Conlang Diachronics Relay II (now with schedule!)

eodrakken · Post by **eodrakken** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:18 pm

Çetázó looks good! But I think I'm going to go ahead and start from PW.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:07 pm

OK, so Curlyjimsam and ingolemo are starting from Çetázó, and eodrakken from PW. Your goal date is Sunday November 1st.

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Nortaneous:
If you're not too hard pressed with your time budget towards the end of the round, it might be good if you could wait for Drydic to finish his language, and then decide whether you want to go from there or from PCW.

Skomakar'n:
The Proto-Western site works for me, so maybe you could have another try there. Of course you might also want to look at the two daughterlanguages that exist so far, Proto-Coastal-Western (PDF) and Çetázó.

WeepingElf · Post by **WeepingElf** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:19 pm

cedh audmanh wrote: @WeepingElf:
I have to agree with Radius - Çetázó is pretty cool! Fairly conservative in many respects, but still significantly different from PW. I especially like the way you're creating adjectives by analogy with the pattern of numerals/demonstratives. Only there seems to be rather little semantic shifting or recent derivation in the lexicon... Anyway, thumbs up!

Sure, the lexicon is highly conservative - I ran rather dry on ideas regarding that: I basically suck at lexical work, so I just applied the sound changes to the Proto-Western lexicon and left it at that, mostly. This is also the reason why the lexicon of Old Albic makes so little progress, BTW.

Nortaneous · Post by **Nortaneous** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:37 pm

cedh audmanh wrote:Nortaneous:
If you're not too hard pressed with your time budget towards the end of the round, it might be good if you could wait for Drydic to finish his language, and then decide whether you want to go from there or from PCW.

As far as I know, I don't have any major time problems, so I'll do that.

Tiamat · Post by **Tiamat** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:37 pm

What were some of the writing systems used around -100 YP?

I may not have everything done by the dead line next week so I'm going to put up some stuff on phonology, verbs and sound changes just in case I'm not ready by then. That way the next person will be able to start working.

Kuanye · Post by **Kuanye** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:07 pm

I should like to join this relay, feel free to schedule me in, please.

Tiamat · Post by **Tiamat** » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:11 pm

If anyone in the second stage wants to look at my entry and start working on some ideas, here is the phonology and sound changes for Gaadràmarneš. I'll have more up soon if it looks like I won't make the deadline, but if it looks like I will make the deadline I put everything up at once.

And have we decided on what sample text we're using.

4pq1injbok · Post by **4pq1injbok** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:28 am

This is cheating wrt the relay

but I was reading the Proto-Peninsular description again a few days ago and as I was walking later that day I found myself formulating a set of sound changes from it (EDIT: here). I don't want to develop it any further if it would be competing for space that someone else in the Relay ought to have -- but perhaps there's a place for it of some sort?

Dewrad · Post by **Dewrad** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:17 am

4pq1injbok wrote:This is cheating wrt the relay but I was reading the Proto-Peninsular description again a few days ago and as I was walking later that day I found myself formulating a set of sound changes from it. I don't want to develop it any further if it would be competing for space that someone else in the Relay ought to have -- but perhaps there's a place for it of some sort?

An unknown, sparsely attested language?

eodrakken · Post by **eodrakken** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:17 am

cedh audmanh wrote:That's not what I meant. The text seems to use classifiers for ergative arguments, where, judging from the description, I would expect to see the general 3.ERG morpheme *-ka-. Several of the verb forms contain two classifiers. As I understand it, there should be only one classifier in each verb, and it should refer to the absolutive argument.

I have the same question. Did this already get answered somewhere?

Also:

Dewrad, with cedh's glosses wrote:wadžedza-ka-wa ya-ši-ʔi ʔałpadza-ka-ne
kill-3.ERG-3.ABS.{human} ANAPHOR-{intangible}-ERG anger-3.ERG-1SG.ERG
That you killed him angers me.

The PW actually seems to say "That he killed him angers me". That aside, it looks like "anger" mistakenly has two ergative markers, unless I've missed something. Should it be ʔałpadzakana?

Dewrad, with cedh's glosses wrote:mina-ʔi ʔe-tʰẽʔpi-0 tletle-wa ya-ši-0 čʰiłta-ka-wa
mother-ERG 3SG-daughter-ABS prepare_leather-3.ABS.{human} ANAPHOR-{intangible}-ABS teach-3.ERG-3.ABS.{human}
The mother teaches her daughter to prepare leather.

Here shouldn't "mother" be in the construct case because it's the possessor of "daughter"? (ie, loosely, "The mother's daughter prepares leather, that [is what] she teaches her"?)

Dewrad, with cedh's glosses wrote:sa-ʔi kʰeči γuči-γ dzupʰu-nã-ta
1PL-ERG instead fish-ABS.{edible} catch-1PL.ERG-3.ABS.{solid edible object}
We caught fish instead.

This is meant to exemplify that particles follow the head of the first phrase of the clause, which apparently is the ergative argument. Would it be correct for the particle to come first if there were no overt ergative argument (ie, kʰeči γučiγ dzupʰunãta)?

eta: One more.

Dewrad, with cedh's glosses wrote:yamayaʔa-kʷi ta-ʔu γʷeku=tʰatʰa-wa-ši ya-ši-0 bẽdza-luʔki-wa-ši ye.
human-PL.ERG 2SG.CONS quick=use-3.ABS.{human}-3.ABS.{intangible} ANAPHOR-{intangible}-ABS know-EVID.{physical evidence}-3.ABS.{human}-3.ABS.{intangible} NEG
"Humans do not know how to use your swiftness."

This is one that cedh flagged as questionable, but even if you replace the problematic -wa- classifiers with -ka- ergative markers, it's still weird:

? yamayaʔa-kʷi ta-ʔu γʷeku=tʰatʰa-ka-ši
human-PL.ERG 2SG.CONS quick=use-3.ERG-3.ABS.{intangible}
Humans use your swiftness

The grammar doesn't mention compounding that looks like this. Is the affixation of γʷeku "quick" to the verb a typo? If so it'd look like this:

? yamayaʔakʷi ta-ʔu γʷeku-0 tʰatʰa-ka-ši
human-PL.ERG 2SG.CONS quick-SG.ABS use-3.ERG-3.ABS.{intangible}
Humans use your swiftness

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:55 am

*briefly stops by in a break from revision for mid-terms*

WeepingElf - Çetázó looks awesome

I've just had great fun going through it with PCW side-by-side and comparing the different directions that they've gone in (both have productive i-umlaut, interestingly, por ejemplo). On the lexicon issue, the PCW lexicon is also similarly relatively conservative - perhaps this is an areal/familial trait?

Vortex - Gaadràmarneš looks very promising

Yay for /Q:/ ^_^ a fantastic and under-used vowel.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:53 pm

Kuanye wrote:I should like to join this relay, feel free to schedule me in, please.

No problem. Do you have any preference which language family to work with, and/or when to take your turn?

4pq1injbok wrote:This is cheating wrt the relay but I was reading the Proto-Peninsular description again a few days ago and as I was walking later that day I found myself formulating a set of sound changes from it. I don't want to develop it any further if it would be competing for space that someone else in the Relay ought to have -- but perhaps there's a place for it of some sort?

I've been imagining the Peninsular region as being populated by a fairly large number of small forest tribes practicing some garden agriculture, at least for the first generation of PPI langs. If this scenario is correct, there should be ample space for one more language, provided you don't want a too large number of speakers.

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eodrakken wrote:This is one that cedh flagged as questionable, but even if you replace the problematic -wa- classifiers with -ka- ergative markers, it's still weird:

? yamayaʔa-kʷi ta-ʔu γʷeku=tʰatʰa-ka-ši
human-PL.ERG 2SG.CONS quick=use-3.ERG-3.ABS.{intangible}
Humans use your swiftness

The grammar doesn't mention compounding that looks like this. Is the affixation of γʷeku "quick" to the verb a typo? If so it'd look like this:

? yamayaʔakʷi ta-ʔu γʷeku-0 tʰatʰa-ka-ši
human-PL.ERG 2SG.CONS quick-SG.ABS use-3.ERG-3.ABS.{intangible}
Humans use your swiftness

Maybe it would be a good idea to use the abstract nominalizer -tu- here?

? yamayaʔakʷi ta-ʔu γʷeku-tu-0 tʰatʰa-ka-ši
human-PL.ERG 2SG.CONS quick-ABSTRACT-SG.ABS use-3.ERG-3.ABS.{intangible}
Humans use your swiftness

eodrakken · Post by **eodrakken** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:08 pm

cedh audmanh wrote:Maybe it would be a good idea to use the abstract nominalizer -tu- here?

I thought of that too, but then it'd be harder to explain it as a missed-spacebar typo. Depends on whether adjective-ish roots are fundamentally "the quality of X" or more like "a thing that is X". If the root already describes a quality then you wouldn't need to add anything. Hopefully Dewrad will enlighten us. :)

Tiamat · Post by **Tiamat** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:29 pm

I'm going to need an extension, since this weekend I have my grandmother's 80th birthday and my family is making it a weekend long thing. But since I do have stuff online the next person can still start working on stuff.

roninbodhisattva · Post by **roninbodhisattva** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:51 pm

Happy birthday grandma!

Kuanye · Post by **Kuanye** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:12 am

I'd like to do a Peninsular Language, and my due date is flexible, can do any of the upcoming ones (besides the 25th of October, perhaps).

Amuere · Post by **Amuere** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:18 pm

Sweet job on Gaadràmarneš, Vortex! I like what you've done!

Trailsend · Post by **Trailsend** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:02 pm

Hey, cedh? Would it be possible for me to move to Round IV?

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:05 pm

Currently the following are running late:

Drydic Guy
Vortex

And the following are currently in the midst of their turns:

eodrakken
Curlyjimsam
ingolemo
nebula wind phone

May I please request that all of the above make a status report so everyone can know what's going on? Thanks.

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Trailsend: consider yourself moved.

4pq1injbok · Post by **4pq1injbok** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:18 pm

All of Zhen Lin's language sketches have gone down with Geocities. Hopefully they're soon to reappear somewhere else...?

edit_2: They have: for those who haven't been watching the Cursed Relay thread

eodrakken · Post by **eodrakken** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:24 pm

Radius Solis wrote:May I please request that all of the above make a status report so everyone can know what's going on? Thanks. :)

I'm basically done, all I have to do is make it pretty and figure out my new ISP's FTP system so I can upload it. It'll definitely be up by my deadline.

Tiamat · Post by **Tiamat** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:04 pm

If anyone wants to start working off of mine I have enough to get started and everything should be up by the Monday morning at the latest.

roninbodhisattva · Post by **roninbodhisattva** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:34 pm

I think I'mma need to completely step out at this point. I just have entirely too much to do right now. hopefully, at some point, I'll be able to resign up.

brandrinn · Post by **brandrinn** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:17 pm

I`d like to join round III of either team if possible. I can offer two things:

1) a guarantee that I will actually produce something before the deadline.

2) it will actually flow organically from the parent language, rather than abruptly change character.

If nobody produces anything by the 1st, I will make a daughter of Cetazo.

Are we using the same map as last time? What time period/level of technology are we starting from?

4pq1injbok · Post by **4pq1injbok** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:39 pm

If roninbodhisattva's stepping out leaves an opening in round II on the Peninsular side, I could step into it -- that way I'd get to use my sound changes from Proto-Peninsular.