I know that Nepālī as a language isn't, but the tidbits are definitely beyond the scope of what most people think of as "IE".hwhatting wrote:Nice tidbits, but they're not exactly "from beyond IE":Arunas wrote:
Anyway, I've got some info on Nepālī. I don't think I can type in Devanagārī, so bear with me.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=nep
Best regards,
Hans-Werner
Tidbits from beyond IE
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)
Maybe we should move this to a thread "Fun features of IE languages"?Arunas wrote: I know that Nepālī as a language isn't, but the tidbits are definitely beyond the scope of what most people think of as "IE".
There is certainly a lot more like this out there - stuff most people would be surprised to find in IE languages, especially people who just have a cursory knowledge of a few European IE languags like English or Spanish (e.g., the split ergative system of some Iranian languages I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, the incipient tone systems of Norwegian or Serbo-Croatian, etc.).
Best regards,
Hans-Werner
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Re: IE
[quote="Ran"]No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.[/quote]
The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language? I'm pretty sure it has three phonemically distinguished tones: high, mid and low.
PS. Okay, technical problem #1.
The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language? I'm pretty sure it has three phonemically distinguished tones: high, mid and low.
PS. Okay, technical problem #1.
Re: IE
[quote="rotting ham"][quote="Ran"]No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.[/quote]
The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language? I'm pretty sure it has three phonemically distinguished tones: high, mid and low.
PS. Okay, technical problem #1.[/quote]Yeah I'm sure there's tone there too. And it says so in the book 'The Indo-Aryan Languages' by Colin P. Masica, which is in front of me here. In fact, it says (page 118): Contrastive tone is reported from several NIA languages and dialects, among them Chittagong and Dacca Bengali, Shina, Khowar, Gawarbati, Bashkarik, "Lahnda", Rajasthani, Dogri, several West Pahari dialects (Kochi, Shodochi, Bishshau, Rudhari, Khashali), and possibly Wotapuri, but undoubtedly the classic case of tone in NIA is Punjabi. There are two distinctive tones in Punjabi contrasting with the neutral tone: the High (or High-Falling /`/ and the Low (or Low-Rising) /´/. (Some would say there are three tones, including the neutral or "Mid" tone as one of them.)
The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language? I'm pretty sure it has three phonemically distinguished tones: high, mid and low.
PS. Okay, technical problem #1.[/quote]Yeah I'm sure there's tone there too. And it says so in the book 'The Indo-Aryan Languages' by Colin P. Masica, which is in front of me here. In fact, it says (page 118): Contrastive tone is reported from several NIA languages and dialects, among them Chittagong and Dacca Bengali, Shina, Khowar, Gawarbati, Bashkarik, "Lahnda", Rajasthani, Dogri, several West Pahari dialects (Kochi, Shodochi, Bishshau, Rudhari, Khashali), and possibly Wotapuri, but undoubtedly the classic case of tone in NIA is Punjabi. There are two distinctive tones in Punjabi contrasting with the neutral tone: the High (or High-Falling /`/ and the Low (or Low-Rising) /´/. (Some would say there are three tones, including the neutral or "Mid" tone as one of them.)
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Thanks, and apologies for resurrecting a thread four years after it expired for something regulars already know by now, I'm sure. (only for the L&L Museum, and only because the word Punjabi, Oikoumene's Čia-Ša, doesn't occur once in the whole forum according to the search function) This is how the tones are represented orthographically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurmukh%C4%AB_script
PS. Wait a minute, the Čia-Ša languages aren't tonal? I had an Eddyimpression that they were. Huh, just isolating.
P2S. I can't believe there isn't a single tonal Eastern language, the closest being Cuezi, which is only pitch-accented. Oh well, at least Lufaša is largely monosyllabic. That's one divergence Oikoumene hasn't produced to my knowledge. It looked tonal to me because of all these accents over the vowels like bák, chàn, nük, etc, but there's no reference to tones anywhere.
PS. Wait a minute, the Čia-Ša languages aren't tonal? I had an Eddyimpression that they were. Huh, just isolating.
P2S. I can't believe there isn't a single tonal Eastern language, the closest being Cuezi, which is only pitch-accented. Oh well, at least Lufaša is largely monosyllabic. That's one divergence Oikoumene hasn't produced to my knowledge. It looked tonal to me because of all these accents over the vowels like bák, chàn, nük, etc, but there's no reference to tones anywhere.
Last edited by rotting bones on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Man what is up with none of the BBCode working in this forum? It's pissing me off. >:|
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Re: IE
Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?rotting ham wrote:The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.
Re: IE
IIRC it's not quite, actually pitch accent. Says so here for example.TomHChappell wrote:Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?rotting ham wrote:The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.
Re: IE
Something inheirited from late PIE. Early (Vedic) Sanskrit also had a pitch accent.jmcd wrote:IIRC it's not quite, actually pitch accent. Says so here for example.TomHChappell wrote:Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?rotting ham wrote:The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Also some (south?) Slavic languages IIRC.
[quote="Jar Jar Binks"]Now, by making just a few small changes, we prettify the orthography for happier socialist tomorrow![/quote][quote="Xonen"]^ WHS. Except for the log thing and the Andean panpipers.[/quote]
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
I think what Ran may have been getting at is that none of the IE languages that have tones today inherited them from PIE ,even in a much-changed form. They all went through stages in which they were completely toneless and then re-developed tones in various ways. I don't think everyone agrees with this, though; I remember reading on this board somewhere that there are at least some people who believe that the tones of Latvian and Lithuanian do in fact trace back directly to PIE. Even so, it's nearly certain than Punjabi and the Slavic languages' tones are innovations and not inherited from Sanskrit/Proto-Slavic.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
I think that must be the case, because if I remember correctly, Swedish has tones (at least in some dialects), at the Flemish dialect (or sister-language, depending on one's argument) Limburgish, has tones. Both of these are, obviously IE (being Germanic).Soap wrote:I think what Ran may have been getting at is that none of the IE languages that have tones today inherited them from PIE ,even in a much-changed form. They all went through stages in which they were completely toneless and then re-developed tones in various ways.
[quote="Xephyr"]Kitties: little happy factories.[/quote]
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Soap wrote:Even so, it's nearly certain than Punjabi and the Slavic languages' tones are innovations and not inherited from Sanskrit/Proto-Slavic.
Nitpick: Slavic languages' tonal/pitch systems were in fact inherited from Proto-Slavic; however, Proto-Slavic did not inherit its system from PIE.
http://www.veche.net/
http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian
http://www.veche.net/novegradian - Grammar of Novegradian
http://www.veche.net/alashian - Grammar of Alashian
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Apparently, Melpa has a binary counting system.
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Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
What's their word for "toast"?Rorschach wrote:Apparently, Melpa has a binary counting system.
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Rorschach wrote:Apparently, Melpa has a binary counting system.
Interesting that they use different, seemingly unrelated forms for the dyades when they are alone and when they are in composed numbers (4 alone is "tembokak", in composed numbers it's "gudl", 8 alone is "engak", in composed numbers it's "pip").wikipedia wrote: 1
tenda
"one"
2
ragl
"two"
3
ragltika
"twone"
4
tembokak
"four"
5
pömp tsi gudl
"one past four"
6
pömp ragl gudl
"two past four"
7
pömp ragltika gudl
"twone past four"
8
engak
"eight"
9
pömp tsi pip
"one past eight"
10
pömp ragl pip
"two past eight"
@ Tom: Gah! It took me twenty minutes to get your awful pun.
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
I don't buy it... they haven't given us enough information to determine what happens past 10. Is 8+7 "pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip"? Because I doubt it – that'll get very confusing very quickly.
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip gudl pip pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip....finlay wrote:I don't buy it... they haven't given us enough information to determine what happens past 10. Is 8+7 "pömp pömp ragltika gudl pip"? Because I doubt it – that'll get very confusing very quickly.
It sure can
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
They were. But Zomp did a major overhaul a year or two ago on the Cia Shia languages.rotting bones wrote: PS. Wait a minute, the Čia-Ša languages aren't tonal? I had an Eddyimpression that they were. Huh, just isolating.
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]
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Re: IE
Damn, my computer can't handle .ram files for some reason.jmcd wrote:IIRC it's not quite, actually pitch accent. Says so here for example.TomHChappell wrote:Wasn't Classical Greek supposed to have been tonal?rotting ham wrote:The search isn't turning up anything, so I'll just go ahead and say it: Isn't Punjabi a tonal language?Ran wrote:No IE language, afaik, has any trace of tones.
"There was a particular car I soon came to think of as distinctly St. Louis-ish: a gigantic white S.U.V. with a W. bumper sticker on it for George W. Bush."
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Maybe try downloading real player then.
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.
Can VLC play .ram files?
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
I'm pretty sure VLC could play the sounds captured by putting ring patterns on ancient pottery.Nortaneous wrote:No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.
Can VLC play .ram files?
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]
Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
Last time I checked, it was one of the few formats it can't play, for some reason.Nortaneous wrote:No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.
Can VLC play .ram files?
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Re: Tidbits from beyond IE
That reason being Real won't release the codec.finlay wrote:Last time I checked, it was one of the few formats it can't play, for some reason.Nortaneous wrote:No, don't do that. RealPlayer is terrible and evil.jmcd wrote:Maybe try downloading real player then.
Can VLC play .ram files?