect
The perfect is formed by the present tense form of either beun or han, plus the past participle. Beun is used with intransitive verbs, while han is used with transitive verbs. Its uses are as follows:

* To express that an action has been completed, and that it still has a relevance to the present. It can also sometimes be mixed up with the use of the preterit.
* Occasionally used as an equivalent of the pluperfect when using a "narrative" present, but more often the pluperfect is used instead.

Past Tenses
Preterit
The preterit is formed by using the preterit inflected form of the verb and is used to describe actions in the past which have been completed, and are conceived of as being a single, discreet action. It does not matter how long the action actually takes, so long as the action is considered a complete whole, e.g. "I went to Rome last summer."

Imperfect
The imperfect is formed by combining the preterit form of the verb beun with the durative participle. It is used:

* To say that an action was ongoing while another action is taking place.
* As past tense equivalents of the uses of the Progressive.

Pluperfect
The pluperfect is formed by combining the preterit forms of either beun or han with the past participle. It is used to show that an action has been completed before another action that occurs in the past.

Future Tenses
Simple Future
The future tense is formed either by the inflected future form (for the verb beun) or the inflected future of beun combined with the infinitive (for all other verbs). It is used to denote an action that will take place in the future, and is conceived of as a whole, perfective action. It is basically treated like the preterit, except it will occur after "now," rather than before.

The simple future can also be used as a "gnomic" future, to describe timeless, universal, or general facts. This is a continuation of the semantics of the verb beun, which have existed since the Old West Saxon period.

Future Progressive
The future progressive is formed by combining the inflected future form of beun with the durative participle, and it functions as a future tense equivalent of the imperfect.

Future Perfect
The future perfect is formed by combining the future forms of beun or han with the past participle. It is used to describe a future action that will be completed prior to another action which will also occur in the past, or which will have some impact on some point in the future.

That's it. Now, get curb stompin'! Tell me what you like, what you don't like, what you think could use some more detailed explanation, what leaves you scratching your head going WTF? Once this has been bloodied and beaten, I can then hopefully turn it into the grammatical equivalent of the $6 million man or Robocop. Then I can start talking about things like use of the subjunctive, inchoactive and causative constructions, the weln and scoln futures, and so forth. Vielen Dank!
Last edited by Herra Ratatoskr on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: The West Saxon Thread (revived)

Post by Cedh »

WMiller wrote:Present Tenses
Simple Present
This is formed by using the simple present tense form of the verb. It denotes:
[...]
*As a "near future" tense, with appropriate adverbs (soon, tomorrow, etc.)
The word marked in red is superfluous I'd think.

Also, preterite is usually written with a final -e.

Apart from this, your description is easy to understand and sounds good. It is short, but I don't feel like there's much more to be written in this section. Brevity as a feature!
(Of course you could elaborate on basically anything mentioned here, but I'd say it might be good to move on to specific constructions, and explain the details of tense/aspect usage where they are more idiosyncratic. This is a good introductory overview.)
Progressive
[...]
*To express actions done habitually in the present.
I'm curious how this came about, seeing as English (a close sister of West Saxon IIRC?) mostly uses the simple present for habitual statements. (I've even seen the English simple present described as a habitual mood.)

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Re: The West Saxon Thread (revived)

Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

cedh audmanh wrote:
Progressive
[...]
*To express actions done habitually in the present.
I'm curious how this came about, seeing as English (a close sister of West Saxon IIRC?) mostly uses the simple present for habitual statements. (I've even seen the English simple present described as a habitual mood.)
My thinking is that the construction derives from the Old English construction to-be + an + present participle, which was originally durative in meaning. In West Saxon, the simple aspect began to take on the Perfective aspect, while the durative aspect became an imperfective. Since I think of something done habitually as not being perfective, it made sense to me to have the progressive develop into the tense used for habituality. I also kind of liked the contrast that two languages so closely related, would go in absolutely opposite directions in determining habituality.

I do intend to have habituality marked by the progressive be a relatively recent development (in the last 300-400 years). Prior to that, the simple present is used, but the imperfect tense is used to mark habituality in the past (much like it does in Spanish). Modeled on that, it begins to spread into the present tense. This is part of a general trend of the progressive expanding its field of usage at the expense of the simple present.
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Post by Beli Orao »

Ah, the excellent Old English descendant is back :). Looking forward to West Saxon examples of these verb tenses.

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Post by Bristel »

heremaecg wrote:Ah, the excellent Old English descendant is back :). Looking forward to West Saxon examples of these verb tenses.
You mean the Anglo-Saxon descendant... :-)

EDIT: WMiller, this language looks lovely. The history behind it is quite interesting.

A question, the word "hawk" (my last name), what would it be in Modern WS?

The root is related to Habicht in German, and it is hafoc in Old English.

Edit again: What would the name Timothy be? Is it borrowed from a rendering in Gaelic, or from elsewhere, such as directly from Greek?

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Post by vec »

Looks quite lovely. Could you provide examples in West-Saxon?
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Post by TomHChappell »

Bristel wrote:A question, the word "hawk" (my last name), what would it be in Modern WS?

The root is related to Habicht in German, and it is hafoc in Old English.
How would Mark Antony have said
"Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the dogs of war"?
Bristel wrote:What would the name Timothy be? Is it borrowed from a rendering in Gaelic, or from elsewhere, such as directly from Greek?
It means "Honor to God". Maybe "Gottlob"?

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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Bristel wrote:
heremaecg wrote:Ah, the excellent Old English descendant is back :). Looking forward to West Saxon examples of these verb tenses.
You mean the Anglo-Saxon descendant... :-)
Good catch! I'm impressed muchly.

Hawk in West Saxon would be "Hauk" (pronounced [hAwk]). Timothy actually has three forms, with separate origins.

The most common form is Timoþij ["ti:.mO:.DI], a borrowing from English. In a revised timeline I've worked out, Wessex is under English control from about 1660-1925, and so a number of English names have been borrowed, with adaptations made for West Saxon spelling.

Next, there's Timotheus [ti:.mO.t}Hs], a borrowing from German which came in during the Reformation. It is not as common as Timoþij.

Finally, there's Godlof [god.l6f], a calque of Timothy, formed by West Saxon nationalists during England's control of Wessex. It never really caught on, but is still used occasionally by parents who want a "good, Saxon name" for their children. Therefore, your name would be:

Timoþij/Timotheus/Godlof Hauk.

Thanks for your interest, Bristel!
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Post by Bristel »

The little explanations make me squeal with delight! :D

If I were to get involved in your conlang and conworld, I'd certainly be called Godlof, since Timoþij sounds too Anglic. lol

I'd love to learn Wessaxesc, and the history of Þeo Wessaxne Rice.

From now on, I shall be known as Godlof Hauk... 8)

Please create a Wessaxesc lesson page!

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Post by Iridium »

I have to say, I think you have one of the finest conlangs on here!

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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

I'm touched by the interest shown in West Saxon, and wish to thank those who've commented. I'm also sorry that things haven't been updated as much as I'd like. Things I've been working on (and which will be uploaded soon, hopefully) include:

*Examples of each use of the tenses, with a bit more of the underlying logic behind the tenses, and the West Saxon conceptions of time.

*Rules concerning the use of the present vs. future of beun. On further cogitation, it seems the gnomic future means that the es and beþ forms are used in a manner similar to ser and estar in Spanish.

*A sketchy historical phonology/grammar, to replace what got pruned.

*Some notes on Cornwalsc, a medieval dialect/language spoken in Cornwall, along with Kernisc (Cornish). Distinctive features include some preservation of the inflectional vowels from "Old West Saxon," rather than full reduction to schwa, a masculine/feminine gender system (the neuter merges with the feminine), adjectival inflection, but an uninflected article. Also, two consonantal mutations. Incidentally, anyone who knows where I can get some info on Medieval Cornish Grammar, I would appreciate it greatly. A Google search hasn't turned up too much.

*A sketchy, version 0.1 version of a "teach yourself West Saxon" course, called "Speik med Elre" (Talk with Al). It's mainly done with dialogues, then discussion of the grammar.
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Post by eodrakken »

Good to see you back! I agree this is one of the best conlangs around.

The color scheme of your site is really tough on my eyes, though. Would you consider also posting the documents in simple black and white without the bright red frame? Sorry to whine but it's hard for me to read and I'm eager to see your work. :)

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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Oh, that reminds me of another forthcoming update: a redone West Saxon Grammar site. The color scheme will remain, but the look will be redone to make it more visually appealing.
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Post by Wycoval »

Pro - Very nice conlang, well presented too.
Con - A little proofreading is needed.
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Post by Dewrad »

WMiller wrote:Incidentally, anyone who knows where I can get some info on Medieval Cornish Grammar, I would appreciate it greatly. A Google search hasn't turned up too much.
This might be helpful, although it does concentrate on the latest stages of the language (but read it anyway, it's interesting).

This book, which kick-started the whole Cornish revival might also be interesting.

Otherwise, just try to get some dead tree sources on modern revived Cornish- it's primarily based on Mediaeval Cornish.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Many thanks, Dewrad. Both look interesting, and will undoubtedly prove useful. And a general thanks to the immense help you've been to me on this endeavor, which you may or may not realize.
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

SAVED! (this was the last post in the forum)

I've finally decided to update any interested parties on the state of West Saxon. After much cogitation (and reading up on Early Middle English dialects, as well as general trends in West Germanic language development), I have decided to give West Saxon a face lift of sorts. I'm reworking it from the ground up, starting with the diachronics. The grammar shouldn't change too much, but there will be some modifications. I'll post the new list of Old to Modern West Saxon sound changes here, and will probably be adding to it as I rework and read. I'll also be posting a timeline of grammatical changes as well in the near future. Any feedback on this would be much appreciated.

Stresses:
Pretonic = occurs before a stressed syllable. Also includes prepositions and enclitic pronouns and the definite and specific articles
Tonic = a stressed syllable
Post-tonic = occurs after a stressed syllable, but still part of a word stem. Includes derivational suffixes
Inflectional = Stress applied to the syllables of inflectional endings


V = Short Vowel
V: = Long Vowel
V:: = Extra-Long Vowel
V(:) = Either Long or Short Vowel
V* = X-SAMPA V
C = Consonant
C: = Geminated Consonant
. = Syllable Boundary
Otherwise, use X-SAMPA

Old West Saxon Period
900-1250


V/V:/_(mb,ld,nd,rd,rn,rl,ng)(V,#)
V:/V/_CCC

a:/O:/_

(f,T,s,S)/(v,D,z,Z)/#_

ea/a/_
ea:/{:/_
{(:)/E(:)/_
eo(:)/2(:)/_
ie(:)/y(:)/_

(e,E)/a/w_

m/n/_. {pretonic,inflectional}
(a,o)/V*/_ {inflectional}

e/i/_(+nasal) {inflectional}

2(:)/jo/#_
y(:)/ju/#_

(V*,e)/@/_ {inflectional}

x/w/(+back)_V
x/j/(+front)_V

O:/o:/_w
(y:,2:)/(y,2)/_j
j/H/(y,2)_

(t,d)T/t/_#
d/t/_st

h(w,r,l)/(W,r_0,l_0)/#_
h//_(w,r,l,n)
(r,l)x/(r_0,l_0)/_

@(n,r,l)/(n=,r=,l=)/_ {inflectional}
(e,a,o)(n,r,l)/(n=,r=,l=)/_. {post-tonic}

(n=,r=,l=)/(n,r,l)/_V

Middle West Saxon Period
1250-1650


(i,u)/(e,o)/_[-nasal]

m/n/_s
m/n/s_ <except initially>

V/V_R/_# <V includes n=, l=, r=>

v(a,o,u)/w/V_C
v/w/V_[+voice]

e/i/_(+nasal) {post-tonic}

je/i/#_C {pretonic}
je/j/#_V {pretonic}

(mb,nd,Ng)/(m,n,N)/_ {pretonic}

sn/ns/V_V

(e,2,o)/(i,y,a)/_ {pretonic}
V:/V/_ {pretonic}

(n,r,l)V/(n=,r=,l=)/C_(C,#) {pretonic}
V//VC(C)_. {pretonic}

V//C_CV {inflectional}

l_0/K/#_
W/w/[+voice]_[+voice]
W/f/_

E(:)/e(:)/_ <Winchester and Kentish Dialects>

(i,y,u)/(e,2,o)/_[-nasal] {non-pretonic}

(tw,dw)/(kw,gw)/_

D/d/#_ {pretonic}

(r_0,l_0)/(r,l)/_

i(:)w/y(:)/_
e(:)w/2(:)/_

w/v/(z_V,#_(l,r))

gw(i,e,ei,a)(:)/g(y,2,2H,o)(:)/_
gw/g/_

n=/@n/[+nasal]_
r=/@r/r_
l=/@l/l_

V:/V/_(r,l).
(i:,y:,e:,2:,O:,o:,u:)/(ij,yH,ej,2H,Oa,ow,uw)/_ {tonic} <dialects with E: break to Ea>
V:/V/_

(ij,yH,uw)/(i,y,u)/_

C:/C/_

h//#_ {pretonic}

t//s_s

l//_r {pretonic}

@//C_C {inflectional} <so long as an illegal cluster is not created>

Modern West Saxon Period
1650-Present


ow/aw/_
ei/ai/_
ui/oi/_

(kn,gn)/N/#_

V/V::/_.[+voice]
V/V:/_[+voice]
V/V:/_.
V:/V/_[-voice].

j/J\_j/#_

(f,T,x)/(p,t,k)/_[+fricative]
(f,T,x)/(p,t,k)/(s,S)_

(t,d,k,g,n,s,S,l,r)j/(ts,dz,tS,dZ,J,S,S,L,4)/_

(mb,nd,Ng)/(m:,n:,N:)/_
(mp,nt,Nk)/(mb,nd,Ng)/_
[+fricative]/[+voiced]/[+voiced]_

n=/m=/[+labial]_
n=/N=/[+velar]_

(pm=,tn=,kN=)/(?m=,?n=,?N=)/_

S.s/S.S/_

(i,e)/(y,2)/S_

(k,g)/(c,J\)/_[+front]

(tS,dZ)/(S,Z)/_.

r/::/V_(+coronal)
Last edited by Herra Ratatoskr on Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by marconatrix »

WMiller wrote:Incidentally, anyone who knows where I can get some info on Medieval Cornish Grammar, I would appreciate it greatly. A Google search hasn't turned up too much.
If you're still here (I don't often look at this part of the site), I have to agree, there's not much grammar per se on the web. Some old books from the C19 but they're a bit confusing since the phonemics had still to be properly worked out. We don't really have any grammatical information prior to the Middle Cornish texts, before that it's just glosses and lists and names. So that would be c1400 c.e. up to the Reformation, after which the language rapidly falls apart.

If you have any particular questions, please ask. (One of these days I should think about wirting a grammar, so maybe your interest will encourage me, but don't hold your breath!)
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Post by TzirTzi »

On the same topic, you might find the modern Standard Written Form of Cornish useful. Obviously it isn't a grammar of Middle Cornish, but it might be a useful temporary/fallback source to fill in gaps in your data. If you haven't already found it, that is :). I wrote an assignment on the history of Cornish last year so I have a few references if you have access to a library - they're mostly on social history though, not really the language itself.

The sound changes look very interesting - I see that WS shares several sound changes in its early stages with English, so effectively you're descending from very EME? Though I guess as you have <ie> variously become /y y: jo jo: 2 2:/, the split has to have occurred very much in the OE period and just shared some later developments with English.

I'm intrigued by your single dialect-specific change :P Have you more worked out on dialects, or is this just the beginning of thoughts in that direction?
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Post by marconatrix »

Alas the SWF was a political fudge needed by the local government so they didn't get into arguments over how to spell "Welcome" on their doormats etc. It's a pick-n-mix solution that attempts to keep everyone happy and has pleased no one. Also there's no real evidence of serious usage. Essentially the problem is that 99.9% of people in Cornwall know no Cornish, so they expect written Cornish to look like the anglicised place names they're familiar with. Any system devised to represent the reconstructed phonology and please people who can read and write more than the odd word, is bound to look weird. Because the language died out between c1600 --1800, and never had a tradition of modern printed literature (e.g. no Bible translation) the idea of duel spelling of names etc., like you see in Britany or Ireland hasn't really taken root in the popular mind. Many people want to 'own' the language, so they can wave it around like a flag, to prove Cornwall isn't part of England, but will never ever get round to learning it (always next year ...) Aaargh, enough! :evil:
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

TzirTzi wrote:The sound changes look very interesting - I see that WS shares several sound changes in its early stages with English, so effectively you're descending from very EME? Though I guess as you have <ie> variously become /y y: jo jo: 2 2:/, the split has to have occurred very much in the OE period and just shared some later developments with English.

I'm intrigued by your single dialect-specific change :P Have you more worked out on dialects, or is this just the beginning of thoughts in that direction?
Most of the early sound changes were thought to be from the very end of the OE period, and I also allowed for some linguistic "momentum" before I started diverging away from historical changes. I based the chronology on this paper(pdf alert), from this site. TzirTzi, you might find that site helpful for your OE/EME descendant. How's that coming by the way? I've edited the sound changes a bit, so that eo becomes 2 universally, and later both 2 and y break into jo and ju initially, to make the change more reasonable, and to keep more consistent with "real" OE from 1066.

I've given quite a bit of thought to the dialects, and have made some plans for each one's grammar and phonology. I've only included that one because all non-standard dialects (except for the small Kentish dialect), have undergone it.

Some other dialect sound changes include:

d,T//V_r

T/d/_

w/v/_ (noticing some continental influence? :D)

mb, nd, Ng/b: d: g:/_
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Post by Mbwa »

I've never commented in this thread before, but I should've. I really like the language. It has some familiarity, but does retain a more archaic, Germanic feel. I didn't read too in depth on any of the articles, but it looks well done. Nice job, man.
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Post by TzirTzi »

WMiller wrote:Most of the early sound changes were thought to be from the very end of the OE period, and I also allowed for some linguistic "momentum" before I started diverging away from historical changes. I based the chronology on this paper(pdf alert), from this site. TzirTzi, you might find that site helpful for your OE/EME descendant. How's that coming by the way? I've edited the sound changes a bit, so that eo becomes 2 universally, and later both 2 and y break into jo and ju initially, to make the change more reasonable, and to keep more consistent with "real" OE from 1066.

I've given quite a bit of thought to the dialects, and have made some plans for each one's grammar and phonology. I've only included that one because all non-standard dialects (except for the small Kentish dialect), have undergone it.

Some other dialect sound changes include:

d,T//V_r

T/d/_

w/v/_ (noticing some continental influence? :D)

mb, nd, Ng/b: d: g:/_
Good stuff :D Historical "momentum" as you say makes sense. It's one of the often unrealistic features of a posteriori conlangs (and a priori conlang families) that they fail to take this into account. I do indeed see some of the continental influence.

Thanks for the link to that pdf, btw - it states some stuff differently to my understanding of it. Such as /e(:)o/ > /2(:)/ in the South West, which is much more interesting than /e(:)o/ > /e(:)/. In mine I've been moving away from my original idea the more I read and towards a south-west-derived language. Thus atm I have retention of /y y:/, CrVC>CVrC, voicing of initial fricatives (which was always going to happen anyway - I love West Country dialect ^^) and retention of some case forms lost in other dialects (such as gen pl -ena). Atm I'm working on declension and on a version of Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight as a first sample text. But the soundchanges keep changing as well, of course.

[Un "UItle:ndIZn@ "knIs\t "kO:m @t do: nOEr\dlo:ndm=]...
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Herra Ratatoskr
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Interesting. It seems like your project is following a similar path to mine (West Saxon started out as "Tecg", a languaged based on the northumbrian/east midlands dialects before I decided to switch it to a West Saxon derivative. Great minds think alike?). If that's the route you're going, then I'll take the time to pimp this e-book again. Might give you some food for thought.

I've also updated the sound change list a bit again as well.
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TzirTzi
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Post by TzirTzi »

WMiller wrote:Interesting. It seems like your project is following a similar path to mine (West Saxon started out as "Tecg", a languaged based on the northumbrian/east midlands dialects before I decided to switch it to a West Saxon derivative. Great minds think alike?). If that's the route you're going, then I'll take the time to pimp this e-book again. Might give you some food for thought.

I've also updated the sound change list a bit again as well.
Great minds think alike indeed - though hopefully not so much as to create uninterestingly similar results at the end of the day. Thanks for the link :) I had in fact already downloaded it after you posted it in the l&l museum - an excelent book indeed.
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