Sound Change Quickie Thread
Sound Change Quickie Thread
Lots of people have diachronics questions, so let's put all the sound change quickies into one thread.
- Nortaneous
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
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- roninbodhisattva
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
From what kind of initial inventory?Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Palatalization.Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
鱼 发文 的 西可热特 么色只!
- Nortaneous
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Something along the lines of /pʰ p tʰ t kʰ k m n ŋ s h l r j w/. I don't really know what I'm going to do with that protolang. Might have a series of uvulars in there also, and I'll probably end up dropping the aspirated series and deriving them from geminates.roninbodhisattva wrote:From what kind of initial inventory?Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
I was thinking of using something like:
l r j > tɬ tʂ cç
ll rr jj > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
and either starting with /ts/ or getting it from some variation of /s/, but I'm not sure how realistic any of that is.
How? Seems to me that that only takes care of the postalveolars.MadBrain wrote:Palatalization.Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
- roninbodhisattva
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yeah, this second part make sense to me along the lines of something like rr > tr > tʂ or tʂʰ. I would think the first one would be conditioned? Unless you're going to fill in those open sonorants with some other change, you'd have a weird inventory.Nortaneous wrote:I was thinking of using something like:
l r j > tɬ tʂ cç
ll rr jj > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I have a rule in Kohanese that between vowels, consonants lenite (such as t>þ) but that they do not do so after a stressed vowel. Plausible?
- roninbodhisattva
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yes.dhokarena56 wrote:I have a rule in Kohanese that between vowels, consonants lenite (such as t>þ) but that they do not do so after a stressed vowel. Plausible?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
That's pretty much the exact condition for Verner's Law, except initial consonants resisted Verner's Law, so it's definitely plausible.
- Nortaneous
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Geminated consonants would already all be fortis.roninbodhisattva wrote:Yeah, this second part make sense to me along the lines of something like rr > tr > tʂ or tʂʰ. I would think the first one would be conditioned? Unless you're going to fill in those open sonorants with some other change, you'd have a weird inventory.Nortaneous wrote:I was thinking of using something like:
l r j > tɬ tʂ cç
ll rr jj > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
The first one would probably only occur in codas, and I might have something similar happen with nasals: m n ŋ > bm dn gŋ > b d g / _%. (Is that the symbol for a syllable boundary?)
I'd probably also roll up some other clusters into that. I'm thinking maybe something like: (P = plosive)
Pl Pr Pj > tɬ tʂ cç
P:l P:r P:j > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
- roninbodhisattva
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yeah, now I see this as perfectly reasonable and fine!Nortaneous wrote:Geminated consonants would already all be fortis.roninbodhisattva wrote:Yeah, this second part make sense to me along the lines of something like rr > tr > tʂ or tʂʰ. I would think the first one would be conditioned? Unless you're going to fill in those open sonorants with some other change, you'd have a weird inventory.Nortaneous wrote:I was thinking of using something like:
l r j > tɬ tʂ cç
ll rr jj > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
The first one would probably only occur in codas, and I might have something similar happen with nasals: m n ŋ > bm dn gŋ > b d g / _%. (Is that the symbol for a syllable boundary?)
I'd probably also roll up some other clusters into that. I'm thinking maybe something like: (P = plosive)
Pl Pr Pj > tɬ tʂ cç
P:l P:r P:j > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I have a language that doesn't allow /w j/ in codas; if they end up there, they become vowels and diphthongize the preceding vowel, so /aj/ becomes /a͡i/. However, diphthongs only form when the second vowel is higher, and so I'm not sure what to do with /iw/ and /uy/. Are /ju/ and /wi/, respectively, plausible developments?
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–Herm Albright
Even better than a proto-conlang, it's the *kondn̥ǵʰwéh₂s
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Definitely. Middle English /ew/, /iw/ > Modern English /ju/, for example.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Would it be reasonable to change a vowel pharyngealization contrast into tone?
- roninbodhisattva
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yes, definitely.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
/t<C>/ clusters. /ts tl tr tj/ maybe to /t^s t^K t^s` t^S/. /ths thl thr thj/ to /t^sh t^Kh t^s`h t^Sh/. No idea if this is plausible, but I have considered it for a descendant of Chambren. Using canSAMPA.Nortaneous wrote:Something along the lines of /pʰ p tʰ t kʰ k m n ŋ s h l r j w/. I don't really know what I'm going to do with that protolang. Might have a series of uvulars in there also, and I'll probably end up dropping the aspirated series and deriving them from geminates.roninbodhisattva wrote:From what kind of initial inventory?Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
I was thinking of using something like:
l r j > tɬ tʂ cç
ll rr jj > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
and either starting with /ts/ or getting it from some variation of /s/, but I'm not sure how realistic any of that is.
How? Seems to me that that only takes care of the postalveolars.MadBrain wrote:Palatalization.Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Oh for heaven's sake. I was going to say this, basically, but do you really have to ruin it by making up a transcription system that's pointless and nobody else uses?Canepari wrote:/t<C>/ clusters. /ts tl tr tj/ maybe to /t^s t^K t^s` t^S/. /ths thl thr thj/ to /t^sh t^Kh t^s`h t^Sh/. No idea if this is plausible, but I have considered it for a descendant of Chambren. Using canSAMPA.Nortaneous wrote:Something along the lines of /pʰ p tʰ t kʰ k m n ŋ s h l r j w/. I don't really know what I'm going to do with that protolang. Might have a series of uvulars in there also, and I'll probably end up dropping the aspirated series and deriving them from geminates.roninbodhisattva wrote:From what kind of initial inventory?Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
I was thinking of using something like:
l r j > tɬ tʂ cç
ll rr jj > tɬʰ tʂʰ cçʰ
and either starting with /ts/ or getting it from some variation of /s/, but I'm not sure how realistic any of that is.
How? Seems to me that that only takes care of the postalveolars.MadBrain wrote:Palatalization.Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
![Mad :x](./images/smilies/icon_mad.gif)
Even then I think you're using the wrong brackets.
- Nortaneous
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Sounds realistic enough to me. Also, can* is for phonetic detail; X-SAMPA and IPA work well enough on the phonemic level. Don't hammer in the screw.Canepari wrote:/t<C>/ clusters. /ts tl tr tj/ maybe to /t^s t^K t^s` t^S/. /ths thl thr thj/ to /t^sh t^Kh t^s`h t^Sh/. No idea if this is plausible, but I have considered it for a descendant of Chambren. Using canSAMPA.
(Although, having said that, canSAMPA does have a few features that would be useful for writing the phonemic level; ^ is definitely something that I wish X-SAMPA had, and it could easily be extended to, say, /t^s^h/ for IPA /t͡sʰ/, so as not to limit the amount of diacritics available to write additional phonetic segments contained in the same phonemic segment. And yeah, that can be done with X-SAMPA <)> or CXS/Z-SAMPA/whichever one I'm thinking of <+>, but those are ugly and rather unintuitive, and the X-SAMPA tiebar doesn't handle strings of more than two characters well. <ts)h)>?)
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- WeepingElf
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I don't know whether it is the best, but in Brishkan (an Albic language under development) I have these (and some other) changes:Nortaneous wrote:What's the best way to derive a set of affricates along the lines of /tsʰ ts tɬʰ tɬ tʂʰ tʂ tʃʰ tʃ/?
tʰs > tsʰ
ks > tʂ
kʰs > tʂʰ
gz > dʐ
tj > tʃ
tʰj > tʃʰ
dj > dʒ
kl > tɬ
kʰl > tɬʰ
gl > dl
tl > tɬ
tʰl > tɬʰ
tʰr > tr̥ʰ
tr > tr̥
kʰr > tr̥ʰ
kr > tr̥
gr > dr
All the affricates you want, plus some rhotic ones.
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- ná'oolkiłí
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How realistic is */r ʀ/
/d g/? What about */ð/
/ɣ/?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
This happened in Irish. They don't use the spelling <dh> to be perverse. Well, not only to be perverse.What about */ð//ɣ/?
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)
- WeepingElf
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
/ð/ > /ɣ/ happened in all three Goidelic languages. /r/ > /d/ makes sense, especially if the rhotic is flapped (a flap is basically a very brief stop), and /ʀ/ > /g/ is much the same farther back in the mouth, so I see no problem with that either. I have seen weirder changes.ná'oolkiłí wrote:How realistic is */r ʀ//d g/? What about */ð/
/ɣ/?
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
That's why I will use it from now on, to preach the Gospel according to Saint Lucian...Nortaneous wrote:Sounds realistic enough to me. Also, can* is for phonetic detail; X-SAMPA and IPA work well enough on the phonemic level. Don't hammer in the screw.Canepari wrote:/t<C>/ clusters. /ts tl tr tj/ maybe to /t^s t^K t^s` t^S/. /ths thl thr thj/ to /t^sh t^Kh t^s`h t^Sh/. No idea if this is plausible, but I have considered it for a descendant of Chambren. Using canSAMPA.
(Although, having said that, canSAMPA does have a few features that would be useful for writing the phonemic level; ^ is definitely something that I wish X-SAMPA had, and it could easily be extended to, say, /t^s^h/ for IPA /t͡sʰ/, so as not to limit the amount of diacritics available to write additional phonetic segments contained in the same phonemic segment. And yeah, that can be done with X-SAMPA <)> or CXS/Z-SAMPA/whichever one I'm thinking of <+>, but those are ugly and rather unintuitive, and the X-SAMPA tiebar doesn't handle strings of more than two characters well. <ts)h)>?)
The Conlanger Formerly Known As Aiďos
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I think r >: d is attested in Malayo-Polynesian (there's a large area where *d and *r merge, sometimes to /r/, sometimes to /d/).ná'oolkiłí wrote:How realistic is */r ʀ//d g/?
For Nort's affricate issue, consider deriving some of the affricates secondarily from the others. Maybe first *t
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![arrow :>](./images/smilies/arrow.gif)
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(It is of course entirely acceptable to also start with a bunch of affricates in the protolang and have them merge into something or the other elsewhere.)
Not actually new.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Is it at all plausible to have a series of palatals but no velars (except allophonically)? If so, how might it come about? Fronting of velars?
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
–Herm Albright
Even better than a proto-conlang, it's the *kondn̥ǵʰwéh₂s
–Herm Albright
Even better than a proto-conlang, it's the *kondn̥ǵʰwéh₂s