Hygiene

[So Haleza Grise]

Verdurians, despite the fact that they bathe more than humans at the same level, would still be pretty dirty right? And I bet their teeth would be no good. And what about other Almeans? Despite their preferences, I'm guessing eg. the average subsistence peasant doesn't have time/ability to bathe much.

Does anyone else wonder with time travel fiction how the overwhelming impression that one of us would get would be ubiquitous grime and filth?

[zompist]

On hygiene: Yeah, sure. But surely this is old news for fans of history, historical fiction, or fantasy. It formed the basis for the beginning of Patrick Süskind's Perfume (1985).

Most Almean humans would be far cleaner than medieval Europeans, but dirtier than modern Americans. But this would really only evident to a terrestrial traveler. If you're born into a society, you are pretty much used to its usual stink. (In my SF novel, set in AD 4901, I have an ancient revived 21st century person, whose "early man smell" is pretty rank in the far future.)

As for teeth, I'm not sure-- isn't sugar the main culprit for cavities?

[dhok]

On hygiene: Yeah, sure. But surely this is old news for fans of history, historical fiction, or fantasy. It formed the basis for the beginning of Patrick Süskind's Perfume (1985).

Most Almean humans would be far cleaner than medieval Europeans, but dirtier than modern Americans. But this would really only evident to a terrestrial traveler. If you're born into a society, you are pretty much used to its usual stink. (In my SF novel, set in AD 4901, I have an ancient revived 21st century person, whose "early man smell" is pretty rank in the far future.)

As for teeth, I'm not sure-- isn't sugar the main culprit for cavities?

I believe tooth decay started with the cultivation of grain, but worsened when sugar became common.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

As for teeth, I'm not sure-- isn't sugar the main culprit for cavities?

Tea is a culprit as well. There are reasons why Japanese people have so badly cared teeth.

[eodrakken]

Tooth decay is also affected by location. In sandy regions, sand grains get in everyone's food, which is why the ancient Egyptians had such rotten teeth.

[-]

The main advantages that industrialized modernity has in terms of hygiene are the invention of the extensive modern sewer, germ theories of disease leading to sterilization and antiseptics, and the awesome array of tools employed in modern dentistry (though dentistry did exist, contrary to popular belief, in prior eras). Probably the biggest shock to the system in time-travelling to prior epochs in most places would be acclimatizing to how they dispose of human waste -- even the advanced Roman public latrine would gross out a modern traveller -- though this would vary widely depending on who you're associating with. (If you were in with the aristocracy, you could find flush toilets in use from Pharaonic Egypt onwards.) The infamous filth of cities with rivers of sewage running down the middle of streets was a relatively unusual phenomenon, though, not a common one, in history.

The notion that many seem to have today that we virtually invented bathing and cleaning teeth is a fallacy. Toothpaste is five thousand years old at a minimum. Even if this was a mostly aristocratic phenomeneon, simpler populations have used teeth-cleaning twigs -- made from trees with antimicrobial and aromatic properties and which provide similar protection to the modern toothbrush -- for far longer (I wouldn't be surprised to find this goes deep back into the Stone Ages, though how far I have no idea). Soap became widespread during the so-called Dark Ages, from whose hygiene standards the so-called Renaissance was in many ways a climb down that wasn't reversed for several centuries.

There's no reason to assume subsistence peasants would be filthy. Even the poorest of people generally have access to water sources in which they can bathe and do the laundry. The widespread myth that European peasants in the Middle Ages bathed only once a year is just that, a myth.

[So Haleza Grise]

The main advantages that industrialized modernity has in terms of hygiene are the invention of the extensive modern sewer, germ theories of disease leading to sterilization and antiseptics, and the awesome array of tools employed in modern dentistry (though dentistry did exist, contrary to popular belief, in prior eras). Probably the biggest shock to the system in time-travelling to prior epochs in most places would be acclimatizing to how they dispose of human waste -- even the advanced Roman public latrine would gross out a modern traveller -- though this would vary widely depending on who you're associating with. (If you were in with the aristocracy, you could find flush toilets in use from Pharaonic Egypt onwards.) The infamous filth of cities with rivers of sewage running down the middle of streets was a relatively unusual phenomenon, though, not a common one, in history.

The notion that many seem to have today that we virtually invented bathing and cleaning teeth is a fallacy. Toothpaste is five thousand years old at a minimum. Even if this was a mostly aristocratic phenomeneon, simpler populations have used teeth-cleaning twigs -- made from trees with antimicrobial and aromatic properties and which provide similar protection to the modern toothbrush -- for far longer (I wouldn't be surprised to find this goes deep back into the Stone Ages, though how far I have no idea). Soap became widespread during the so-called Dark Ages, from whose hygiene standards the so-called Renaissance was in many ways a climb down that wasn't reversed for several centuries.

There's no reason to assume subsistence peasants would be filthy. Even the poorest of people generally have access to water sources in which they can bathe and do the laundry. The widespread myth that European peasants in the Middle Ages bathed only once a year is just that, a myth.

Interesting as always ils, thanks!

[con quesa]

On hygiene: Yeah, sure. But surely this is old news for fans of history, historical fiction, or fantasy. It formed the basis for the beginning of Patrick Süskind's Perfume (1985).

Most Almean humans would be far cleaner than medieval Europeans, but dirtier than modern Americans. But this would really only evident to a terrestrial traveler. If you're born into a society, you are pretty much used to its usual stink. (In my SF novel, set in AD 4901, I have an ancient revived 21st century person, whose "early man smell" is pretty rank in the far future.)

As for teeth, I'm not sure-- isn't sugar the main culprit for cavities?

I'm curious, what are the people in 4901 doing differently, hygene-wise, that we're not?

[Neek]

Two words: Nano. Machines.

[Torco]

I wouldn't want a tiny molecular robot licking my scrotum clean

then again, I'm not form zomp's 4901

[Neek]

I wouldn't want a tiny molecular robot licking my scrotum clean

then again, I'm not form zomp's 4901

Tiny molecular robots licking my scrotum clean? Does it tickle? If so, sign me up!

[Torco]

I don't think any but the most sensitive of scrota can sense the action of a sub-molecular tounge

--- I never would have imagined that phrase actually making sense.

[Shm Jay]

Maybe it’s just that everyone has adopted the bidet by then and they consider toilet paper, even the softest 3-ply toilet paper, as barbaric as using leaves.

[Salmoneus]

I guess this thread was sort of like Shm-bait...

[Shm Jay]

I did recently read a book about the Roman toilet... Latrinae et foricae : toilets in the Roman world.

[Mashmakhan]

As for teeth, I'm not sure-- isn't sugar the main culprit for cavities?

Tea is a culprit as well. There are reasons why Japanese people have so badly cared teeth.

Umm, no. Tea by itself is actually helps to clean your teeth. It's the sugar in black tea that makes it bad for your teeth. The Japanese custom of painting one's teeth black was fashionable for women because showing your teeth was considered to be rude or embaressing. That is why Japanese people often cover their mouths when they laugh.

[dhok]

As for teeth, I'm not sure-- isn't sugar the main culprit for cavities?

Tea is a culprit as well. There are reasons why Japanese people have so badly cared teeth.

Umm, no. Tea by itself is actually helps to clean your teeth. It's the sugar in black tea that makes it bad for your teeth. The Japanese custom of painting one's teeth black was fashionable for women because showing your teeth was considered to be rude or embaressing. That is why Japanese people often cover their mouths when they laugh.

Really? Because in England, fashionable women would also paint their teeth black, but for a different reason: it was a sign of affluence. If your teeth were black, you were rich enough to buy lots of sugar.

[Mashmakhan]

Really? Because in England, fashionable women would also paint their teeth black, but for a different reason: it was a sign of affluence. If your teeth were black, you were rich enough to buy lots of sugar.

That is interesting. Thanks for bringing it up. Maybe the Japanese custom originated from the British one, then? Britain did maintain contact with Japan for a while, I think after the Meiji Restoration but I am not sure. At what time were women in England doing this?

[dhok]

Really? Because in England, fashionable women would also paint their teeth black, but for a different reason: it was a sign of affluence. If your teeth were black, you were rich enough to buy lots of sugar.

That is interesting. Thanks for bringing it up. Maybe the Japanese custom originated from the British one, then? Britain did maintain contact with Japan for a while, I think after the Meiji Restoration but I am not sure. At what time were women in England doing this?

18th century, I think.

[Salmoneus]

Any citations for that? I know that wikipedia claims that in the sixteenth century, english women painted their teeth green and purple, but I see nothing anywhere about black, or any suger connexion. And since that wikipedia page says "17th century Elizabethan England", I'm not completely sold even on that. [What, you mean they did it in 1601, 1602 AND 1603???]

[hwhatting]

I'm not completely sold even on that. [What, you mean they did it in 1601, 1602 AND 1603???]

Perhaps it was a very short-lived fashion?

[brandrinn]

I'm not completely sold even on that. [What, you mean they did it in 1601, 1602 AND 1603???]

Perhaps it was a very short-lived fashion?

And one that helpfully coincided with arbitrary divisions of history.

BTW, did you know that ancient Egyptians painted their teeth black because black, the color or rich soil, was considered a lucky color? Also, Prussian women would paint their teeth black to fool government collectors after the imposition of the "tooth tax."