language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Discussions worth keeping around later.
Post Reply
User avatar
Přemysl
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Quinnehtkqut

language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Přemysl »

I wasn't sure if this counted as an L&L question. What vernacular language would have been spoken by a Jew in Jerusalem in the late 11th century (obviously before they were burnt alive even later in the century)? What stage of that language?

Astraios
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:38 am
Location: Israel

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Astraios »

The rulers around that time were the Fatimids or something, weren't they? So probably whatever languages they spoke.

User avatar
brandrinn
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:59 pm
Location: Seoul
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by brandrinn »

al-lugha al-franj ;)
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]

User avatar
WeepingElf
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by WeepingElf »

Arabic, I'd wager.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A

User avatar
Aurora Rossa
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1138
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:46 am
Location: The vendée of America
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Aurora Rossa »

WeepingElf wrote:Arabic, I'd wager.
Indeed, that's what everyone else was speaking in the area, were they not?
Image
"There was a particular car I soon came to think of as distinctly St. Louis-ish: a gigantic white S.U.V. with a W. bumper sticker on it for George W. Bush."

User avatar
vec
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 639
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:42 am
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by vec »

WeepingElf wrote:Arabic, I'd wager.
That's where I'd put my money. That's the language they were speaking there until the 20th century.
vec

User avatar
makvas
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:13 pm
Location: The Southland

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by makvas »

Eddy wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:Arabic, I'd wager.
Indeed, that's what everyone else was speaking in the area, were they not?
And that logic is why I believe the jews are still speaking arabic.

User avatar
brandrinn
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:59 pm
Location: Seoul
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by brandrinn »

The problem is, the mountainous areas of the levant happen to be a hotspot of linguistic diversity. Hell, there are still people in Lebanon speaking Aramaic. So I don't think "Everyone else was speaking Arabic" is a knock-out argument. Maybe somebody should... I don't know... go to the library?
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]

User avatar
Aurora Rossa
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1138
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:46 am
Location: The vendée of America
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Aurora Rossa »

brandrinn wrote:The problem is, the mountainous areas of the levant happen to be a hotspot of linguistic diversity. Hell, there are still people in Lebanon speaking Aramaic.
Whoa really? Considering that thousands of years have passed since the heyday of Aramaic, it must have undergone extraordinary amounts of linguistic change. How can we even consider the modern variety the same language as Aramaic spoken over two thousand years ago?
Image
"There was a particular car I soon came to think of as distinctly St. Louis-ish: a gigantic white S.U.V. with a W. bumper sticker on it for George W. Bush."

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by finlay »

In the same way that speakers of Basque and Chinese consider themselves to speak the same language as 2000 years ago: continuity. Besides, if you actually bothered to read, you'll find that this is addressed in the wikipedia article; modern Aramaic can be argued to be a bunch of related languages (or dialects/varieties).

User avatar
Khvaragh
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Cairo, Egypt
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Khvaragh »

They probably spoke several languages, in different contexts. It's highly likely, unless they lived in isolated all-Jewish villages, that they spoke Medieval Arabic (many famous Jews actually wrote in Arabic; the 9th/10th century scholar Sa`adiah ben Gaon wrote most of his books in Arabic, such as Emunoth veDe`oth or "Beliefs and Doctrinal Knowledge," probably implying that it was the language he most expected people to be able to read) - or at least, spoke it in mixed situations. In non-Gentile settings, I would imagine they used an Aramaic dialect (keep in mind that this is what most of the Gemara of the Talmud is written in; most of the Mishnah is Hebrew), and was supposedly the mother tongue of many Jews even during Jesus' time), though they may have used Hebrew. I'm nearly positive that they used Hebrew for their religious services, prayers, etc.
Eddy wrote:
brandrinn wrote:The problem is, the mountainous areas of the levant happen to be a hotspot of linguistic diversity. Hell, there are still people in Lebanon speaking Aramaic.
Whoa really? Considering that thousands of years have passed since the heyday of Aramaic, it must have undergone extraordinary amounts of linguistic change. How can we even consider the modern variety the same language as Aramaic spoken over two thousand years ago?
Obviously, it's not the "same" language - in the same way that Old English and Modern English aren't the same language. But they are also not completely "different" languages i.e. finlay is quite correct. Modern Hebrew is a great example; it sounds nothing like what Mishnaic Hebrew is reconstructed to have sounded like - leaving aside grammatical changes, like the fossilization/lexicalization of the smikhut construction (the same happened in Syriac, though it is still quite productive and rarely lexicalized in Arabic) in favor of a more analytic construction. Note that many forms of written modern Aramaic still use the Syriac abjad, and there's often the sense that speakers consider their languages to be dialects of Syriac (or Mandaic, which uses a greatly altered form of the Syriac abjad).
لا يرقىء الله عيني من بكى حجراً
ولا شفى وجد من يصبو إلى وتدِ
("May God never dry the tears of those who cry over stones, nor ease the love-pangs of those who yearn for tent-pegs.") - Abu Nawas

Yng
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:17 pm
Location: Llundain

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Yng »

I'd tentatively agree - probably Arabic in gentilic contexts, and potentially Aramaic in Jewish contexts and Hebrew for religious ceremonies.
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar

tiramisu
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 5:07 pm

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by tiramisu »

Possibly some Greek-speaking Jewish communities too?

Bristel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Bristel »

brandrinn wrote:al-lugha al-franj ;)
Did the Crusaders speak French or Frankish?
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró

User avatar
brandrinn
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:59 pm
Location: Seoul
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by brandrinn »

Bristel wrote:
brandrinn wrote:al-lugha al-franj ;)
Did the Crusaders speak French or Frankish?
Frankish was dead by then, and not all the Crusaders were French. But "franj" became a generic word for them among the Arabs.
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]

User avatar
Terra
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 10:01 am

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Terra »

Did the Crusaders speak French or Frankish?
Old French, which is Western Vulgar Latin with Frankish loanwords and influences on grammar.

And yeah, not all crusaders were from France. Although, even Richard the Lionheart, despite being the king of England, didn't speak English; he spoke French.

Also, what's "al-lugha"?

User avatar
masako
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:31 pm
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by masako »

Erde wrote:"al-lugha"?
"The Language" in Arabic.

here

Bristel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1258
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Bristel »

Ah, thanks everyone.

For one second, I thought that "al-franj" was from "Franja de Ponent", to which I thought "WTF?" But then cooler heads prevailed, and I translated it.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró

Mr. Z
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Mr. Z »

sano wrote:
Erde wrote:"al-lugha"?
"The Language" in Arabic.

here
If I'm not mistaken, Classical Arabic had "al-lura" <r> = /ʁ/, and /ʁ/ was fronted to /ɣ/ later.
Přemysl wrote:
Kereb wrote:they are nerdissimus inter nerdes
Oh god, we truly are nerdy. My first instinct was "why didn't he just use sunt and have it all in Latin?".
Languages I speak fluently
English, עברית

Languages I am studying
العربية, 日本語

Conlangs
Athonian

User avatar
Khvaragh
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Cairo, Egypt
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Khvaragh »

Mr. Z wrote:
sano wrote:
Erde wrote:"al-lugha"?
"The Language" in Arabic.

here
If I'm not mistaken, Classical Arabic had "al-lura" <r> = /ʁ/, and /ʁ/ was fronted to /ɣ/ later.
This is wrong (Arabic already has a /r/ phoneme, denoted by <ر>, and there is no evidence in the grammatical literature to suggest that <غ> was ever considered another kind of rhotic). The velar-uvular fricative is reconstructed from Proto-Semitic, and Arabic is one of the few Semitic languages to retain it (it merged with /ʕ/ in almost all others). A realization of Classical /r/ as /ʁ/ is a feature of a small number of dialects, such as the Jewish dialect of Baghdad, and is probably a result of substratum influence from Hebrew or Aramaic.

I think you're confusing Pre-Mishnaic Hebrew with Arabic. Modern Hebrew has the development /r/>/ʁ/, but this happened after the merging of */ɣ/ and */ʕ/ into /ʕ/. For example, Arabic مغرب /maɣrib/ "sunset, evening," Hebrew מעריב /maʕăriv>maʔaʁiv/ "evening."
لا يرقىء الله عيني من بكى حجراً
ولا شفى وجد من يصبو إلى وتدِ
("May God never dry the tears of those who cry over stones, nor ease the love-pangs of those who yearn for tent-pegs.") - Abu Nawas

Mr. Z
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Mr. Z »

Khvaragh wrote:
Mr. Z wrote:
sano wrote:
Erde wrote:"al-lugha"?
"The Language" in Arabic.

here
If I'm not mistaken, Classical Arabic had "al-lura" <r> = /ʁ/, and /ʁ/ was fronted to /ɣ/ later.
This is wrong (Arabic already has a /r/ phoneme, denoted by <ر>, and there is no evidence in the grammatical literature to suggest that <غ> was ever considered another kind of rhotic). The velar-uvular fricative is reconstructed from Proto-Semitic, and Arabic is one of the few Semitic languages to retain it (it merged with /ʕ/ in almost all others). A realization of Classical /r/ as /ʁ/ is a feature of a small number of dialects, such as the Jewish dialect of Baghdad, and is probably a result of substratum influence from Hebrew or Aramaic.

I think you're confusing Pre-Mishnaic Hebrew with Arabic. Modern Hebrew has the development /r/>/ʁ/, but this happened after the merging of */ɣ/ and */ʕ/ into /ʕ/. For example, Arabic مغرب /maɣrib/ "sunset, evening," Hebrew מעריב /maʕăriv>maʔaʁiv/ "evening."
No, you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that the Classical Arabic rhotic was an uvular fricative; I just used <r> to represent it here, because that's easier than using some diacritical thing. AFAIK, Arabic /ɣ/ was /ʁ/ in Classical Arabic; ر is unrelated, and I used <r> simply because I perceive /ʁ/ as <r>, being a native Hebrew speaker. I'm sorry for the confusion; but am I not right about the /ʁ/ >/ɣ/ thing?
Přemysl wrote:
Kereb wrote:they are nerdissimus inter nerdes
Oh god, we truly are nerdy. My first instinct was "why didn't he just use sunt and have it all in Latin?".
Languages I speak fluently
English, עברית

Languages I am studying
العربية, 日本語

Conlangs
Athonian

User avatar
Khvaragh
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:40 pm
Location: Cairo, Egypt
Contact:

Re: language in 11th century Jerusalem?

Post by Khvaragh »

Mr. Z wrote: No, you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that the Classical Arabic rhotic was an uvular fricative; I just used <r> to represent it here, because that's easier than using some diacritical thing. AFAIK, Arabic /ɣ/ was /ʁ/ in Classical Arabic; ر is unrelated, and I used <r> simply because I perceive /ʁ/ as <r>, being a native Hebrew speaker. I'm sorry for the confusion; but am I not right about the /ʁ/ >/ɣ/ thing?
Ok then, but <r> is really not a good way to represent this sound, because Arabic already has an /r/ phoneme which is typically transliterated as <r>. You can easily transliterate /ɣ/, without diacritics, as <gh>. Yes, غ is typically analyzed as having been realized as [ʁ] in Classical Arabic, but honestly, I think the distinction is rather unimportant, because no Semitic language (that I'm aware of) has a phonemic distinction between /ʁ/ and /ɣ/ (the Baghdadi dialect is an extremely marginal example IMO). Whether that phoneme is now realized as [ɣ] is another question; IMO, I wouldn't say it's across the board, but [ɣ] is definitely dominant in some dialects, like Egyptian and Levantine for example. On the other hand, some Gulf and Moroccan I've heard has the realization much closer to or at [ʁ].
لا يرقىء الله عيني من بكى حجراً
ولا شفى وجد من يصبو إلى وتدِ
("May God never dry the tears of those who cry over stones, nor ease the love-pangs of those who yearn for tent-pegs.") - Abu Nawas

Post Reply