Vowelless words
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- Sanci
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Vowelless words
Is it possible to have a word with no vowels? I''m not talking about syllabic consonants like nasals functioning as the nucleus - the example I was thinking of was more like using /p'/ as a one syllable preposition. Would this be more likely to be analyzed as a prefix, which would attach to the following word; or perhaps as having a voiceless vowel afterward? Or is it possible to have a vowelless (maybe I mean nucleus-less) syllable.
[quote="TomHChappell"]I don't know if that answers your question; is English a natlang?[/quote]
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- Lebom
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Case closed.xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓
Catch me on YouTube.Pthug wrote:i can imagineViktor77 wrote:I grew up my entire life surrounded by a Special Ed educator.
Ayeah. Along with plenty others.MrKrov wrote:Case closed.xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓
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Sonorants can be syllable nuclei easily.
German reduces final /əl(n)/ and final stop + /əm ən əŋ/ to syllabic consonants: <Deckel> [dɛ.kl̩], <wechseln> [vɛk.sl̩n], <bleiben> [blae.bm̩], <sagen> [zaː.gŋ̩], <können> [kʰœn.n̩] ...
German reduces final /əl(n)/ and final stop + /əm ən əŋ/ to syllabic consonants: <Deckel> [dɛ.kl̩], <wechseln> [vɛk.sl̩n], <bleiben> [blae.bm̩], <sagen> [zaː.gŋ̩], <können> [kʰœn.n̩] ...
giˈtaɹ.plɛɪ̯ɚ‿n dɪs.ˈgaɪz • [b][url=http://sanstitre.nfshost.com/sbk]Der Sprachbaukasten[/url][/b]
[size=84]And! [url=http://bit.ly/9dSyTI]Ayeri Reference Grammar[/url] (upd. 28 Sep 2010)[/size]
[size=84]And! [url=http://bit.ly/9dSyTI]Ayeri Reference Grammar[/url] (upd. 28 Sep 2010)[/size]
Re: Vowelless words
That's not what he's talking about, though.
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:I''m not talking about syllabic consonants like nasals functioning as the nucleus
You're talking about written colloquial French, right? Le is never condensed before a consonant (h muet doesn't count).Viktor77 wrote:But they are prefixed to the following word in speach or have a quick vowel following them.Fanu wrote:Aren't there prepositions like z or v in some slavic languages? I think I've seen some there.
French also has l' before consonants such as l'bazaar, but it is not a pure consonant.
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Re: Vowelless words
Shame on me for not properly reading the OP.Trailsend wrote:That's not what he's talking about, though.Kai_DaiGoji wrote:I''m not talking about syllabic consonants like nasals functioning as the nucleus
giˈtaɹ.plɛɪ̯ɚ‿n dɪs.ˈgaɪz • [b][url=http://sanstitre.nfshost.com/sbk]Der Sprachbaukasten[/url][/b]
[size=84]And! [url=http://bit.ly/9dSyTI]Ayeri Reference Grammar[/url] (upd. 28 Sep 2010)[/size]
[size=84]And! [url=http://bit.ly/9dSyTI]Ayeri Reference Grammar[/url] (upd. 28 Sep 2010)[/size]
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- Sanci
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You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.MrKrov wrote:Case closed.xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓
[quote="TomHChappell"]I don't know if that answers your question; is English a natlang?[/quote]
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The UCLA phonetics archive does have a recording of some of the vowelless words from Nuxálk/Bella Coola, but I didn't find the sound quality very good:Kai_DaiGoji wrote:You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.MrKrov wrote:Case closed.xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓
http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/BLC/blc.html
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I can just barely wrap my tongue around that the bunchberry one—I get about 4 syllables with nucleuses pretty much falling on sibilants and laterals. It helps a lot that it's all voiceless; I find it more difficult to weed out vowels of long clusters containing voiced consonants. I can't find a recording of the bunchberry or the animal fat word specifically, but this is very cool.Kai_DaiGoji wrote:You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.
Strč prst skrz krk, meaning "stick a finger through your neck" in Czech.
Smrž pln skvrn zvlhl z mlh "A morel full of spots wetted from fogs". (Here zvlhl has two syllables based on L; note that the preposition z consists of a single consonant. Only prepositions do this in Czech, and they normally link phonetically to the following noun, so do not really behave as vowelless words.) In Russian, there are also prepositions that consist of a single consonant letter, like k "to", v "in", and s "with". However, these forms are actually contractions of ko, vo, and so respectively, and these forms are still used in modern Russian before words with certain consonant clusters for ease of pronunciation.
Berber examples include /tkkststt/ "you took it off" and /tfktstt/ "you gave it". Some words may contain one or two consonants only: /ɡ/ "be", /ks/ "feed on".
Source: Wikipedia.
Smrž pln skvrn zvlhl z mlh "A morel full of spots wetted from fogs". (Here zvlhl has two syllables based on L; note that the preposition z consists of a single consonant. Only prepositions do this in Czech, and they normally link phonetically to the following noun, so do not really behave as vowelless words.) In Russian, there are also prepositions that consist of a single consonant letter, like k "to", v "in", and s "with". However, these forms are actually contractions of ko, vo, and so respectively, and these forms are still used in modern Russian before words with certain consonant clusters for ease of pronunciation.
Berber examples include /tkkststt/ "you took it off" and /tfktstt/ "you gave it". Some words may contain one or two consonants only: /ɡ/ "be", /ks/ "feed on".
Source: Wikipedia.
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Re: Vowelless words
Once again.
Kai_DaiGoji wrote:I''m not talking about syllabic consonants (...) functioning as the nucleus
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I'd analyze it as a prefix unless there's a good reason not to, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
I think Berber has an epenthetic vowel.Jacqui wrote:Berber examples include /tkkststt/ "you took it off" and /tfktstt/ "you gave it". Some words may contain one or two consonants only: /ɡ/ "be", /ks/ "feed on".
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Russian has a total of six vowelless, one-consonant words:
/s/ = "with, off of"
/k/ = "to, towards"
/v/ = "in, into"
/b/ = subjunctive/conditional mood particle (~"would")
/Z/ = emphatic particle
/l_j/ = interrogative particle
They're usually just pronounced slurred into the neighboring words, though.
The last three of these are contracted forms of /b1/, /Ze/, and /l_ji/ respectively that occur as stylistic/positional variants. The first three, however, really are vowelless prepositional clitics.
Even easier way to demonstrate it: As a Russian to say the word "in" or "with". They'll just say the consonant.
/s/ = "with, off of"
/k/ = "to, towards"
/v/ = "in, into"
/b/ = subjunctive/conditional mood particle (~"would")
/Z/ = emphatic particle
/l_j/ = interrogative particle
They're usually just pronounced slurred into the neighboring words, though.
The last three of these are contracted forms of /b1/, /Ze/, and /l_ji/ respectively that occur as stylistic/positional variants. The first three, however, really are vowelless prepositional clitics.
No, they aren't. At least not strictly speaking. Ko, vo, and so are variants of k, v, and s with a filler vowel, not the other way around, even though the ancestral form did have a vowel. The regular development of the Common Slavic prepositions *kъ, *vъ, and *sъ in Russian yields simply /k/, /v/, and /s/, while /ko vo so/ are positional variants caused by things such as stress shifting or the general pattern of reduced vowel loss in Old East Slavic.Jacqui wrote:In Russian, there are also prepositions that consist of a single consonant letter, like k "to", v "in", and s "with". However, these forms are actually contractions of ko, vo, and so respectively, and these forms are still used in modern Russian before words with certain consonant clusters for ease of pronunciation.
Even easier way to demonstrate it: As a Russian to say the word "in" or "with". They'll just say the consonant.
In Russian, for instance, they're best analyzed as clitics, since you can freely stick other words or phrases in between.Nortaneous wrote:I'd analyze it as a prefix unless there's a good reason not to, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
http://www.veche.net/
http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian
http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian
Mecislau covered everything I would have to say about Russian, but here's a Ukrainian example.
The word for "and" is usually і /i/, but if it comes after vowels it is й /j/.
Ukrainian has в /v/ (like in Russian), plus з /z/ which is a cognate of Russian с.
Polish has w /v/and z /z/ but I don't know about others.
I'm not an expert on Ukrainian or Polish so correct me if I'm wrong about these.
The word for "and" is usually і /i/, but if it comes after vowels it is й /j/.
Ukrainian has в /v/ (like in Russian), plus з /z/ which is a cognate of Russian с.
Polish has w /v/and z /z/ but I don't know about others.
I'm not an expert on Ukrainian or Polish so correct me if I'm wrong about these.
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I'd like to hear a recording of the "bunchberry" word too. But, it's definitely possible; a while ago someone here was trying to make a language without vowels, and wanted a recording to make sure it was pronounceable or something. So I made one of a word from that language (the name of it, I think): [Cqstxnh]na'oolkili wrote:I can just barely wrap my tongue around that the bunchberry one—I get about 4 syllables with nucleuses pretty much falling on sibilants and laterals. It helps a lot that it's all voiceless; I find it more difficult to weed out vowels of long clusters containing voiced consonants. I can't find a recording of the bunchberry or the animal fat word specifically, but this is very cool.Kai_DaiGoji wrote:You know, I even remember reading that one on Wikipedia, now that I think about it. I'd still want to hear someone pronounce it - I would definitely stick a few vowels in if I tried.
Είναι όλα Ελληνικά για μένα.Radius Solis wrote:The scientific method! It works, bitches.
That guy should work in sound effects for TV and radio. Unless, as I can't help suspecting, he was actually just spinning a rusty bicycle wheel instead of speaking...AnTeallach wrote:The UCLA phonetics archive does have a recording of some of the vowelless words from Nuxálk/Bella Coola, but I didn't find the sound quality very good:
http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/BLC/blc.html
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