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zompist bboard • View topic - TC: Relative and complementizer clauses

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:15 am 
Smeric
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Last edited by Ser on Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:57 am 
Avisaru
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I saw the house that Jack built.
我看到傑克蓋的房子。
wǒ kàn dào jiékè gài de fángzi
1s see done Jack construct GEN house



I know that Jack built that house.
我知道傑克蓋了那間房子。
wǒ zhīdào jiékè gàile nà jiān fángzi
1s know Jack construct-PERF that COUNTER house


The complementizer clause would be more natural in the passive:
我知道那間房子是傑克蓋的。
wǒ zhīdào nà jiān fángzi shì jiékè gài de
1s know that COUNTER house be Jack construct GEN



I saw the house where Jack was born.
我看到傑克出生的房子。
wǒ kàn dào jiékè chūshēng de fángzi
1s see done Jack be_born GEN house



I know that you know.
我知道你知道。
wǒ zhīdào nǐ zhīdào
1s know 2s know

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Last edited by treskro on Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:59 am 
Sanci
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:41 am 
Avisaru
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I saw the house that Jack built.
I know that Jack built that house.
I saw the house where Jack was born.[/quote]
Also, I know that you know, since that's what started it.

Gwelais i'r tŷ a adeiladodd Jac.
gwel-ais i'r tŷ a adeilad-odd Jac

I saw the house that Jack built.

Gwn i yr adeiladodd Jac y tŷ hwnnw.
gwn i yr adeilad-odd Jac y tŷ hwnnw

I know that Jack built that house.

If Jack requires more emphasis:

Gwn i mai Jac a adeiladodd y tŷ hwnnw.
gwn i mai Jac a adeilad-odd y tŷ hwnnw

I know that Jack built that house.

Gwelais i'r tŷ lle y ganwyd Jac.
Gwel-ais i'r tŷ lle y gan-wyd Jac

I saw the house where Jack was born.

Gwn i fy mod yn gwybod.
gwn i fy mod yn gwybod

I know that I know (it).

Welsh has two main relativisers, a and y, both preverbal particles. A subject of a verb takes a, as does an object of a simple (i.e. conjugated) verb. y deals with relations which were historically non-core: genitives, etc, and typically requires a resumptive pronoun. This includes the objects of periphrastic constructions, since these were originally in the genitive. A causes mutation, y doesn't. So:

Y dyn a welais i.
Y dyn a wel-ais i

The man I saw.

Y dyn a welodd i.
Y dyn a wel-odd i

The man that saw me.

Y dyn y gwnes i'w weld.
Y dyn y gwn-es i ei wel-d

The man I saw.

Y dyn yr o'n ni'n siarad amdano fo.
Y dyn yr o-n ni yn siarad-ø am-dano fo

The man we were talking about.

This is the typical fronting strategy for emphasis: y dyn yr o'n ni'n siarad amdano fo can also be interpreted as 'we were talking about the man' and also for wh-movement:

Beth a welaist ti?
Beth a wel-aist ti?

What did you see?

Both a and y are typically elided in conversation, however, and confusion between them goes all the way back to Middle Welsh, as might be expected. Both can be negated with the equivalent preverbal particle na, which causes mutation:

Y dyn nad o'n ni'n siarad amdano fo.
Y dyn nad o-n ni yn siarad-ø am-dano fo

The man we weren't talking about.

Y dyn na welodd i.
Y dyn na wel-odd i

The man that didn't see me.

Note also that bod, 'to be', has a special form which replaces the ungrammatical *a mae when its subject is fronted:

Y dyn sydd yn fy nabod i.
Y dyn sydd yn fy nabod i

The man that knows me.

Subordination is also quite complex. The general subordinator is y:

Gwyddost ti y bawn i'n siarad gydag e.
Gwydd-ost ti y ba-wn i yn siarad-ø gyda e

You know I would speak to him.

Fronted sentences can be subordinated with mai or dialectally taw, frozen forms of 'to be':

Gwyddost mai'r dyn a welodd i ydy o.
Gwydd-ost mai'r dyn a wel-odd i ydy o

You know that he's the man who saw me.

Imperfect and present indicative forms of 'to be' take a unique construction with a verbnoun. Normally possessive pronouns represent the object, but with this construction, they represent the subject instead:

Gwyddost ti ei fod yn gadael.
Gwydd-ost ti ei fod yn gada-el

You know that he's leaving.

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كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!





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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:08 am 
Avisaru
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:34 am
Posts: 382
Location: Paris
Simbri:

Simbri uses the definite articles as relativizers.

I saw the house that Jack built.
Ide ty Jak fairra souse romne.
I ART.cl.5 Jack build.PFV.3s house see.1s.AOR

ty is the class 5 article; souse, house is a class V noun, and thus the head of the noun clause. Changing the word order to ty Jak souse fairra would be grammatical (but unusual).

I know that Jack built that house
Ide so Jak ji souse fairra rymbre.
I ART.cl.7 Jack that house build.PFV.3s know.1s

so, the class 7 article, nominalizes the entire clause: "the fact that Jack built the house" as the direct object of rumbre.

I saw the house where Jack was born.
Ide ty Jak yn haiten souse romne.
I ART.cl.V Jack in be.born.MID.AOR.3s house see.1s.AOR

The construction is identical to the first example. The postposition yn could be omitted; haiten is intransitive, with a clearly identified subject Jak and it's pretty clear that souse has an adverbial role.
I know that you know.
Ide so rò thi rymbrai rymbre
I ART.cl.VII you it know.2s know.1s

thi, it cannot be omitted: rymbra, to know requires a direct object.
Ide so thi rymbrai rymbre means 'I know what you know'.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:42 am 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:18 am 
Sumerul
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Latin (without macrons because I'm lazy):
Domum quam Iacobus aedificavit vidi.
house-F.SG.ACC REL.F.SG.ACC Jack-M.SG.NOM build-PRF.3SG see.PRF-PRF.1SG
I saw the house that Jack built

Iacobum illam domum aedificavisse scio.
Jack-M.SG.ACC that-F.SG.ACC house-F.SG.ACC build-PRF.INF know-1SG
"I know Jack to have built that house."
(I think that's right, anyway – correct me if it's bad word order or anything, but I know that Latin tends to phrase these kinds of sentences with ACC+INF rather than a complementizer clause.)

Domum qua Iacobus natus est vidi.
house-F.SG.ACC REL.F.SG.ABL Jack-M.SG.NOM born.PART COP.3SG see.PRF-PRF.1SG
I saw the house where Jack was born.

Te scire scio.
2SG.ACC know-INF know-1SG
"I know you to know."


French:
J'ai vu la maison que Jacques a construit.
1SG=PRF.1SG see.PART DEF.F.SG house REL.ACC Jack PRF.3SG build-PART
I saw the house that Jack built.
(How do you gloss a periphrastic perfect? I mean it's not "have see.PART" or something, right? In fact, I don't know how to gloss shit in French, or really in English for that matter, so maybe I should just give up now...)

Je sais que Jacques a construit cette maison-là.
1SG know.1SG REL Jack PRF.3SG build-PART that.F.SG house=there
I know that Jack built that house.

J'ai vu la maison où Jacques est né.
1SG=PRF.1SG see.PART DEF.F.SG house where Jack PRF.3SG born.PART.M.SG
I saw the house where Jack was born.

Je sais que tu sais.
1SG know.1SG REL 2SG.INF know.2SG
I know that you know.
or
Je sais que vous savez.
1SG know.1SG REL 2SG.FRM know.2PL
I know that you know.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:49 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:58 pm
Posts: 807
Are some people trying to translate
"I know that you know"
(complement clause)
while others are trying to translate
"I know what you know"
(relative clause)
?


Last edited by TomHChappell on Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:21 pm 
Smeric
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No, some people (I) were confusing themselves (myself), which in turn confuses other people after I tried to explain how and why I confused myself.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:49 pm 
Avisaru
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Location: Hyperborea
fu niλ [h]e zav tu ɕyð ɕydi ûar jaka
TENSEMARKER.PAST ART.NOM.1PS.DAT COP.PRES see ART.NOM.DEF.SING.ABS house build ART.META.NAME.ERG Jack
"I saw the house that Jack built."

fu ðin bon jaka e ɕydi tu ɕyð
TENSEMARKER.PAST ART.NOM.1PS.OBSERVER ART.NOM.NAME.ERG Jack COP.PRES build ART.NOM.DEF.SING.ABS house
"I know that Jack built the house."

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:52 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:21 pm 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:38 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:49 pm 
Avisaru
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I see. Thanks for the advice.

I guess I figured it looked odd to write an inflection without having something that's inflected - so "tense marker" and "article" are the things being inflected, as I saw it.

If "ART" is redundant, then it would be logical to also consider "COP" redundant, since they work in similar ways - the article marks a noun phrase, and the copula marks a verb phrase. Technically it probably shouldn't say "PRES" since it's marking an aspect/mood combination, not a tense. So I guess I could replace "COP.PRES" with "IPFV.IND" or something. But that would be confusing, since you wouldn't normally think of it as an aspect-mood marker, you would think of it as a this-is-a-verb-phrase marker.

"Nom" is supposed to stand for "nominal form", which admittedly is not obvious, but it's hard to abbreviate in a way that doesn't look like "nominative".

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:56 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:26 pm 
Avisaru
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Well, my conlang isn't made to be naturalistic, and it does a couple of things that others usually don't. That makes glossing a little tricky.

One notable feature is that all content words are treated the same way - there is no distinction between nouns, verbs, adjectives, even prepositions. Instead it's the function words which tell you if something is a noun phrase or a verb phrase. Articles (a.k.a. "noun articles", "pronouns", "determiners") and copulas (a.k.a. "verb articles") are very much parallels. Save for the difference that the copulas have a ton of inflections, and the articles have three tons.

Apart from case, person, number, definiteness and all that, the articles have another inflection axis; I call it "level", until I find a better word. It can be "nominal", "attributive" or "meta".

Nominal produces an argument to the main verb - i.e. a nominal phrase. Attributive produces an attribute of such an argument. Meta produces an argument to the attribute. Most cases can't be in all of the levels - abs, erg and dat can't be attributive, and genitive can only be attributive. Examples:

NOM.ABS paint NOM.LOC forest COP stand
"The painting stands in the forest."

NOM.ABS paint ATTR.LOC forest COP stand
"The painting in the forest stands."

NOM.ABS paint META.LOC forest COP stand
"The thing which was painted in the forest stands."

Um, does that make any sense? Didn't mean to take up the whole thread, but I do appreciate if you can help me express things in a more linguisticsy way. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:43 pm 
Sumerul
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:52 pm 
Avisaru
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in Ishtol:

I saw the house that Jack built.
tsat bul ya wek e chachū` i Chak
see I OBJ house REL perf-build SUBJ Jack

I know that Jack built that house.
`ōb bul ya le chachū` wek kwet i Chak
know I OBJ COMP perf-build house that SUBJ Jack

I saw the house where Jack was born.
tsat bul ya wek e `āshets i Chak
see I OBJ house REL LOC:APPL-be:born SUBJ Jack

I know that you know
`ōb bul ya le `ōb kī
know I OBJ COMP know you


The relative particle is e and the complementizer particle is le, but they have other uses as well. e also forms appositions: tū`ip e naya`iwish "my sister the professor", and le on its own without the subject marker i or the object marker ya forms clauses that mean "so that ..."

Also there's a locative applicative in the third sentence. Works like this:

shets i Chak
be:born SUBJ jack
Jack was born

`āshets wek kwet i Chak
LOC:APPL-be:born house that SUBJ Jack
Jack was born in that house

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:20 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:47 pm 
Sumerul
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keep it here – their primary purpose is to get people practising their conlangs, although seeing natlangs is always a bonus and a lot of people only produce natlang translations. (I don't think I've ever seen Astraios post anything but Lakota, for instance – does he even have a conlang anymore? :P)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:53 pm 
Sumerul
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Well, he kinda does but a) he doesn't really like it that much because everything he makes seems boring in comparison with Lakota, and b) he has issues with committing to one thing exclusively for a long time.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:46 pm 
Avisaru
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He should do a Lakota descendant. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:48 pm 
Sumerul
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He could try!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:03 pm 
Smeric
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I'm a little nervous posting this because it's a litte odd. :/

Í como visie via Jack prementè enconstructùra, la zha.
1SG.M PST see by Jack DPST PASS-build, DEF.SG.F house-ACC.F
I saw the house that Jack built.

Í sciensa Jack prementè constructùra lisu zha.
1SG.M know Jack DPST build DEM.DET.DIST.SG.F house-ACC.F
I know that Jack built that house.

Í como visie Jack prementè nàtività in, la zha.
1SG.M PST see Jack DPST be.born inside DEF.SG.F house-ACC.F
I saw the house where Jack was born.

I need to work with that last type of sentence, because I'm not sure at all how to express it. Is it a place clause?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:25 pm 
Avisaru
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Ancaron:

I saw the house that Jack built.
Def donripit Dac donpuc muc.
house PST-REL-build Jack PST-see 1

Don't confuse with:
Def donpit Dac donpuc muc.
house PST-build Jack PST-see 1
I saw Jack build the house.

I know that Jack built that house.
Zain def donripit Dac tov muc.
that house PST-REL-build Jack know 1

I saw the house where Jack was born.
Def tan donrisiran Dac donpuc muc.
house in PST-REL-be_born Jack PST-see 1
I saw the house that Jack was born in.

I know that you know
Ritov tov muc.
REL-know know 1
I know (you) know.

Myonian:

I saw the house that Jack built.
I se ði shyuusa ðet bilt Jhek.
1.SG see.PST.1.SG the house REL build.PST.3.SG Jack

I know that Jack built that house.
I wet ðet bilt Jhek ðet shyuusa.
1.SG know.1.SG REL build.PST.3.SG Jack that house

I saw the house where Jack was born.
I se ði shyuusa hweur waz Jhek garierda.
1.SG see.PST.1.SG the house where be.PST.3.SG Jack born

I know that you know
I wet ðet ðyuu wetst.
I wet ðet yu wiþen.
1.SG know.1.SG REL 2.SG.INFORMAL know-2.INFORMAL.SG REL
1.SG know.1.SG REL 2.SG.FORMAL know-2.FORMAL REL


Riraqa Astaraiqos tov Lioku.
Lyhoko wet ðet ist Astraios ovurstreeŋþ biin.
Lyhoko thinks that Astraios is being silly. :P


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