SFWhat do you call a genre that features
the answer is always SF
Not science fiction, SF. SF means "non-mainstream shit that has aliens or robots or unicorns or is generally a bit peculiar".Mashmakhan wrote:Why should it have to be put in the same genre when it doesn't have humans or advanced technology of any kind? It is practically the same as the numerous fictional stories set on Earth, it just takes place on another planet. I feel like I am letting people down when I call my conworld science fiction because they seem to expect a lot more speculation in terms of the technology. It almost makes the world seem more like fantasy, which - quite frankly - I find a little insulting because I put a lot of thought into making it seem realistic. I end up telling them things like "no...it doesn't have this" or "no...you can't do that." Then they ask me what's so exciting about it, so I tell them it is more like a historical drama. To be honest, it pales in comparison to most of the worlds that other science fiction are set in but it fits perfectly with the real life events of people like Alexander the Great, William Wallace, Erik the Red, Marco Polo, etc. Even stories that were in all other respects fictional, like Don Quixote and Dances With Wolves, seem to be better suited to this genre. Yet it is science fiction?
You can't have it both ways.Torco wrote:self-evidently most people.zompist wrote:"Mainstream"? Who reads mainstream lit?
So what? It is not having it both ways unless you are wed to the idea that mainstream books *must* have the highest readership. I am not -- the quantity that is greater is that there are more real people than SF people. SF people happen to buy more SF books than real people buy real books, but so what.zompist wrote:If you want to define "mainstream" as "non-genre", then no, most people do not read mainstream; classic literary fiction is a smaller market than sf/fantasy.
That's *porn*.zompist wrote:Basically, if you want to roll around in the ghettoness of sf/fantasy, romance can out-ghetto you any day. Any of you boys ever read a single romance novel?
How are you calculating the size of the market? Based on sales or reach?zompist wrote:You can't have it both ways.Torco wrote:self-evidently most people.zompist wrote:"Mainstream"? Who reads mainstream lit?
If you want to define "mainstream" as "what most people read", then genre fiction is mainstream fiction. The most read fiction is romance, covering half of all mass market paperback titles. Genre fiction as a whole is about 88% of the total fiction market.
If you want to define "mainstream" as "non-genre", then no, most people do not read mainstream; classic literary fiction is a smaller market than sf/fantasy.
Basically, if you want to roll around in the ghettoness of sf/fantasy, romance can out-ghetto you any day. Any of you boys ever read a single romance novel?
Which are not part of the fiction market.Åge Kruger wrote:I read somewhere in the depths of the internet/time that most people don't actually read books at all, thus making mainstream literature the back of a cereal packet, a spreadsheets, and whatever words FOX is overlaying on top of a pie chart right now.zompist wrote:Genre fiction as a whole is about 88% of the total fiction market.
So the most popular genre is also the least respectable? This doesn't even make sense.Pthug wrote:That's *porn*.zompist wrote:Basically, if you want to roll around in the ghettoness of sf/fantasy, romance can out-ghetto you any day. Any of you boys ever read a single romance novel?
Well, I don't know about the last one...zompist wrote:Which are not part of the fiction market.Åge Kruger wrote:I read somewhere in the depths of the internet/time that most people don't actually read books at all, thus making mainstream literature the back of a cereal packet, a spreadsheets, and whatever words FOX is overlaying on top of a pie chart right now.zompist wrote:Genre fiction as a whole is about 88% of the total fiction market.
Really the above was the interesting question, the rest was just tosh.I also wrote:How are you calculating the size of the market? Based on sales or reach?
Now you really *are* just being obstructionist. And maybe prudish. What is nonsensical about pornography being the most popular genre of book? Is it nonsensical that pornography is a popular genre of *website*? No, of course not; it makes sense, and the exact same kind of sense as with books.zompist wrote:So the most popular genre is also the least respectable? This doesn't even make sense.
I am not saying that, precisely, it's just that other genres don't really seem to mean much to me compared to the split between SF and everything else. Crime/Mystery, okay that's kind of a separate thing at least according to the bookshops, so I suppose there is a case to be made for a tripartite Real People / Mysterons / SF Dorks split, but do you really want to go down the road of further subdivision? There is a pseudogenre in Britain of "Tragic Life Stories" and holding that to be a division on the level of that between SF and anything else is worthy of a metal fan.zompist wrote:It's just silly to define "mainstream" as "all genres but SF".
What are you doing, sir?zompist wrote:So the most popular genre is also the least respectable? This doesn't even make sense.Pthug wrote:That's *porn*.zompist wrote:Basically, if you want to roll around in the ghettoness of sf/fantasy, romance can out-ghetto you any day. Any of you boys ever read a single romance novel?
It's just silly to define "mainstream" as "all genres but SF".
Publishers and readers certainly do. You don't seem to be able to say anything coherent about romance. I know almost nothing about it myself, but at least I don't confuse it with literary fiction or porn.Pthug wrote:Crime/Mystery, okay that's kind of a separate thing at least according to the bookshops, so I suppose there is a case to be made for a tripartite Real People / Mysterons / SF Dorks split, but do you really want to go down the road of further subdivision?
does Like Water for Chocolate count?zompist wrote: Basically, if you want to roll around in the ghettoness of sf/fantasy, romance can out-ghetto you any day. Any of you boys ever read a single romance novel?
Disagree. The term "genre fiction" is closely analagous to "people who speak with an accent". For the same reason that all humans speak with some accent or other (even if they protest "I don't have an accent"), so all fiction is genre fiction. It has to be.zompist wrote:If you want to define "mainstream" as "what most people read", then genre fiction is mainstream fiction. The most read fiction is romance, covering half of all mass market paperback titles. Genre fiction as a whole is about 88% of the total fiction market.
'Zerrakhi wrote:Disagree. The term "genre fiction" is closely analagous to "people who speak with an accent". For the same reason that all humans speak with some accent or other (even if they protest "I don't have an accent"), so all fiction is genre fiction. It has to be.
I believe you are referring to the "fiction" and "non-fiction" distinction. Science fiction - for which "SF" or "Sci-fi" is an abbreviation of - is a sub-field. Basically, if the plot and/or setting was made up, then it is fiction. Or atleast that is how I draw the line. So yeah, my story is definately fiction. Problem is, what kind? How the heck do I describe it in a way that will let people know what to expect but that won't rely on some lengthy description? Personally I think a new genre needs to be invented...Pthug wrote:Not science fiction, SF. SF means "non-mainstream shit that has aliens or robots or unicorns or is generally a bit peculiar".
I have to protest to this. Whether something takes place in a fictional setting or not does not decide whether it is "mainstream" or that it is generally read by "normal people." It is very much a matter of taste. But I will say this: narratives do seem to be more common in works of fiction than works of non-fiction. Historical dramas tend to be more about conveying a record of non-statistical data (I.e. qualitative information[size]) than about telling a story because, whether you like it or not, it still happened. So it clearly didn't cater to anyone's interests. In considering this, maybe people read fiction for the story-telling aspect and non-fiction for the referential aspect? If I pull out a historical drama on...say, World War II, I am probably trying to find a piece of information to fulfill an inquiry I have, rather than to entertain myself with a story. All in all, maybe these two main genres are equally popular, but for different reasons?*real* people read mainstream books -- bookshops and charity shops, especially, are just *full* of real people books.
and yeah, i include romance, mystery, religious etc. in real people books because if you're going to Otherise something, do it properly.
zompist wrote:classic literary fiction is a smaller market than sf/fantasy.
Mashmakhan wrote:But I will say this: narratives do seem to be more common in works of fiction than works of non-fiction. Historical dramas tend to be more about conveying a record of non-statistical data (I.e. qualitative information[size]) than about telling a story because, whether you like it or not, it still happened. So it clearly didn't cater to anyone's interests. In considering this, maybe people read fiction for the story-telling aspect and non-fiction for the referential aspect? If I pull out a historical drama on...say, World War II, I am probably trying to find a piece of information to fulfill an inquiry I have, rather than to entertain myself with a story.
Harlequin is the main Romance novel publisher in the U.S., or at least main publisher of "dime store romances" which like "dime store mysteries" are very short, formulaic, and popular, as well as inexpensive. Harlequin and Mills & Boon are apparently the same. Silhouette is another big one.Pthug wrote:if i can't say anything coherent about romance to you then then it's probably because you're being uncertain as to what you mean by it. What *I* mean by it is the stuff that is, in Britain, most famously published by the house of Mills & Boon -- I do not know what the main American publishers are; go and ask a girl. Harlequin, maybe?