The Lesser-Used Sounds

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Re: Re:

Post by Ser »

TomHChappell wrote:
Serafín wrote:
TomHChappell wrote:Does anyone's conlang ever use any sounds where the mobile or "soft" articulator is in the speaker's mouth but the stabile or "hard" articulator is in the addressee's mouth?

Neqitan wrote:Sort of a French kiss?? :P

TomHChappell wrote:I think maybe so; or, maybe, an "alfalfa" kiss.

"Alfalfa"? What do you mean? Alfalfa is a kind of plant in Spanish...


While your mouths are together both say "alfalfa".
Nothing to do with plants or Spanish, anymore than butterfly kisses have anything to do with mariposas or French kissing has to do with French.
I posted the question in April 2009. That took a while....

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Nortaneous wrote:Nah, they don't have creaky-voiced implosives or vowel systems with more phonations than POAs. :P


There is a Chechen dialect that has 66 vowels. Care to reconsider your evaluation :D ?
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Acid Badger »

Darkgamma wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Nah, they don't have creaky-voiced implosives or vowel systems with more phonations than POAs. :P


There is a Chechen dialect that has 66 vowels. Care to reconsider your evaluation :D ?

I'd love to see a source for this

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Nortaneous »

Avo wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Nah, they don't have creaky-voiced implosives or vowel systems with more phonations than POAs. :P


There is a Chechen dialect that has 66 vowels. Care to reconsider your evaluation :D ?

I'd love to see a source for this

I'd bet that figure includes diphthongs, nasals, and semivowel+vowel sequences.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Nortaneous wrote:
Avo wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Nah, they don't have creaky-voiced implosives or vowel systems with more phonations than POAs. :P


There is a Chechen dialect that has 66 vowels. Care to reconsider your evaluation :D ?

I'd love to see a source for this

I'd bet that figure includes diphthongs, nasals, and semivowel+vowel sequences.


Diphthongs, monophthongs, nasalised varieties of everything, semivowel+vowel that behave as if a diphthong, and a length distinction on all of them.
And, my bad, it's actually 56 = 14*2*2
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Ser »

Darkgamma wrote:Diphthongs, monophthongs, nasalised varieties of everything, semivowel+vowel that behave as if a diphthong, and a length distinction on all of them.
And, my bad, it's actually 56 = 14*2*2
Meh. If you put it that way, even Spanish would have 33 vowels*, without counting nasalized allophones, and without counting stress (which is basically some combination of length and then tone/intonation).

*piso, peso, paso, poso, puso, pie, vio, cordial, viuda, luego, vacuo, cuando, ruido, rey, hoy, aire, muy, Europa, bou, aura, lidiáis, lidiéis, dioico, miau, Paraguay, buey, guau, realeza, coagular, maestranza, tahonero, férreo, poesía. Taken from Canellada, M. J. & J. K. Madsen's Pronunciación del español (1987), Editorial Castalia: Madrid (pp. 10, 50-2).

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Serafín wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:Diphthongs, monophthongs, nasalised varieties of everything, semivowel+vowel that behave as if a diphthong, and a length distinction on all of them.
And, my bad, it's actually 56 = 14*2*2
Meh. If you put it that way, even Spanish would have 33 vowels*, without counting nasalized allophones, and without counting stress (which is basically some combination of length and then tone/intonation).

*piso, peso, paso, poso, puso, pie, vio, cordial, viuda, luego, vacuo, cuando, ruido, rey, hoy, aire, muy, Europa, bou, aura, lidiáis, lidiéis, dioico, miau, Paraguay, buey, guau, realeza, coagular, maestranza, tahonero, férreo, poesía. Taken from Canellada, M. J. & J. K. Madsen's Pronunciación del español (1987), Editorial Castalia: Madrid (pp. 10, 50-2).


Chechen diphthongs and semivowel+vowel combinations and nasalisation and length are actually all phonemically considered vowels AFAIK
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Drydic »

Darkgamma wrote:
Serafín wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:Diphthongs, monophthongs, nasalised varieties of everything, semivowel+vowel that behave as if a diphthong, and a length distinction on all of them.
And, my bad, it's actually 56 = 14*2*2
Meh. If you put it that way, even Spanish would have 33 vowels*, without counting nasalized allophones, and without counting stress (which is basically some combination of length and then tone/intonation).

*piso, peso, paso, poso, puso, pie, vio, cordial, viuda, luego, vacuo, cuando, ruido, rey, hoy, aire, muy, Europa, bou, aura, lidiáis, lidiéis, dioico, miau, Paraguay, buey, guau, realeza, coagular, maestranza, tahonero, férreo, poesía. Taken from Canellada, M. J. & J. K. Madsen's Pronunciación del español (1987), Editorial Castalia: Madrid (pp. 10, 50-2).


Chechen diphthongs and semivowel+vowel combinations and nasalisation and length are actually all phonemically considered vowels AFAIK

[citation needed]
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Nortaneous »

Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Drydic Guy wrote:[citation needed]


NINJA'D
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Drydic »

Darkgamma wrote:
Drydic Guy wrote:[citation needed]


NINJA'D

Give it up junior. Nort's source says there's 20 vowels. And Wikipedia says 22, or 44 counting nasalization as phonemic. A largish number to be sure, but still short of your 56/66.
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Drydic Guy wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
Drydic Guy wrote:[citation needed]


NINJA'D

Give it up junior. Nort's source says there's 20 vowels. And Wikipedia says 22, or 44 counting nasalization as phonemic. A largish number to be sure, but still short of your 56/66.

I was writing when I was ninja'd.

The analysis on Wikipedia seems to be of northern Chechen. Southern Chechen has an extra length on diphthongs and semivowel+vowel combinations.
14 vowels * 2 levels of length * binary nasal value = 56 vowels.
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Acid Badger »

Darkgamma wrote:
Drydic Guy wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
Drydic Guy wrote:[citation needed]


NINJA'D

Give it up junior. Nort's source says there's 20 vowels. And Wikipedia says 22, or 44 counting nasalization as phonemic. A largish number to be sure, but still short of your 56/66.

I was writing when I was ninja'd.

The analysis on Wikipedia seems to be of northern Chechen. Southern Chechen has an extra length on diphthongs and semivowel+vowel combinations.
14 vowels * 2 levels of length * binary nasal value = 56 vowels.

I would still be interested in an actual source though. Throwing in random numbers is no source, and I doubt you've got a doctor's degree in Chechen dialects, so.
Last edited by Acid Badger on Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by finlay »

Nortaneous wrote:
Avo wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Nah, they don't have creaky-voiced implosives or vowel systems with more phonations than POAs. :P


There is a Chechen dialect that has 66 vowels. Care to reconsider your evaluation :D ?

I'd love to see a source for this

I'd bet that figure includes diphthongs, nasals, and semivowel+vowel sequences.

As it well should, really.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Drydic »

finlay wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Avo wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Nah, they don't have creaky-voiced implosives or vowel systems with more phonations than POAs. :P


There is a Chechen dialect that has 66 vowels. Care to reconsider your evaluation :D ?

I'd love to see a source for this

I'd bet that figure includes diphthongs, nasals, and semivowel+vowel sequences.

As it well should, really.

Eh, it depends. Can you analyze nasal vowels as V + (some) N? This needs to be answered before you can count nasal vowels as phonemic (and no I don't mean that stuff like [en] vs [ẽn] being analyzed as /en/ vs /enn/ {or vice versa}, that's just stupid).
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by finlay »

Diphthongs are always unfairly not included, especially when people make charts comparing different languages. Like I've seen analyses of Mandarin which imply that it has the very unusual 5-vowel system /i y u ɤ a/, which completely ignores its many diphthongs, and the fact that Mandarin is usually analysed as onset+rhyme rather than consonant+vowel+consonant.

Or there's a gajillion charts of English which ignore /eɪ oʊ/ because they're diphthongs. I dunno, it annoys me is all, I guess.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Drydic »

finlay wrote:Diphthongs are always unfairly not included, especially when people make charts comparing different languages. Like I've seen analyses of Mandarin which imply that it has the very unusual 5-vowel system /i y u ɤ a/, which completely ignores its many diphthongs, and the fact that Mandarin is usually analysed as onset+rhyme rather than consonant+vowel+consonant.

Or there's a gajillion charts of English which ignore /eɪ oʊ/ because they're diphthongs. I dunno, it annoys me is all, I guess.

I don't disagree about diphthongs. I was more intent on the nasal issue, and also I'm a bit wary of analyzing EVERY glide-vowel/vowel-glide sequence as a diphthong. But I haven't looked at the language, so I guess these are just my starting points.
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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Nortaneous »

This analysis includes length, but says nasality isn't phonemic.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Ser »

finlay wrote:Or there's a gajillion charts of English which ignore /eɪ oʊ/ because they're diphthongs. I dunno, it annoys me is all, I guess.
Made even worse since /i/ and /u/ are very often diphthongs too (in GA and RP at least they are...).

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Bob Johnson »

Serafín wrote:Made even worse since /i/ and /u/ are very often diphthongs too (in GA
No.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Ser »

Bob Johnson wrote:
Serafín wrote:Made even worse since /i/ and /u/ are very often diphthongs too (in GA
No.
Hmm, Canepari for instance describes them that way, though I could find better sources. :wink:

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Nortaneous »

Maybe not in GA, but IMD /i/ is commonly [ɨi̯] and /u/ is something like [ɪʊ̯] after coronals. (And I have less diphthongization of /u/ than most other people from around here.)
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by finlay »

Serafín wrote:
Bob Johnson wrote:
Serafín wrote:Made even worse since /i/ and /u/ are very often diphthongs too (in GA
No.
Hmm, Canepari for instance describes them that way, though I could find better sources. :wink:

I wouldn't trust Canepari as a source.... but I'm fairly sure this is true, to the point where if I hear a pure monophthong /i/ or /u/ I think the person is either Scottish or South African.

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Ser »

finlay wrote:but I'm fairly sure this is true, to the point where if I hear a pure monophthong /i/ or /u/ I think the person is either Scottish or South African.
...Or a somebody with Spanish as their L1. :P

From my observations asking local natives (making the repeat a monosyllable like "me", "cue"), it seems pretty clear to me they have diphthongs, even more so with /u/, which has some observable ongoing rounding as the vowel is pronounced. I'm not sure if they'd let me record a video though... (but I'm seriously contemplating it).

Why don't some American users here make a recording?

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Re: The Lesser-Used Sounds

Post by Whimemsz »

A number already have (though of a text rather than one instance of /i/ or /u/): http://www.kneequickie.com/kq/Voices_of_the_ZBB
(dear God, I need to remove all those horrible comments there I wrote years ago...)

And diphthongization of /i/ and /u/ is definitely common in GA (as you say, it seems particularly evident with /u/, maybe because the onset tends to be very fronted for a lot of speakers?)







[also, attn: my Spanish pronunciation has totally mejorado since then, for reals]



EDIT: You know what, on reconsideration, I have to say that my commentary on the Tatapyranga and Xeon recordings weren't completely awful.

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