Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Museum for the best conlanging and conworldery threads. Ask mods to move threads here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Viktor77
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Viktor77 »

I'm at that stage in Falgwian where I'm trying to avoid just making new words for English words and putting them in a dictionary. With Falgwian adverbs, they're extremely regular, formed off of adjectives by a simply inflection. When it comes to the adverbs of location, here/there/yonder, and the adverbs of time, now/then, I chose to merge them together into a sort of here/now and yonder/then sort of deal (the details aren't important). Anyway, I've had some trouble incorporating the adverb of time "already" into Falgwian in a manner which is unique. I'd rather not just create a word for "already." So what methods have you used in your conlangs when it comes to incorporating the adverb of time "already?"
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

User avatar
Radius Solis
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Si'ahl
Contact:

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Radius Solis »

You do not need to have an adverb of time with that meaning, or anything closely related. It's one that I usually choose to leave out. Relegating that concept to paraphrasings like "unexpectedly soon" or "quicker than I first thought" is perfectly fine. All languages can express just about all things, but they differ widely in what they provide simple short words for.

User avatar
Viktor77
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Viktor77 »

Radius Solis wrote:You do not need to have an adverb of time with that meaning, or anything closely related. It's one that I usually choose to leave out. Relegating that concept to paraphrasings like "unexpectedly soon" or "quicker than I first thought" is perfectly fine. All languages can express just about all things, but they differ widely in what they provide simple short words for.
Good idea as well!

PS: Can you move this to C&C? It was a lag that put it here.
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

Jashan
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:26 am
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Jashan »

I think using "before" would be a simply and easy gloss, that you probably already have.

"He has already eaten dinner." == "He has eaten dinner before (now)."

The same would work with other tenses, as long as context of the conversation gives the anchor point of reference.
[quote="Xephyr"]Kitties: little happy factories.[/quote]

User avatar
roninbodhisattva
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 568
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:50 pm
Location: California

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by roninbodhisattva »

You could form it using say a perfect tense and another adverb, for example "now". So he eat.perf now could be 'He's already eaten'.

User avatar
Imralu
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1640
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:14 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Imralu »

"Already" basically means something happened or happens surprisingly early. It is not restricted to the past (I've already eaten) but can be used for the present (You're here already!) or the future (It will already be dark by the time I get home). Think about another use for the indication of surprise (eg. the English adverb "even", "even if it rains", "even I had brought a book to read", "I had even brought a book to read") and you could use a phrase like "even then", "even before", "even now" etc. Just an idea.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC

User avatar
Cathbad
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:11 pm
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Cathbad »

Two ways to deal with it in High Eolic:

1) mirative particle ras: he/she MIR eat.PERF = "He/she has eaten already!"

2) for durative events, an alternative is nará "for a long time, for a long time [already]": [nará] he/she eat.IMPERF.NON1 = "He/she has already been eating for a while now"

User avatar
Jetboy
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Jetboy »

If you're going with the whole distance/time thing, for the places where "already" means "previously", why not have it also mean "behind"? So a sentence meaning "I already stood" could also be interpreted as "I stood behind".
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort."
–Herm Albright
Even better than a proto-conlang, it's the *kondn̥ǵʰwéh₂s

Bob Johnson
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:41 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Bob Johnson »

Besides "before now" and such, I have this:

A: suf rottep za
suf-∅ rop-tep za
plow-NOM Qi-LOC 3i.COP
Where is [the] plow?

B: pem pasodi
pem pas-ot-i
2h.ACC give-PFT-EMPH
Augh, I gave [it] to you already!

To contradict a negative, you have to use the emphatic (or you sound uncertain); here B is contradicting the unspoken accusation:

nun suvan sek paskan
nun-∅ suf-an sek pas-kan
2h-NOM plow-INS 1h.ACC give-NEG
You haven't given (aren't giving, won't give, etc) me the plow [which you agreed to do]

User avatar
Niedokonany
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 pm
Location: Kliwia Czarna

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Niedokonany »

Certain languages reportedly have auxilliary verbs to encode the old state/new state ( ~ still/already) distinction. Maybe it's not the most realistic solution in case of central Europe, though.
uciekajcie od światów konających

User avatar
Viktor77
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Viktor77 »

Thank you all for your responses! I'm considering them now. :)
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

User avatar
Nortaneous
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 4544
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Location: the Imperial Corridor

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Nortaneous »

Xiądz Faust wrote:Certain languages reportedly have auxilliary verbs to encode the old state/new state ( ~ still/already) distinction. Maybe it's not the most realistic solution in case of central Europe, though.
What do those auxiliaries normally derive from?
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

User avatar
Niedokonany
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 pm
Location: Kliwia Czarna

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Niedokonany »

Oh, I only vaguely remember it was probably something Caucasian (Dagestanian?), I can't find it anymore. In RMW Dixon's Ergativity there's a passage which reads "Discussing the North-east Caucasian language Archi (...) there are four auxiliary type verbs ('with the aspectual meanings durative/terminative and the tense meanings present/past and the additional tense/aspect meaning of continualis "begin and continue"')."
So it was probably about sth similar to it, perhaps a description of the same phenomenon from a different point of view.
uciekajcie od światów konających

User avatar
brandrinn
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:59 pm
Location: Seoul
Contact:

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by brandrinn »

How is it Yiuel hasn't been here yet?
Japanese combines "already" and "anymore" in "mo:"
Likewise, "yet" and "still" are combined in "mada"
The idea is, when a change is expected to occur in the past, you use the former, and when a change is expected in the future, you use the latter. English uses two words for each concept, one negative and one positive. In Japanese, the negation is just left up to the verb.

Korean is similar, but more complicated. The simple version is "daman" for yet/still, and "ajik" or "imi" for anymore/already.
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]

User avatar
Niedokonany
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 pm
Location: Kliwia Czarna

Re: Interesting ways to deal with "already"

Post by Niedokonany »

brandrinn wrote:How is it Yiuel hasn't been here yet?
Japanese combines "already" and "anymore" in "mo:"
Likewise, "yet" and "still" are combined in "mada"
This sounds similar to the Polish or Russian system (except that interrogative yet as in Have you done it yet? belongs to the former).
uciekajcie od światów konających

Post Reply