Words you love because of their sounds

[finlay]

Finlay, use the "Paris = /pa'ri/" example: you're a tourist in France and you speak some French but with a very heavy American English accent. Saying /ɛdɪnbərg/ is like asking someone for directions to ['pʰeɪɹɪs] instead of [pʰə'ɹij].

You mean, wrong? If you're speaking french, there is absolutely no excuse to pronounce it with the final s. This is obvious. Saying /ɛdɪnbərg/ for this city (I realise that there are a few cities in the US named after this city that use a different pronunciation) is absolutely and unequivocably wrong. You are welcome to pronounce it that way as long as you recognise this fact, and as long as you expect to be corrected/mocked for it.

[Whimemsz]

Finlay, use the "Paris = /pa'ri/" example: you're a tourist in France and you speak some French but with a very heavy American English accent. Saying /ɛdɪnbərg/ is like asking someone for directions to ['pʰeɪɹɪs] instead of [pʰə'ɹij].

You mean, wrong? If you're speaking french, there is absolutely no excuse to pronounce it with the final s. This is obvious. Saying /ɛdɪnbərg/ for this city (I realise that there are a few cities in the US named after this city that use a different pronunciation) is absolutely and unequivocably wrong. You are welcome to pronounce it that way as long as you recognise this fact, and as long as you expect to be corrected/mocked for it.

Yes, I mean "wrong". I was agreeing with you. I was referring back to Travis' use of /perɪs/~/pari/ as equivalent to /ɛdɪnbərg/~/ɛdɪnbərə/, and noting that it wasn't really equivalent at all, if you're speaking French rather than English! I should have made that clearer, sorry.

[Travis B.]

Consider it this way - placenames may very well have different pronunciations in different dialects of English.

To use another example, people in Chicago call their city /ʃɪˈkaɡo/ > something like [ʃɨˈkʰaːɡo(ː)] or [ʃɨˈkʰaːɡoʊ̯], while my own dialect calls the very same city /ʃɪˈkɒɡo/ > [ʃɨˈkʰɒːɡo(ː)].

I could call it */ʃɪˈkaɡo/ > *[ʃɨˈkʰɑːɡo(ː)], but that simply is not how Chicago is pronounced in my dialect.

Actually, I am used to there being a good amount of variation in placename pronunciations back home, along similar lines, where there would be marked variations in how particular placenames were pronounced depending on just what exact dialect an individual spoke. Particular examples that stick out to me are Racine, with /rəˈsin/ in some dialects and /reˈsin/ in others, and Waukesha, with /ˈwɒkɪˌʃɒ/ in most dialects but /wɒˈkiʃə/ in some others.

Clearly, if placename pronunciation may vary even in closely clustered dialects, then surely it is not surprising one bit that it may vary significantly in different dialect continuums separated by an ocean, more than two hundred years, and significantly different histories since separating.

Now, were I now to start calling Edinburgh back home the most closely nativized version I can think of of its proper name, /ˈɜdɪnbərə/ > [ˈɜːɾɨ̃ːnb̥ʁ̩ˤːʁˤə(ː)], I would probably be no less mocked by people in Milwaukee thank I would be were I to say /ˈɜdɪnˌbərɡ/ > [ˈɜːɾɨ̃ːnˌb̥ʁ̩ˤːɡ̊]~[ˈɜːdn̩ːˌb̥ʁ̩ˤːɡ̊]~[ˈɜ̃̂ːɨ̯̃nˌb̥ʁ̩ˤːɡ̊]~[ˈɜ̂ːnːˌb̥ʁ̩ˤːɡ̊] to people over in Edinburgh.

Of course, it would be because I would be using some "weird foreign pronunciation" of Edinburgh in trying to sound all "correct" or whatnot, rather than using the normal pronunciation of Edinburgh in any dialect spoken over here. It is exactly as if I were to start calling Paris, while speaking to English-speakers over here, /paˈri/ > [pʰɑːˈʁˤi(ː)], instead of /ˈperɪs/ > [ˈpʰɛ̝ːʁˤɨs], which sounds like some horrible affected attempt to sound like how Paris is pronounced in French rather than pronouncing it as expected in the English here.

[Ouagadougou]

I suppose that would be tantamount to pronouncing "Warsaw" the Polish way. English, especially for older borrowings, likes to pronounce things by its own orthographic system, and not those of the source languages.

[finlay]

..... what?

It's not like that at all. /ɛdɪnbʌrə/ is the usual way of transcribing the city's name (although the ʌ and ə are usually the same vowel quality, and the ʌ can be omitted) in English. Pronouncing it with /bərg/ simply isn't the correct pronunciation in English. It's nothing to do with borrowing – the source language is English.

[Travis B.]

..... what?

It's not like that at all. /ɛdɪnbʌrə/ is the usual way of transcribing the city's name (although the ʌ and ə are usually the same vowel quality, and the ʌ can be omitted) in English. Pronouncing it with /bərg/ simply isn't the correct pronunciation in English. It's nothing to do with borrowing – the source language is English.

You are making the mistake of thinking that English is a monolithic whole, at least with placenames, that placenames cannot differ in pronunciation or form in different varieties of English, and that they apply universalistically.

Hell, at least here in the US, we have whole states whose names can differ in pronunciation (beyond mere differences in phonologically) in different varieties of English over here. Offhand I can think of Oregon, Nevada, Colorado, and Illinois at least applying there. There are more that clearly change if you allow phonological differences into things, such as Florida and Louisiana...

[Rui]

Hell, at least here in the US, we have whole states whose names can differ in pronunciation (beyond mere differences in phonologically) in different varieties of English over here. Offhand I can think of Oregon, Nevada, Colorado, and Illinois at least applying there. There are more that clearly change if you allow phonological differences into things, such as Florida and Louisiana...

Also [u̯skænsɪn]

(yes, that was humorous, and in no way intended to accurately portray the Wisconsin accent)

[Travis B.]

I actually have /wɪˈskansɪn/ > [wɨˈskãntsɨ̃(ː)n], but things akin to /wɪsˈkansɪn/ > [wɨsˈkʰãntsɨ̃(ː)n] can often be heard in more conservative speech (e.g. my dad has something like this).

[faiuwle]

FWIW, I grew up in America, and speak GenAm, and I've only ever heard it as /ɛdɪnbɚɹo/ (or thereabouts), and there's nothing remotely British about how it's realized. If there are cities with identically-spelled names which are pronounced /ɛdɪnbɚg/, well, fine, they are different cities, and it is entirely possible that they have different names which happen to be spelled the same way as /ɛdɪnbɚɹo/'s. As far as Oregon, Colorado, Nevada, and Florida are concerned, I can think of a few slightly different pronunciations that all exist in free variation - I haven't really noticed them falling along dialect lines. This is not terribly special, I don't think.

[finlay]

FWIW, I grew up in America, and speak GenAm, and I've only ever heard it as /ɛdɪnbɚɹo/ (or thereabouts), and there's nothing remotely British about how it's realized.

See, that's fine, that's just pronouncing it with an accent. But I agree, if there's a city pronounced /ɛdɪnbərg/, it ain't here.

[Bob Johnson]

You are making the mistake of thinking that English is a monolithic whole

no, you're making the mistake of thinking that Los Angeles is [lɑs æŋ.gl̩z], Houston (the city) is [haʊstən] or [hoʊstən] or [huːstən], Illinois is [ɪ.lɪ.no.ɪs] and Michigan is [mɪtʃ.ɪ.ɡən] because you've never been to any of them

[Travis B.]

You are making the mistake of thinking that English is a monolithic whole

no, you're making the mistake of thinking that Los Angeles is [lɑs æŋ.gl̩z], Houston (the city) is [haʊstən] or [hoʊstən] or [huːstən], Illinois is [ɪ.lɪ.no.ɪs] and Michigan is [mɪtʃ.ɪ.ɡən] because you've never been to any of them

You might have an argument in the case of individuals' isolated spelling pronunciations.

That argument does not work when you have entire dialect continuums or substantial portions thereof that happen to share the same "mispronunciation".

[faiuwle]

But I don't think you have that.

[----]

ɑɹkʰænzɨs

[Bob Johnson]

That argument does not work when you have entire dialect continuums or substantial portions thereof that happen to share the same "mispronunciation".

your family is not an entire dialect

god, the "i can pronounce this any way I want because nothing is wrong ever nyah nyah nyah" crowd is really getting on my nerves

get over your teenage rebellion urge already

ɑɹkʰænzɨs

oops, missed one

[Travis B.]

That argument does not work when you have entire dialect continuums or substantial portions thereof that happen to share the same "mispronunciation".

your family is not an entire dialect

Not my family (I cannot remember anyone else in my family ever saying Edinburgh) but the pronunciation I had been used to anyone using in English until relatively recently, and then it was still anyone using in North American English - to which there apparently are exceptions, but that does not affect my point.

Pronouncing Edinburgh with -/bərg/ is not my personal spelling pronunciation. It is how Edinburgh is normally pronounced in at least good portions of North American English. It is the only pronunciation of Edinburgh I have ever heard anyone say out loud in Real Life.

So to say "oh, that's wrong, you're supposed to pronounce it this way" is an affront to how I and many others speak our native language. It is as if you started telling us that "you're pronouncing it wrong" whenever we pronounced the word aluminum how we normally, natively do.

god, the "i can pronounce this any way I want because nothing is wrong ever nyah nyah nyah" crowd is really getting on my nerves

I see you are in the prescriptivist camp then. Then I would say that what you have to say here is not credible in the first place.

get over your teenage rebellion urge already

Heh. It is not "teenage rebellion". It is being told that how you natively speak your native language and are used to your native language being spoken by others is wrong and that you ought to change it to some foreign pronunciation you have never actually heard spoken but which you have read is supposedly "correct". So of course the natural reaction is not to go and say "oh, I am going to change how I speak now" - no, it is to start digging in and to be only increasingly intransigent the more you are told you are wrong.

ɑɹkʰænzɨs

oops, missed one

I knew there were more but did not feel like being exhaustive.

[finlay]

That argument does not work when you have entire dialect continuums or substantial portions thereof that happen to share the same "mispronunciation".

your family is not an entire dialect

Not my family (I cannot remember anyone else in my family ever saying Edinburgh) but the pronunciation I had been used to anyone using in English until relatively recently, and then it was still anyone using in North American English - to which there apparently are exceptions, but that does not affect my point.

Pronouncing Edinburgh with -/bərg/ is not my personal spelling pronunciation. It is how Edinburgh is normally pronounced in at least good portions of North American English. It is the only pronunciation of Edinburgh I have ever heard anyone say out loud in Real Life.

So to say "oh, that's wrong, you're supposed to pronounce it this way" is an affront to how I and many others speak our native language. It is as if you started telling us that "you're pronouncing it wrong" whenever we pronounced the word aluminum how we normally, natively do.

You are pronouncing it wrong, though. There are plenty of American cities (mostly small and insignificant, mind) named Edinburgh or Edinburg and it's fine to pronounce them with /bərg/. If you pronounce it with /bərg/ and you are referring to the capital of Scotland, you come across as ignorant.

(It doesn't help that the genuine pronunciation in many other languages is with something like /burg/, like French Édimbourg, Spanish Edimburgo, German Edinburg (and of course, this is a big annoyance when I'm teaching ESL here). But you don't have that excuse, because you don't speak another language, so it comes down to being wilfully ignorant. It's an "affront" to my ears to hear the city pronounced wrongly.)

I see you are in the prescriptivist camp then. Then I would say that what you have to say here is not credible in the first place.

Oh, shut up already. It's not a case of being in two camps. It's not a case of saying that the """"descriptivist camp"""" is the only """"camp"""" allowed on the ZBB. Sometimes you really do pronounce things wrong! Sometimes even if something is said by a large group of native speakers, it carries further connotations, and in this case, the connotation of pronouncing the capital of Scotland as /ɛdɪnbərg/ is one of ignorance. Fucking accept it and move on.

[Drydic]

That argument does not work when you have entire dialect continuums or substantial portions thereof that happen to share the same "mispronunciation".

your family is not an entire dialect

Not my family (I cannot remember anyone else in my family ever saying Edinburgh) but the pronunciation I had been used to anyone using in English until relatively recently, and then it was still anyone using in North American English - to which there apparently are exceptions, but that does not affect my point.

Pronouncing Edinburgh with -/bərg/ is not my personal spelling pronunciation. It is how Edinburgh is normally pronounced in at least good portions of North American English. It is the only pronunciation of Edinburgh I have ever heard anyone say out loud in Real Life.

So to say "oh, that's wrong, you're supposed to pronounce it this way" is an affront to how I and many others speak our native language. It is as if you started telling us that "you're pronouncing it wrong" whenever we pronounced the word aluminum how we normally, natively do.

You are pronouncing it wrong, though. There are plenty of American cities (mostly small and insignificant, mind) named Edinburgh or Edinburg and it's fine to pronounce them with /bərg/. If you pronounce it with /bərg/ and you are referring to the capital of Scotland, you come across as ignorant.

(It doesn't help that the genuine pronunciation in many other languages is with something like /burg/, like French Édimbourg, Spanish Edimburgo, German Edinburg (and of course, this is a big annoyance when I'm teaching ESL here). But you don't have that excuse, because you don't speak another language, so it comes down to being wilfully ignorant. It's an "affront" to my ears to hear the city pronounced wrongly.)

I see you are in the prescriptivist camp then. Then I would say that what you have to say here is not credible in the first place.

Oh, shut up already. It's not a case of being in two camps. It's not a case of saying that the """"descriptivist camp"""" is the only """"camp"""" allowed on the ZBB. Sometimes you really do pronounce things wrong! Sometimes even if something is said by a large group of native speakers, it carries further connotations, and in this case, the connotation of pronouncing the capital of Scotland as /ɛdɪnbərg/ is one of ignorance. Fucking accept it and move on.

This just in: dialects differ on pronunciations and are still valid as separate varieties! YOUR English is not MY English. Nor is it Travis' English. It's not ignorance to have a pronunciation difference. YOU need to fucking accept that and move on.

[finlay]

dialects differing on pronunciations doesn't preclude the concept of incorrect pronunciations.

[faiuwle]

I am not even convinced that this is a dialect difference. I can counter Travis's anecdotal evidence that no American he knows has ever said /b@ro/ with my own anecdotal evidence that no American I know has ever said /berg/. I think this probably has more to do with proximity to small American cities called Edinburgh than any kind of dialect difference.

[----]

I've never heard anyone talk about finlay's Edinburgh in real life.

[Herr Dunkel]

I've never heard anyone talk about finlay's Edinburgh in real life.

Do note that finlay's Edinburgh is also everybody else's Edinburgh.
And no, it's not Eddyburgh.

[ol bofosh]

superfluous

I think I like how it looks like super-fluous but is actually said supErfluos.

[derkins]

I (think I) have heard it pronounced both Edinburg and Edinburo.

I don't see how it matters much though, unless I'm actually talking to a Scottish person. It isn't a common topic like say, London, Paris, or Amsterdam.

[ol bofosh]

I pronounce it Edimbru ("u" for putt not put).