Sound Change Quickie Thread

[Jetboy]

The change would go: /t͡s d͡z t͡sˠ d͡zˠ t͡sʲ d͡zʲ/ > /t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ ʒ t͡x ɣ/, if that last one is even an actual affricate.

Nope.

I think /tsʲ dzʲ/ would rather result in either /tɕ ʑ/ or /tʃ ʒ/. But since you already have /tʃ ʒ/ from another source, I think /tɕ ʑ/ would quickly merge with them.

yeah, swap the palatalisation and velarisation and this would make sense. It looks to me like you've just got them back to front. /tx/ is plausible but i dunno if it's an "affricate".

Ah, oops, the result should have been /t͡s d͡z t͡x ɣ t͡ʃ ʒ/. But the larger part of my question would be if, going from that, it would be plausible for /t͡ʃ/ to assibilate to /ʃ/ while /t͡s/ and /t͡x/ remain as affricates.

[jmcd]

Heterorganic affricates such as /tx/ aren't just plausible, they're attested in multiple Native American languages.

[finlay]

i just meant i dunno whether they're called "affricates"

[CaesarVincens]

I'm trying to think of some interesting changes for palatalized consonants.

The beginning phonemes are
/p t k b d g/
/pp tt kk bb dd gg/
/pj tj kj bj dj gj/
/m n mj nj/
/s x sj xj/
/l r j w/

/ɪ eː e aː a oː o ʊ/

I've already decided to take /tj dj sj/ > /ʧ ʤ ʃ/. /nj/ might become /ɲ/ by analogy.

I'm thinking of having the voiceless long stops become aspirated and the voiced prenasalized, but I'm not sure what to do with palatalized labial and velar stops.

[Nortaneous]

I'm trying to think of some interesting changes for palatalized consonants.

You could do what Tsakonian did and shift them all to palatals.

[CaesarVincens]

So all of /pj bj tj dj kj gj/ would be come /ʧ ʤ/ or /c ɟ/?

[Jetboy]

Palatalized labials usually just reject the palatalization and become plain labials; when they don't, I think the most frequent outcome is for them to become dental. As for the velars, they would probably become palatal, though where they go from there varies; they could maybe end up as alveolar affricates or fricatives?

[äreo]

How about a change of /zʷu zʷy zʷi ʋu ʋy ʋi/ > /zʷ̩ zʷ̩ z̩ ʋ̩ ʋ̩ ʋ̩/?

[Nortaneous]

^ I don't see why not.

Palatalized labials usually just reject the palatalization and become plain labials; when they don't, I think the most frequent outcome is for them to become dental.

There's a lang somewhere that shifted them to linguolabials.

[sirdanilot]

I thought linguolabials had something to do with certain tribes that had the habit of removing front teeth...? They are, in any case, not common. Though it would be cool to have them in your lang and get away with it !

[ná'oolkiłí]

Similarly, I've read somewhere (I think in a description of Tlingit) that labialless inventories might be able to be traced back to the custom of wearing ornate lip jewelery.

[dhok]

Similarly, I've read somewhere (I think in a description of Tlingit) that labialless inventories might be able to be traced back to the custom of wearing ornate lip jewelery.

I take issue with that. Aren't there tribes in Papua New Guinea that also have ridiculous lip discs and stuff but still have /p b m/?

[roninbodhisattva]

Similarly, I've read somewhere (I think in a description of Tlingit) that labialless inventories might be able to be traced back to the custom of wearing ornate lip jewelery.

I take issue with that. Aren't there tribes in Papua New Guinea that also have ridiculous lip discs and stuff but still have /p b m/?

Yes. This kind of stuff has nothing to do with how a groups language evolves.

[Zaris]

What is a good way to incorporate [ɨ] into a language from a proto-language with the following vowel system?

Code: Select all

i               u
i˞              u˞
e̞      ə      o̞

        a
        a˞
                   

I was thinking something like [əi]>[ɨ]

[Jetboy]

What is a good way to incorporate [ɨ] into a language from a proto-language with the following vowel system?

Code: Select all

i               u
i˞              u˞
e̞      ə      o̞

        a
        a˞
                   

If the low vowel is more back, it could trigger a chain shift, pushing historic /u/ to /ʉ/, and /o/ to /u/; /ʉ/ could then unround to /ɨ/. However, this isn't exceedingly plausible, because there just aren't that many vowels; possibly there was originally a front low vowel, and the back low vowel would raise to /o/ and the front be pulled back to /a/? Maybe?

[Bob Johnson]

What is a good way to incorporate [ɨ] into a language from a proto-language with the following vowel system? [...] I was thinking something like [əi]>[ɨ]

/ə/ > [ɨ] in certain contexts would make sense, yes; stressed syllables, high tone, or separated from an /i/ by some single consonants (i.e., umlaut).

[ná'oolkiłí]

I take issue with that. Aren't there tribes in Papua New Guinea that also have ridiculous lip discs and stuff but still have /p b m/?

Didn't say that it was good or plausible explanation...

[roninbodhisattva]

I take issue with that. Aren't there tribes in Papua New Guinea that also have ridiculous lip discs and stuff but still have /p b m/?

Didn't say that it was good or plausible explanation...

Then...why...?

[TaylorS]

How about /pˤ/ > /qʷ/?

[roninbodhisattva]

What are the intermediate steps?

[Nortaneous]

I thought linguolabials had something to do with certain tribes that had the habit of removing front teeth...? They are, in any case, not common. Though it would be cool to have them in your lang and get away with it !

Interdentals, then?

[Qwynegold]

What is a good way to incorporate [ɨ] into a language from a proto-language with the following vowel system?

Code: Select all

i               u
i˞              u˞
e̞      ə      o̞

        a
        a˞
                   

I was thinking something like [əi]>[ɨ]

i˞ > ɨ˞ > ɨ

[TaylorS]

What are the intermediate steps?

None, really. The plosive MOA and the pharyngealization influence each other to give /q/ and the labial POA gives the labialization

[roninbodhisattva]

Any reason why...

i > e / s_

...couldn't be a really odd conditioned sound change?

[Bob Johnson]

Avoidance of /si/ → /ʃi/ for some reason? As in, they'd rather preserve the /s/ than the /i/. I'm more familiar with vowels causing consonants to change, though.

What other vowels do you have?