compounds and agreement

[Vardelm]

Couple questions about compounds:

1) Do any natlangs allow the use of a plural form on attributive descriptors? For example, instead of saying "flowerpot", it would be "flowerspot". If so, when do they tend to be used?

2) Do any natlangs require agreement for number, gender, definiteness, etc. between two parts of a compound?

3) If a language required agreement for number and definiteness for adjectives and noun used attributively and also for number between two parts of a compound when they are both nouns, would it be odd for the same number agreement to NOT be required for compound consisting of an adjective and a noun?

[Timmytiptoe]

Dutch has 1: Bloemenwinkel (Flowers shop). There are also compunds like koksmuts (chef's hat), but AFAICT that derives from the genitive. I'm not sure though.

[linguoboy]

Dutch has 1: Bloemenwinkel (Flowers shop).

Similarly German Blumenladen. But it's difficult to say whether this is actually "plural" as opposed to merely an instance of the oblique stem. (The genitive of Blume in MHG--in both singular and plural--was bluomen. In fact, this was the form of the word in every instance but nominative singular.) Similarly with Kindergarten, since -er was an oblique stem for a particular class of neuters before it became reinterpreted as a plural ending and extended by analogy.

[MisterBernie]

Analysis of German Fugenlaute is ... diverse. The most intriguing synchronous analysis I've seen (only in a summary, alas) is that they're best seen as specific compound markers to show that a word goes on for a bit.

[zompist]

A few rare examples from English: menfolk, cattleman, cattle prod, means testing, passersby.

Spanish has an interesting derivation using a verb plus a plural: tocadiscos, paraguas, lavaplatos.

[linguoboy]

Spanish has an interesting derivation using a verb plus a plural: tocadiscos, paraguas, lavaplatos.

I was always disappointed that the plural of tocadiscos is not *tocandiscos.

[Sevly]

Spanish has an interesting derivation using a verb plus a plural: tocadiscos, paraguas, lavaplatos.

As does French, I think. A quick google search brings up cherche-étoiles for 'planisphere', and I'm sure I've seen more.

[alice]

Spanish has an interesting derivation using a verb plus a plural: tocadiscos, paraguas, lavaplatos.

As does French, I think. A quick google search brings up cherche-étoiles for 'planisphere', and I'm sure I've seen more.

casse-tête for a jigsaw (the kind that's made of wooden pieces you fit together, not the sort you break heads with, curiously).

[linguoboy]

Spanish has an interesting derivation using a verb plus a plural: tocadiscos, paraguas, lavaplatos.

As does French, I think. A quick google search brings up cherche-étoiles for 'planisphere', and I'm sure I've seen more.

casse-tête for a jigsaw (the kind that's made of wooden pieces you fit together, not the sort you break heads with, curiously).

Tête is singular.

In general, French seems to prefer singulars where Spanish has plurals, e.g. tourne-disque for tocadiscos, lave-vaisselle for lavaplatos, parapluie for paraguas, etc. But there are some examples of plurals, e.g. casse-pieds, sèche-cheveux, lave-mains, coupe-ongles.

[linguoboy]

A few rare examples from English: menfolk, cattleman, cattle prod, means testing, passersby.

I've also noticed a bit of a BE-AE split in these, e.g. drugs policy vs drug policy, maths class vs math class, drinks prices vs drink prices.

And menfolk reminds me that I have seen menservants as the plural of manservant.

[Yng]

A few rare examples from English: menfolk, cattleman, cattle prod, means testing, passersby.

I've also noticed a bit of a BE-AE split in these, e.g. drugs policy vs drug policy, maths class vs math class, drinks prices vs drink prices.

And menfolk reminds me that I have seen menservants as the plural of manservant.

'Maths class' isn't really a plural, though - nobody would ever say 'math' here. 'Maths' may look plural, but it's grammatically singular.

[Terra]

maths class vs math class

Strangely, it's still "stats class" in the states though.

Mathematics -> Maths
Statistics -> Stats
Combinatorics -> ???
Physics -> ??? (Short enough that it probably would never be shortened anyways.)

[finlay]

-ics is a bit of a special suffix in that it can be either singular (or uncountable) or plural depending on the usage. And there's sometimes a bit of a pond split. What I mean is, you can have multiple statistics, meaning data points, or statistics, the singular/uncountable noun referring to the subject. With some like politics, the US usage is plural when the UK usage is singular. (eg His politics is/are liberal; Politics is/are a boring subject)

I remember having this all explained for English by a linguistics book, possibly by Steven Pinker. Generally the compounds which are modified by a plural noun are irregular, otherwise the modifier must be singular... with irregular plurals it's variable between the two, eg women-hating menfolk (or woman-hating menfolk), but car-hating hippyfolk, not *cars-hating hippies-folk

[Bob Johnson]

Physics -> ??? (Short enough that it probably would never be shortened anyways.)

Bio/chem/phys.

With some like politics, the US usage is plural when the UK usage is singular. (eg His politics is/are liberal; Politics is/are a boring subject)

I'd forgotten about that particular bit of cross-pondishness.

Probably not really related, but: Your side treats corporations as plural, right? A group of people, rather than an abstract entity.

Plurality is weird.

[finlay]

In general, yeah. You can do both.

Sometimes there's a more interesting distinction that arises, like when you talk about a country with plural agreement, you're generally talking about their football team (eg "England are doing very well this weekend" is generally talking about the UEFA cup, while "England is doing very well this weekend" is probably talking about the economy. But this is all a bit fuzzy). It's worth noting that sports teams in America tend to have a nickname (Chicago Falcons or Minnesota Wallabies or Los Angeles Angels or something), while sports teams here often tend to just have a name, generally the place where they're from (Manchester United, Chelsea, Celtic, Norwich City, Arsenal, West Ham. Occasionally you get things that are plural, like Rangers, but they're never "the Rangers" as I believe you would be tempted to say in American sports terminology).

At some point you're probably going to realise that I know nothing about sports and am talking out my arse to some degree here.

[linguoboy]

Occasionally you get things that are plural, like Rangers, but they're never "the Rangers" as I believe you would be tempted to say in American sports terminology).

In fact, if you said "the Rangers", first thing to pop into my head would be the Major League Baseball franchise of that name.

In fact, I find it odd when sports teams have names that aren't pluralised count-nouns, e.g. Miami Heat or the Utah Jazz. My hometown hockey team, the St Louis Blues, wasn't really in this category because (a) "blues" is a plurale tantum and (b) sportcasters rather clearly solved the problem of what to call an individual player by referring to them as "Blue notes". (This solution doesn't exist for Utah, since there is no such thing as a "jazz note".)

Speaking of pluralia tantum, are there varieties which singularise them (or at least appear to) in compounds? *"Scissor handle" might work for some English-speakers, but it doesn't for me. But it is a "trouser press" and not a *"trousers press" (not that this is a word I ever have reason to use in ordinary life).

[Terra]

With some like politics, the US usage is plural when the UK usage is singular. (eg His politics is/are liberal; Politics is/are a boring subject)

I'd have "are" for the first and "is" for the second. I don't think I'd ever say the first though, instead opting for: "He's a liberal.", or "He's liberal." if the context of politics is understood.

Bio/chem/phys.

I've heard the first two, but never the third.

[Lyhoko Leaci]

With some like politics, the US usage is plural when the UK usage is singular. (eg His politics is/are liberal; Politics is/are a boring subject)

I'd have "are" for the first and "is" for the second. I don't think I'd ever say the first though, instead opting for: "He's a liberal.", or "He's liberal." if the context of politics is understood.

That seems to be what I would say, too, for both parts.

Bio/chem/phys.

I've heard the first two, but never the third.

And same here.

[Bob Johnson]

Bio/chem/phys.

I've heard the first two, but never the third.

And same here.

So you would pronounce the name of, say, this course as [ˈfɪzɪks ˌwʌnoʊˈwʌn] or some such?

And you haven't even heard Phys Ed? Different expansion, pronounced the same.

[Lyhoko Leaci]

And same here.

So you would pronounce the name of, say, this course as [ˈfɪzɪks ˌwʌnoʊˈwʌn] or some such?

Yes.

And you haven't even heard Phys Ed? Different expansion, pronounced the same.

Yes, but that's not physics, which the original comment was about, and that's probably why, "phys" is already short for something else. Plus it's not used by itself.

[Terra]

So you would pronounce the name of, say, this course as [ˈfɪzɪks ˌwʌnoʊˈwʌn] or some such?

Verily.

And you haven't even heard Phys Ed? Different expansion, pronounced the same.

Negative.

A few rare examples from English: menfolk, cattleman, cattle prod, means testing, passersby.

Here's another: "a heads-up".