Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[Cedh]

And as always, the other half of my brain wants to rebel, to run off and do something else - the current notion is a Tmasare daughter that would fit right in between Tlingit and Nuxalk - but I'm trying to learn to focus.

Please put this aside for later... I find myself longing to see it immediately, but you learning to focus is worth more

[dunomapuka]

A thought about the "Oceanic" sphere (no idea what to call it) of Sumarušuxi, Siixtaguna, the Kennan, some of the other Isles groups, Lotoka, some of the Doroh, etc: by the end of the 1st millennium this is probably the most technologically/culturally advanced region of the world, due to shared innovations among the various different cultures - a crossroads effect something like the Middle East. The Fáralo are a bit like Rome - they made important contributions to the shared culture here, but by 1000 they're no longer important.

(the invention of the printing press, for example, we tentatively ascribed to Rathedān, but this was really just because we didn't know anything about the rest of the world, and now I'd be more inclined to put in Sumarušuxi. But we need to explore the political and economic conditions a lot more.)


((the "barbarian conquest" of Huyfárah, too, no longer seems to fit: who are the barbarians? The Isthmus peoples next door - the Doroh - are almost certainly literate and urbanized. So this chapter of history probably looks different than what we have been picturing.))

[the duke of nuke]

((the "barbarian conquest" of Huyfárah, too, no longer seems to fit: who are the barbarians? The Isthmus peoples next door - the Doroh - are almost certainly literate and urbanized. So this chapter of history probably looks different than what we have been picturing.))

In my thread (untouched since last year! Has it really been that long?) I compared the Affanons to the early-mediaeval Irish, but they're clearly more advanced than that.
One other thing I mentioned - which may be closer to the actual situation - was the Norman conquest of England. We have a civilised and literate people, albeit with barbarian roots, in an advanced but politically fragmented area. They see a political crisis in a well-established neighbouring state, are perhaps spurred on by feelings of broken promises, and choose to invade, toppling the government and installing themselves as the ruling class. Of course, there are differences; Huyfárah is larger and older than C11 England, but in worse economic shape by the time of the invasion, and has much larger cities (I expect Ussor to have a population of at least 250k at its height, maybe as much as 400k, although rather less by the time of the invasion).

Thoughts?

Oh, and also, what writing systems are in use in that region? The Fáralo alphabet? The Siixtaguna script? Something else I don't know about?

[dunomapuka]

One other thing I mentioned - which may be closer to the actual situation - was the Norman conquest of England. We have a civilised and literate people, albeit with barbarian roots, in an advanced but politically fragmented area. They see a political crisis in a well-established neighbouring state, are perhaps spurred on by feelings of broken promises, and choose to invade, toppling the government and installing themselves as the ruling class. Of course, there are differences; Huyfárah is larger and older than C11 England, but in worse economic shape by the time of the invasion, and has much larger cities (I expect Ussor to have a population of at least 250k at its height, maybe as much as 400k, although rather less by the time of the invasion).

One reason would be that the Fáralo coast has become overrun with pirates of various nationalities. One particular Doroh faction is consolidating power, and they are trying to take control of local trade routes. So they invade the Oltu Valley under the guise of being an anti-pirate force. (They would invade by sea.)

Oh, and also, what writing systems are in use in that region? The Fáralo alphabet? The Siixtaguna script? Something else I don't know about?

Probably both of those. The Fáralo script is derived from the Faraghin which is derived from the Ndak, and the Takuña script is probably ultimately an adaptation of one of these also, maybe via the Thokyunam, or the early Fáralo themselves. (I think this was not the original plan, but I don't really like the Takuña inventing writing independently. Too many separate inventions of writing!)

[Basilius]

(For example, I'm fancying some common substrate influence affecting pre-Thokyunèhòta and pre-Mûtsipsa'; this may have happened somewhere on Sumarušuxi.)

... a common substrate in pre-Thokyunèhòta and pre-Máotatšàlì, of course - what was I thinking about? sorry for the confusion...

Also,

I had a good chat with cedh on IRC today... among other things, we talked about the map of northern Peilaš, and he had an idea for an alternative tectonic scenario. So there may be a new map proposal in the works. In any case, we agreed that our next major goal is a truly finalized physical map.

For me the whole business of cartography (with tectonics, climates and whatnot) is absolutely arcane and absolutely fascinating; could you please post (excerpts from) the logs of your conversation somewhere on Akana Forum, if Cedh doesn't object?

In my thread (untouched since last year! Has it really been that long?) I compared the Affanons to the early-mediaeval Irish, but they're clearly more advanced than that.
One other thing I mentioned - which may be closer to the actual situation - was the Norman conquest of England.

Hmmmm... I don't know. I definitely associate the Affanons with Antiquity more than with Middle Ages, if we take the European timeline as the basis of comparison. But I'm not sure I can point to any differentiating features...

Oh, and also, what writing systems are in use in that region? The Fáralo alphabet? The Siixtaguna script? Something else I don't know about?

The Affanons certainly knew some writing, and certainly borrowed it from some neighbors in their new homeland.

Were the Doroh already literate by -1000 YP? This would be the most natural source.

* * * * *

Also, I tried to understand what is and what isn't known about the whole Sumarušuxi-Lotoka-Affalinnei-Doroh sphere, and it seems that I wrote an overview... I propose that we discuss it there.

[Bedelato]

Ye Olde Collection of Linkes & Infoe

Ye olde funnie stuffe.

[Cedh]

Oh, and also, what writing systems are in use in that region? The Fáralo alphabet? The Siixtaguna script? Something else I don't know about?

The Affanons certainly knew some writing, and certainly borrowed it from some neighbors in their new homeland.

Were the Doroh already literate by -1000 YP? This would be the most natural source.

Writing was first introduced to the Isthmus region by the Ndak around -1800, so the Doroh (or at least their nobles and priests) might have acquired writing from them. I'm not sure how much exposure they would have had to it though; after all, even in Kasca only a handful of specialists were able to read at that time. Alternatively, the Doroh might have acquired writing from the Faraghin or Feråjin around -1400, just before they started their eastward migration. In this case, Doroh writing would be based on an early form of the Fáralo alphabet, rather than being an independent adaptation of the Ndak logosyllabary. Finally, in a third scenario writing might not reach the SLAD sphere in the Ndak period, being brought there only by the Fáralo expedition to Siixtaguna c. -400 YP. Opinions?

[dunomapuka]

In this case, Doroh writing would be based on an early form of the Fáralo alphabet, rather than being an independent adaptation of the Ndak logosyllabary.

I vote for this. Writing would then be spread to the "Eastern" civilizations via this route, maybe competing with a second lineage, adapted by the Thokyunam from the early Fáralo.

In any case I think the Takuña/Mûtsipsa sphere needs to have writing well established by the time they start doing philosophy (i.e. Ttsahû, around -500).

[Corumayas]

I think I'd prefer the Doroh to acquire writing as late as possible; though maybe it's not really plausible to continue thinking of them as unlettered barbarians in the classical period, I don't know. (A while ago cedh and I were thinking of analogies from RL history for their relationship to the Affanonic civilization; classical Greece and Macedonia struck us as fairly apt. In which case Huyfárah kind of takes on the role of the Persian empire...)

Anyway, another possible source for writing is the Ndak/early Komejech in Dagæm. IIRC Legion wanted their writing system to be an abugida, which is also how Rory described the Takuña's system. The Lotoka stopped in Dagæm on their way across the bay, so they could have picked up writing there (and maybe even transmitted it directly to the Takuña).

[Legion]

I did want that, but I remember there being many objections to it.

[Corumayas]

I remember that too; but if you still want an abugida, I think we could probably figure out a way to make it work.

For example, I'm now wondering if the EI family's pervasive ablaut patterns might make it sensible for Ngauro to develop consonantal signs like Egyptian, rather than (or maybe in addition to?) syllabic ones like Sumerian et al. If so, the path to alphabets and abugidas seems much clearer...

[Legion]

That's a good idea. I was also thinking, we could posit than in Akana, it just so happened that writing was invented independently more times than on Earth.

[dunomapuka]

This scenario assumes the 1st Empire is literate, which seems reasonable enough. If it's not, then maybe it was the Lukpanab or the Westerners who, somewhat later, introduced writing to the Xšali sphere.

They definitely were. Xšali writing dates at least to the Xšali invasion (presently listed at -2100, though I think it may need to be moved earlier). I did once have a substantial timeline worked out, but 1. it's gone now and 2. I found later that it was muchly in need of revision anyway, as the history of central Xšalad needs to go at least a millennium further back than is presently shown on the chart.

Hey, remember this discussion (from the Relay II thread)? We were driving ourselves crazy trying to figure out where Lukpanic writing came from.

Well, I have the answer: It didn't. The Lukpanab did not have writing. They were illiterate. I looked back to Radius' original suggestion, and the original plan was to invent a language family to provide nautical/fishing and urban/government-y vocabulary to the Coastal Westerners. It didn't say anything about writing, I just got confused and interpolated that myself.

Proto-Lukpanic has words for "read," "write," "glyph," etc. But these will refer to a tally system for record-keeping, with some very limited use of accompanied ideographs, and not a full writing system - the system is capable of saying things like "We shipped in 100 ceramic urns from Isi," (written 100 - URN - ISI) and not much more.

[Legion]

Oh by the way, it appears that Dewrad's domain has expired and that the material that was there has expired (this includes notably the grammars of Adata and Proto-Western). If someone has backups of those (or if Dewrad is around here) it would be nice to put them on the wiki.

[the duke of nuke]

Woltu Falla has, at long last, a full Tsinakan text. Cedh's spiffy new Namɨdu dialect kicked me into doing it... I can't have those minority languages outshining Ussor! On the subject, are there any plans for Fallo na Mendia?

Also, I'd like to repeat the (open) question of metallurgy in Tuysáfa, from here on the forum.

And dunomapuka - I'll make some changes to the Culture of Ishe page to reflect that the Lukpanab have no writing.

[Cedh]

Woltu Falla has, at long last, a full Tsinakan text. Cedh's spiffy new Namɨdu dialect kicked me into doing it... I can't have those minority languages outshining Ussor! On the subject, are there any plans for Fallo na Mendia?

No, not yet. If you want to have a go, just do so - Mendia is quite close to the Oltu anyway (probably less than a two-day walk from Ussor), so it's more or less your territory. Unless Dunomapuka claims it, of course...

The Woltu Falla text looks good. It seems quite conservative to me (just an impression, I haven't yet had the time to compare it to Fáralo, Namɨdu and Cəssın), but the grammar seems solid. Could use some more innovative vocab maybe. Hint: I'm waiting for the lexicon so i can borrow words into Cəssın...

[dunomapuka]

Woltu Falla has, at long last, a full Tsinakan text. Cedh's spiffy new Namɨdu dialect kicked me into doing it... I can't have those minority languages outshining Ussor! On the subject, are there any plans for Fallo na Mendia?

No, not yet. If you want to have a go, just do so - Mendia is quite close to the Oltu anyway (probably less than a two-day walk from Ussor), so it's more or less your territory. Unless Dunomapuka claims it, of course...

Naw, I lay no claims there. I pictured the main Central-Southern isoglosses as running right in between Ussor and Mæmedéi, so it's probably generally "Southern" with a few "Central" features.

The Dagæm Islands are closer to the Southern zone, but I was thinking it would be interesting if they spoke a Central dialect, due to settlement patterns. But I don't expect anyone to be doing anything with Dagæm for the time being.

My current project: wikifying, and slightly revising, the grammar of Thokyunèhòta. I will also do a historical/culture sketch like what Duke did for Zeluzh. I am totally open to suggestions about it though.

[Legion]

The Dagæm Islands are closer to the Southern zone, but I was thinking it would be interesting if they spoke a Central dialect, due to settlement patterns. But I don't expect anyone to be doing anything with Dagæm for the time being.

On Dagæm they speak Komejech, a fully distinct Edastean language I really should hurry to finish now (high on priority list with Naxuutayi).

[the duke of nuke]

Woltu Falla has, at long last, a full Tsinakan text. Cedh's spiffy new Namɨdu dialect kicked me into doing it... I can't have those minority languages outshining Ussor! On the subject, are there any plans for Fallo na Mendia?

No, not yet. If you want to have a go, just do so - Mendia is quite close to the Oltu anyway (probably less than a two-day walk from Ussor), so it's more or less your territory. Unless Dunomapuka claims it, of course...

The Woltu Falla text looks good. It seems quite conservative to me (just an impression, I haven't yet had the time to compare it to Fáralo, Namɨdu and Cəssın), but the grammar seems solid. Could use some more innovative vocab maybe. Hint: I'm waiting for the lexicon so i can borrow words into Cəssın...

It was meant to be fairly conservative - in a way, it's the Italian to Fáralo's Latin. Syntactically it's more innovative than Namɨdu, but the sound changes don't affect it so much, and it's not as divergent as Cəssın by a long stretch.

As for the lexicon: yes, that's my next big project I've SC-ified the Fáralo lexicon, and I'm adding in loans from a few other languages (Takuña especially, and also Namɨdu, Cəssın, and Æðadĕ). There are a small number of new derivations in the WF Tsinakan text, but only one loan - can you spot it?

Thanks for the corrections, by the way!

Naw, I lay no claims there. I pictured the main Central-Southern isoglosses as running right in between Ussor and Mæmedéi, so it's probably generally "Southern" with a few "Central" features.

The Dagæm Islands are closer to the Southern zone, but I was thinking it would be interesting if they spoke a Central dialect, due to settlement patterns. But I don't expect anyone to be doing anything with Dagæm for the time being.

My current project: wikifying, and slightly revising, the grammar of Thokyunèhòta. I will also do a historical/culture sketch like what Duke did for Zeluzh. I am totally open to suggestions about it though.

On Dagæm they speak Komejech, a fully distinct Edastean language I really should hurry to finish now (high on priority list with Naxuutayi).

Ooh, nice! I'll look forward to these.

Fallo na Mendia is lower on my list of priorities (I want to get a proper revision of Zele done before that, and the WF lexicon before that). But I may work out the SCs to get some vocabulary for it...

[Cedh]

As for the lexicon: yes, that's my next big project I've SC-ified the Fáralo lexicon, and I'm adding in loans from a few other languages (Takuña especially, and also Namɨdu, Cəssın, and Æðadĕ). There are a small number of new derivations in the WF Tsinakan text, but only one loan - can you spot it?

Sure I can. līpū 'to attack', from Takuña li:ùpú:

[the duke of nuke]

As for the lexicon: yes, that's my next big project I've SC-ified the Fáralo lexicon, and I'm adding in loans from a few other languages (Takuña especially, and also Namɨdu, Cəssın, and Æðadĕ). There are a small number of new derivations in the WF Tsinakan text, but only one loan - can you spot it?

Sure I can. līpū 'to attack', from Takuña li:ùpú:

Indeed it is!

Well, the lexicon is now up on the wiki! It's not completely finished, but it should be good enough for most purposes. And it has a lot of words. (I've got a lot done, and quickly, but at the exponse of putting thought into semantic drift, coinages, etc. etc. On the other hand it has a decent number of loans.)

Now... back to that Zele grammar - or maybe more on WF itself...

[roninbodhisattva]

Have there been any creoles/pidgins/other kind of contact varieties down for Akana?

[the duke of nuke]

There's bound to be a few in areas of close language contact (all over the Aiwa, probably...)
I know that an Adata-Miwan creole was a major influence in the history of Pencek, and I think there was another similar situation for Meshmo Koyon. Kasca and Lasomo, with so many groups fighting for control, are probably likely areas for creoles to form as well.

[roninbodhisattva]

There's bound to be a few in areas of close language contact (all over the Aiwa, probably...)
I know that an Adata-Miwan creole was a major influence in the history of Pencek, and I think there was another similar situation for Meshmo Koyon. Kasca and Lasomo, with so many groups fighting for control, are probably likely areas for creoles to form as well.

Hmm, interesting. I might actually pursue doing some kind of creole. Maybe not in those areas, but I could figure out another story to create one.

[Radius Solis]

Well, the lexicon is now up on the wiki! It's not completely finished, but it should be good enough for most purposes. And it has a lot of words.

It sure does, landing in #2 place for Akana! These are our present four-digit dictionaries:
Naidda - 1350
Woltu Falla - 1080
Fáralo - 1022
Pencek - 1000

(It's possible I've missed one somewhere.)