Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:27 pm

So, I thought I'd take a look at this thread today, and try to pick out things that should be moved to the new board. Turns out there's a lot of really interesting discussion in here that I'd forgotten about, including lots of details about, e.g., the Empire of Athale, that I don't think made it into the wiki-- maybe partly because they were presented as tentative at the time. I would like to revisit all that old stuff, sort through it, and decide what of it is still valid and what's obsolete; but it doesn't seem very useful to copy-paste whole pages of conversation from two years ago. What do you all think is the best way to go about this? Maybe I could start threads there with links to the relevant discussions here?

I think I will copy some specific discussions that are more limited in scope-- e.g. climate. And I'll keep looking through here and see what else I find....

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:15 am

EDIT: oopsies, having webspace issues. I will update when they are resolved (which may mean using a different account, hence removal of the link).

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:27 am

I'm having a creative block thinking up a proper name for Ulessa (PPI *ŋlatiax) (which is merely the word for language). Suggestions? Endonyms or exonyms will do...

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:12 am

Maybe add a demonym, e.g. *marnaç-hŋ ŋlatiax "language of the peninsular people"? You could also choose a different word as the head, e.g. an infinitive of *katar "to talk" - I don't know whether your conpeople would use the α-, β-, or γ-infinitive though...

On a related note, could you possibly add a smooth English translation of the sample text to the PPI page?

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:43 pm

It's an Aesop fable - The fisherman and the little fish. I should think up a longer text for translation though... hmmm.

The thing is, I want to avoid ending up with a situation whereby the demonyms and/or language names end up being cognate, like what happened for Ndak Ta...

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:06 am

I decided to go with Nerysthe (Νερῡσθέ /ne.r}:.st_he/) as the country name. The adjectival form is Nerysthaic (patterned on the native adjective νερῡσθαῖκρι /ne.r}:s."t_haI.kri/), and the demonym is Nerystha (νερῡσθά /ne.r}:".st_ha/), pl. Nerysthar (νερῡσθάρα /ne."r}:."st_ha.ra/). I'm thinking of placing the principal / capital city at the top of the little bay on the western side of the peninsula... this probably places it on / near the Xšali border.

Now to actually create the language and culture...

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:37 pm

I've just come back to looking at the Eige-Isthmus diachronics, and they're still staring obstinately back. I think I could really use a fresh perspective. If anyone's interested in helping out, I've started a thread over here.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:15 pm

Inspiration has struck. I've held off on reporting it because inspirational ghosts frequently come and go - vaporware conlang ideas are always coming to me. But this one feels promising. A whole stew of things I've thought for ages now would be fun to do in a conlang, but never necessarily intended to put together, have gradually coalesced into a clear vision that has taken up all my creative time for the last couple weeks. It's still in the early stages; I can't put together any example sentences yet, but I do have a solid idea of how they will work. (In advance of deciding on morphology or even some of the phonology, which is quite the reverse of my usual order for approaching topics in a conlang.)

Originally, months back, this started as a penciled-in language called Kennan Kei, intended to be a superstrate from which my future Mûtsipsa' daughter borrows. But my conception of it has evolved repeatedly and no longer resembles the original sketch. I'm not sure anymore it would even still be good for that purpose... but I'll still be happy to place it in Akana if we can find a good role for it.

Some basic characteristics:
* a classic postpositional, case-marking, SOV syntax template with NOM-ACC alignment.
* the grammar pays close attention to spatial grounding - there is extensive spatial deixis and directional marking.
* a strict verbal valence distinction is observed. There are few ambitransitive verbs (for me, a refreshing departure from the usual Edastean pattern of relatively valence-insensitive syntax).
* a lexicon rich in semantically vivid verbs, with much lexical encoding of manner and instrumental information.
* a rich stock of ideophonic words, occuring both as their own syntactic category and also frequently in other parts of speech.
* verbs that tend strongly to occur in lexical pairs differentiated by valence, with relatively obscured morphological relationships and often idiosyncratic semantic relationships between pair members.

The downside is that the phonology may be disappointingly Germanicky, especially given the Viking-esque cultural setting for the Kennan. Not a total clone, but the resemblance stands out immediately. That's the main reason I have qualms about using this for Kennan Kei. The long and short of it is that after all these years of putting originality ahead of appeal, I want to indulge my taste in natlangs for once. So perhaps this will have to be a non-Akana conlang. But I wanted to bring up the issue and see what you guys think about it.

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:22 pm

Sounds like a nice set of features - I'd be interested to see what the end result looked like. What sort of morphology were you thinking of?

As to whether it should be in Akana, I don't feel qualified to have much of an opinion given my lack of contributions, but I wouldn't see any problem with a lang one part of which was aesthetically as opposed to originality motivated. It's not as though you're proposing to make a wholly ON clone by any means...

Edit: also, particularly like the verbs occuring in lexical valence-differentiated but morphologically obscure pairs. That sounds awesome. Would you do a protolang and some odd sound changes to produce the pairs or create them a priori?

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:18 am

I like that grammar outline too. Incidentally, it seems to fit in quite well with one of the major linguistic blanks we have: What if your project turns out to be Doroh? Proto-Isthmus is SOV and NOM-ACC, and apart from the retroflexes, its roots look rather Germanicky too. What you're building would also be a huge step in the development of Eigə-Isthmus grammar...

Of course there would be a few constraints: Firstly, you would have to collaborate with Corumayas somewhat, and to take into account our existing ideas about PEI/PI grammar (that's not much, mainly this and this). Secondly, you'd have to build your phonology from what we know about PI. Of the sound changes listed here, you could use what you like and throw away everything else. Have a look at the talk page as well, where I put up some possible modifications. The only important things are that PI *ʈ *ɖ *j, initial vowels, and sC clusters survive at least until the Eastern Isthmus stage (otherwise the reconstruction would not be possible), and that Doroh should turn out to have rounded front vowels, which we were thinking to have as an areal feature shared by Doroh, Lotoka, and Affanonic.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:55 am

TzirTzi wrote: Edit: also, particularly like the verbs occuring in lexical valence-differentiated but morphologically obscure pairs. That sounds awesome. Would you do a protolang and some odd sound changes to produce the pairs or create them a priori?

I hadn't intended to create a substantial diachronic grounding, no. Instead I've been thinking to set out some of the major developments underlying the present language, enough to provide a basis for consistent sound alternations etc. without going to the trouble of constructing a full parent. And I've already decided on much of that. However, see below:

cedh audmanh wrote:I like that grammar outline too. Incidentally, it seems to fit in quite well with one of the major linguistic blanks we have: What if your project turns out to be Doroh? Proto-Isthmus is SOV and NOM-ACC, and apart from the retroflexes, its roots look rather Germanicky too. What you're building would also be a huge step in the development of Eigə-Isthmus grammar...

Hmmmm! I actually hadn't thought of grafting this into Isthmus, but that is a natural connection to make, as you're right. And not just Doroh, but the whole of Isthmus really; in fact one of the thoughts I'd had was that since I'd found Faraghin disappointingly Germanic-esque, I wouldn't want to add another such conlang to the pile. But having them be related would go a long way towards excusing it, wouldn't it...

Of course there would be a few constraints: Firstly, you would have to collaborate with Corumayas somewhat, and to take into account our existing ideas about PEI/PI grammar (that's not much, mainly this and this). Secondly, you'd have to build your phonology from what we know about PI. Of the sound changes listed here, you could use what you like and throw away everything else. Have a look at the talk page as well, where I put up some possible modifications. The only important things are that PI *ʈ *ɖ *j, initial vowels, and sC clusters survive at least until the Eastern Isthmus stage (otherwise the reconstruction would not be possible), and that Doroh should turn out to have rounded front vowels, which we were thinking to have as an areal feature shared by Doroh, Lotoka, and Affanonic.

Hmm, well, but. The phoneme inventory is already pretty much decided on, barring the possible future addition of one or two more consonants (In particular I'm thinking a /?\/ might be a good fit). So maybe not Doroh. What if, instead, this language is a sister of it? Kietek/Ka'alikora are already penciled in, so this could easily be one of those - which would fit nicely with the coastal northwest Siixtaguna origin I'd had in mind for the Kennan. There's also no big reason we couldn't tag an extra Eastern Isthmus language onto the list, or even several if desired.

A brief summary of the phonological basics is here.

I think your idea is workable. But there are some issues:

-- In principle I'd be open to adding front rounded vowels, preferably a series of them if so - ö ü öü to be the fronted versions of o u ou. But I'm concerned this would pull the conlang even more Germanicwards, since the umlaut diacritic is the only sensible representation, let alone the fact these vowels would have to arise from an umlaut process too. On the other hand, an areal front-rounded vowel tendency is a good idea, and you even missed another nearby language that has them - Mûtsipsa'. And I retained its /y/ in Kozzang Fasa, too - which is supposed to be influenced by the "Kennan Kei" language, so giving the latter front-rounded vowels as well would definitely fit the bill, helping support the retention in Fasa. So... I don't know.

-- Something I really didn't want to do with this language is give it a fully described diachronic history. I wanted to work on something I could create ex nihilo. Again, in principle I would be open to changing the gameplan. But there are two consequences I am unhappy with: 1. developing the lexicon will then be dependent on truly finalizing PEI's, or at least PI's, which at the present rate might not happen for years yet. Or ever. And 2. it's a lot more work. The more ambitious the project, the longer it takes to get done and the less likely it ever will.

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:00 pm

Hmm. Well, if you want to make your idea an Isthmus lang, that'd be ok with me-- it'd give me a kick in the rear to get working on Isthmus. And I wouldn't mind incorporating your ideas, nor adjusting some of what I've proposed to fit them.

On the other hand, it could instead be genetically unrelated, but share several areal features with Isthmus. I've long thought that there should be a strong head-final tendency in the region, to explain the shift of PI (and later on Qedik, too) to OV & postpositional. And of course they could also share phonological traits.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:57 am

The more I look at it, the more grafting this onto Isthmus appears feasible, provided it's not Doroh, but still laborious. So I'm still undecided.

At the very minimum, I would need the PI roots list to have all its variables resolved into specific forms. Preferably, basic morphology should be finalized too, if there's to be any morphological correspondence between "Kennan" and the rest of Isthmus. I could do all of this myself, but it would feel like stepping on Corumayas' established territory...

Also I would indeed have to throw out or modify some of the Eastern Isthmus sound changes (perhaps replacing some with others). Most of them are mostly compatible with where I want to go, but a few aren't compatible at all. I think I can keep all of the important ones: the initial vowels and the retroflexes are fine and can all be dealt with at later stages, and I need all the sC clusters I can get anyway. The changes I would definitely have to drop: f>w, w>0/C_, and s>h/_#.

I'm wondering if I might be able to get away with a halfway-diachronic derivation from Eastern Isthmus rather than a full-blown history with every detail attended to. That is, if I make sure there are regular correspondences for all the main sounds in their most common environments, but allow many details of less-frequent situations to remain hazy (perhaps to be reconstructed later should anyone wish to do so) and not attempt to provide an Isthmus etymology for more than half-ish of my lexicon. Given that there's 3500 years between PI and Kennan, and perhaps 2500 between Eastern Isthmus and Kennan, there seems to be plenty enough time depth for many historical relationships to be obscured into nullity.

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:58 pm

What you just described seems fine to me; and I can work with you on the PI groundwork you need if you decide to do it. Maybe we should schedule a chat on IRC?

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:40 am

Legion - as far as I could find, no-one else has taken up Proto-Coastal-Western since you made the project open, so I've been doing a little work on it. I couldn't work out, however, what happened to onset clusters of C+/K/ from PW. Such clusters certainly occur in PW - e.g. /kKama/, "berries" - but aren't listed in the possible onset clusters in what you had done so far on PCW, and I couldn't find anywhere in the sound changes that got rid of them. If this is a mistake then I'll probably change it and keep them, as I rather like them (por ejemplo, <głè7hàh> /gKe_L?.ha_Lh/, "game animal", is an awesome word) but if you had some specific result in mind for them then could you point out what I've missed?

Thus also generally - is anyone interested in PCW or can I claim this project for now?

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:35 am

TzirTzi wrote:is anyone interested in PCW or can I claim this project for now?

I've done a bit of work on a close sister of PCW, which shares (more or less) the first half of the sound changes. I don't know yet how far this will come though, and it doesn't affect PCW at all. If anything, seeing how PCW grammar turns out will give me inspiration for my little project...

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:26 am

TzirTzi wrote:Legion - as far as I could find, no-one else has taken up Proto-Coastal-Western since you made the project open, so I've been doing a little work on it. I couldn't work out, however, what happened to onset clusters of C+/K/ from PW. Such clusters certainly occur in PW - e.g. /kKama/, "berries" - but aren't listed in the possible onset clusters in what you had done so far on PCW, and I couldn't find anywhere in the sound changes that got rid of them. If this is a mistake then I'll probably change it and keep them, as I rather like them (por ejemplo, <g> /gKe_L?.ha_Lh/, "game animal", is an awesome word) but if you had some specific result in mind for them then could you point out what I've missed?

Thus also generally - is anyone interested in PCW or can I claim this project for now?

Please do. Meanwhile I'm working on Lukpanic. I have no idea what the eventual synthesis of the two will look like, but it should be cool!

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:40 am

cedh audmanh wrote:I've done a bit of work on a close sister of PCW, which shares (more or less) the first half of the sound changes. I don't know yet how far this will come though, and it doesn't affect PCW at all. If anything, seeing how PCW grammar turns out will give me inspiration for my little project...

Cool

I'll be interested in seeing your sisterlang when you've finished enough to put some online also..

boy #12 wrote:Please do. Meanwhile I'm working on Lukpanic. I have no idea what the eventual synthesis of the two will look like, but it should be cool!

Good stuff!

Thus here is a rough but filled-out outline of PCW nominal morphology, which I intend to be relatively conservative.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:55 pm

Hmm, I seem to have forgotten to give back the link when the webspace issues were resolved. All of my main Akana material is again online. Here's the link:

http://staff.washington.edu/salmiak/akana/

Corumayas: For the next few days I will be mostly around in the mornings and early afternoons, Pacific time (I'm in the same time zone as you). I'll stay logged into #akana in case you swing by; or give me a time and I'll do my best to be present.

But evenings are out, at least for the next few days.

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:17 am

... So, I couldn't decide on an asthetic point in PCW and wrote out a whole long post asking for opinions. However, in doing so I convinced myself of the right answer, thus invalidating the post

. The outcome, for any interested parties, is that in PCW the ergative argument will be marked on the verb with the suffix -ga-/-ge7i-/-gełi- (inanimates/singular animate/plural animate) but not with full classifiers, for the sake of keeping the size of the fast-expanding verbal complex down...

Anyway, PCW now has verbal morphology also.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:46 am

PCW looks good so far

The sound changes should give one cool alternation you haven't included yet: the classifiers -ta- and -tsa- should change their initial consonant to /k/ when following /o u/, merging in this environment. Likewise, the 2p absolutive verbal markers -tha-/-thà- should become -kha-/-khà- after /o u/.

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:17 am

cedh audmanh wrote:PCW looks good so far

The sound changes should give one cool alternation you haven't included yet: the classifiers -ta- and -tsa- should change their initial consonant to /k/ when following /o u/, merging in this environment. Likewise, the 2p absolutive verbal markers -tha-/-thà- should become -kha-/-khà- after /o u/.

Thanks

and very true! I'd forgotten about that sc. I'll add those alternations in...

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:34 am

Basics of syntax now added.

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:00 am

Yay for triple posting.

Proto-Coastal-Western grammar (finished)
Proto-Coastal-Western lexicon (basically finished, though wouldn't be harmed by some more expansion and semantic shifts)

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:44 pm

Tzirtzi > awesome work! And sorry I completly failed to notice you asked me stuff earlier. You seem to have resolved the problem yourself though, good job!