Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
User avatar
Zapcon
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Wish Greece, the home land

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Zapcon »

... is the commonest...
I believe that that should be "is the most common"
At least, that is how I was raised to think about it.
Legion wrote:[triangular slavery] > [african polyrythms] + [western folk music] (+ (sometimes) [western art music]) = [biggest explosion in diversity since the Cambrian]

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by finlay »

I think commonest is right...

User avatar
Delthayre
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 8:47 am

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Delthayre »

finlay wrote:I think commonest is right...
Seconded, although I'm biased toward synthetic forms. I think, however, that, "most common," is favored by some prescriptivists and amongst younger speakers of General American, for whom the synthetic superlative seems largely moribund.
"Great men are almost always bad men."
~Lord John Dalberg Acton

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by finlay »

Considering that geoff and i are from the same city, as well... :P

User avatar
Zapcon
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:29 pm
Location: Wish Greece, the home land

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Zapcon »

I have asked many people in my classes at school, and everyone seems to think "most common" is better than "commonest"
Many people don't think that "commonest" is even a word. Where I am from, Virginia, USA, to form the superlative, "-est" is added to the end of the word, unless the word is more than one syllable, then "most" is added in front. Although, there are exceptions when it ends in a vowel such as "happiest"
Legion wrote:[triangular slavery] > [african polyrythms] + [western folk music] (+ (sometimes) [western art music]) = [biggest explosion in diversity since the Cambrian]

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by finlay »

interesting. I've never heard of this one before. The question of when to use "-est" and when to use "most" is a difficult one anyway, so I imagine you've generalised "most" further than I have. I also imagine it's confined to a small number of words, because I can't imagine this comes up that often. Now I'm wondering if there's truth in what Delthayre says and if it's a feature of modern US vs UK English.

Magb
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:42 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Magb »

Curiouser and curiouser...

User avatar
makvas
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:13 pm
Location: The Southland

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by makvas »

My personal problem with "commonest" is that the comparative "commoner" is never anything but a noun.

User avatar
Jipí
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:48 pm
Location: Litareng, Keynami
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Jipí »

I learned in school that -est, -er are most common with monosyllabic adjectives. If the word gets longer than two syllables by adding comparison suffixes, you use the analytic form.

Rory
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:37 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Rory »

Guitarplayer wrote:I learned in school that -est, -er are most common with monosyllabic adjectives. If the word gets longer than two syllables by adding comparison suffixes, you use the analytic form.
Generally speaking, that's true, but there are exceptions like "happier". Is it something to do with Germanic roots?
The man of science is perceiving and endowed with vision whereas he who is ignorant and neglectful of this development is blind. The investigating mind is attentive, alive; the mind callous and indifferent is deaf and dead. - 'Abdu'l-Bahá

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by finlay »

yeah i think so

User avatar
Xonen
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:05 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Xonen »

Rory wrote:
Guitarplayer wrote:I learned in school that -est, -er are most common with monosyllabic adjectives. If the word gets longer than two syllables by adding comparison suffixes, you use the analytic form.
Generally speaking, that's true, but there are exceptions like "happier". Is it something to do with Germanic roots?
It might also be that bisyllabic adjectives ending in -y tend to use the synthetic forms; I seem to recall something like that given as a rule in school. Then again, our English teachers also taught us that you can never use if and would in the same clause, that the -'s possessive clitic (or "es-genitive" as it was called) is only used with nouns referring to people, and that Jesus is the True Hero of Christmas. :roll: So it might be that this, too, is worth taking with a few grains of salt.
[quote="Funkypudding"]Read Tuomas' sig.[/quote]

User avatar
AnTeallach
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:51 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by AnTeallach »

I'm sure I remember being told that one-syllable adjectives tended to use the "-er" and "-est" forms, three-syllable and longer adjectives tended to use "more" and "most", and that two-syllable adjectives could go either way. This fits my intuition in most cases, though there are exceptions: "curiouser and curiouser" ("curious" is three syllables IMD; NB "curiousest" sounds completely wrong), "couldn't be more wrong".

In the particular case under discussion, both "commoner" and "commonest" feel entirely natural.

(UK English)

User avatar
alice
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Three of them

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by alice »

Right! I've added some vertical vowel systems and explained the classification system. Definitely no more changes now unless they're mistakes or typos.
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.

jmcd
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1034
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Location: Réunion
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by jmcd »

cedh audmanh wrote:
jmcd wrote:Also I would say this is more like Scottish English:

Code: Select all

i     ʉ
   ɪ
  e   ə   o
   ɛ    ʌ ɔ
      a
Which is basically S9 with slightly fronted /ɨ u/ and an additional open-mid central vowel.
Which is still a bigger difference than that between , say T6 and T7C. And it's different what bricka put in already.

User avatar
Xonen
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:05 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Xonen »

Nancy Blackett wrote:Definitely no more changes now unless they're mistakes or typos.
Well, you're still referring to "Lappish" which, as has been pointed out, isn't a language, but rather (an outdated and at present somewhat politically incorrect name for) a whole group of languages, which, incidentally, feature a whole bunch of different vowel systems. The T6 system is apparently found in Kildin Sami.

Also, Wikipedia lists ten vowels for Somali; what's your source for the seven-vowel system?

Other than that, looks pretty neat. :) Well, I personally don't really see the need for classifying "cubic" vowel systems separately, especially since you only have examples for C8 and none for C9 or C10 (and your vowel chart for Turkish looks like it was skewed a bit to make it a better example of, uh, cubicity), but that might be just a matter of taste.
[quote="Funkypudding"]Read Tuomas' sig.[/quote]

User avatar
alice
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Three of them

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by alice »

Xonen wrote:
Nancy Blackett wrote:Definitely no more changes now unless they're mistakes or typos.
Well, you're still referring to "Lappish" which, as has been pointed out, isn't a language, but rather (an outdated and at present somewhat politically incorrect name for) a whole group of languages, which, incidentally, feature a whole bunch of different vowel systems. The T6 system is apparently found in Kildin Sami.
Oops - I forgot about that.
Xonen wrote:Also, Wikipedia lists ten vowels for Somali; what's your source for the seven-vowel system?
I don't remember. I've removed it now anyway.
Xonen wrote:Other than that, looks pretty neat. :) Well, I personally don't really see the need for classifying "cubic" vowel systems separately, especially since you only have examples for C8 and none for C9 or C10 (and your vowel chart for Turkish looks like it was skewed a bit to make it a better example of, uh, cubicity), but that might be just a matter of taste.
When you can show me an example of a cube with nine vertices, I'll consider a C9 system :-) One of my conlangs used to have C12, but I don't know if it's worth including.
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.

jmcd
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1034
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Location: Réunion
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by jmcd »

So what's your source for the Scottish English one?

User avatar
alice
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Three of them

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by alice »

jmcd wrote:So what's your source for the Scottish English one?
I think it came from Wells's Accents of English; I'll have to check.
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.

User avatar
Xonen
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:05 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Xonen »

Nancy Blackett wrote:When you can show me an example of a cube with nine vertices, I'll consider a C9 system :-)
How's that different from having a triangle with five or a square with seventeen :?:
[quote="Funkypudding"]Read Tuomas' sig.[/quote]

User avatar
Thomas Winwood
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:47 am
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by Thomas Winwood »

Ran a quick spellcheck, because I know I eyeballed a typo and then promptly forgot about it because I saw a phoneme or a butterfly or something.
  • "This practice in turn may be overriden for reasons of typological ease" should be overridden.
  • "Where the name of language X appears in connection with vowel system Y, this does not necesarily mean" should be necessarily.
  • "herafter PIE" should be hereafter (this is the one I spotted and then forgot).
  • Beekes's book is Comparative Indo-European Linguistics, not Comparitive.
  • It's Occitan, not Occitian.
  • System T11R may have been used to describe Danish and French, but there are other analyses, not analysises.
  • System S13RC is a simplified version, not vwesion.
BONUS HILARITY: for both "Indo-European" and "Proto-Indo-European" my spellchecker suggests "Pan-European".

jmcd
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1034
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Location: Réunion
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by jmcd »

Nancy Blackett wrote:
jmcd wrote:So what's your source for the Scottish English one?
I think it came from Wells's Accents of English; I'll have to check.
I can see from the Google Books preview that it says "From a diagnostic point of view, the most important characteristic of the Scottish vowel system in its lack, as mentioned above, of a phoneme /u/."

It seems thus that it might agree with Philip Carr's Phonology among others, which describe Scottish English as having a mid high rounded vowel and no other high rounded vowel.

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by finlay »

It does have a phoneme /u/, though; to suggest otherwise would be proposterous. It's just that this isn't , or isn't near cardinal 8, however you want to put it. I mean i suppose you could call it /ʉ/, but this all depends on what point you want to make about it.

User avatar
alice
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Three of them

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by alice »

Nancy Blackett wrote:
jmcd wrote:So what's your source for the Scottish English one?
I think it came from Wells's Accents of English; I'll have to check.
I checked, and it was.

Oh,and I've fixed the typos which XinuX found.
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.

jmcd
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1034
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:46 am
Location: Réunion
Contact:

Re: Yonagu by Nancy - vowel systems

Post by jmcd »

finlay wrote:It does have a phoneme /u/, though; to suggest otherwise would be proposterous. It's just that this isn't , or isn't near cardinal 8, however you want to put it. I mean i suppose you could call it /ʉ/, but this all depends on what point you want to make about it.
The point is it's not and it gives the false impression of that if you use /u/ and not /ʉ/. People will think like that that foot [fʉt] has the same vowel as the one in Schule [ʃulə]. When really it's more likely to be closer to the vowel in Schüler [ˈʃyːlɐ] if anything.

Post Reply