What do these languages have in common?

[Ser]

languages, we're only considering phonemic analyses of the vowels. I've read analyses of Spanish vowels that go for like 14 allophones for the monophthongs (and only the monophthongs!), but that wouldn't be useful here.

God! For which variety?

The standard Spanish of Spain, naturally. Actually, I've never seen any detailed work on vowel allophony for any other standard dialect...

[Thry]

The standard Spanish of Spain, naturally. Actually, I've never seen any detailed work on vowel allophony for any other standard dialect...

Not outrageous (well 14 seems quite high, but not entirely unbelievable). I must certainly have more than five vowels, since e.g. I don't say mierda and coche with the same sound, and then el niño and lo' niño' don't have the same final vowel at all.

Though this phenomenon with plurals doesn't happen in "standard" Castilian, it's more a thing of meridional dialects which drop final /s/s.

[Miekko]

It's called tact.

This thing called tact is surprisingly often used as an excuse not to have to think or learn or even invest any kind of intellectual integrity into what one's writing though. That's something we like to rid ourselves of here, and tact is often collateral damage - mostly because it so often shields the offenders.

[Imralu]

I think I was perfectly tactful ... there were rainbow colours and a dinosaur.
If not, sorry.

[Bob Johnson]

it's actually "don't bite the newbie"

[clawgrip]

It's called tact.

This thing called tact is surprisingly often used as an excuse not to have to think or learn or even invest any kind of intellectual integrity into what one's writing though. That's something we like to rid ourselves of here, and tact is often collateral damage - mostly because it so often shields the offenders.

I'm not sure who uses tact as an excuse not to learn, but even if you consider it an offense that someone (who is not a native speaker of English) didn't realize the discussion was about phonemes rather than allophones, it's still possible to correct them without making fun of them.

I think I was perfectly tactful ... there were rainbow colours and a dinosaur.
If not, sorry.

To be honest I was kind of impressed that you found an allosaurus that big with transparency.

[Bob Johnson]

Who uses tact as an excuse not to learn? Even if you consider it an offense that someone didn't realize the discussion was about phonemes rather than allophones, it's still possible to correct them without making fun of them.

Certain people here are too lazy to read the thread they're responding to, use google or wikipedia, or think on their own in genneral. Spoonfeeding them answers results in them not learning anything, much as memorizing answers for a test during a cram session won't help for the next test. Forcing them to recognize the answer right in front of their eyes or available a few keystrokes away is seen as "tactless."

[clawgrip]

Okay, well I don't know the poster in question so I don't know if this person was being lazy or just made a mistake.

[Whimemsz]

It's called tact.

This thing called tact is surprisingly often used as an excuse not to have to think or learn or even invest any kind of intellectual integrity into what one's writing though. That's something we like to rid ourselves of here, and tact is often collateral damage - mostly because it so often shields the offenders.

How was Imralu's response a reflection of this, though? I don't have a problem with saying "you're wrong," but the whole "bolding a word multiple times and posting dumb pictures" internet meme doesn't actually accomplish anything other than being obnoxious. Compare it to Sinjana's response, which briefly and clearly explained to Yuuri what was wrong with his/her proposal, and gave an example to illustrate the point. When the person you're correcting hasn't made a habit of being stupidly wrong and their wrongness is not particularly egregious and they're not being a dick, there's no reason to ignore ""tact"" (in the sense of not being a dick to them - i.e., following the basic guidelines of interpersonal interaction) in your response. I mean, "tact" (in the sense of purposefully going out of your way to avoid hurting anyone's Poor Fragile Feelings) is silly, but "tact" in the sense clawgrip seems to have intended it (avoiding being a dick to random people) seems reasonable!



[NB: Goodness knows I don't always follow this advice [because my misanthropy and dickishness and rashness and bursts of being a moron often shine through], but hopefully it doesn't detract too much from my point. Also, I seriously doubt Imralu was actually intending to be a dick, given what I know of him -- but it would be easy to interpret it that way, that whole bolding-increasing size meme really bugs me, and this is partly a response to the general philosophy of Miekko's post rather than purely to the exact situation at hand]

[Bob Johnson]

Okay, well I don't know the poster in question so I don't know if this person was being lazy or just made a mistake.

The original mistake was by a newbie, so the rule that applies first is "don't bite the newbies." So we assume it's just a harmless mistake, correct on it, and move on. You were in the right here.

If it were an oldbie though, the rule is "if you're going to be an ass, you'd better be right." Cue drama if the victim is prone to temper tantrums. This facet of the culture here is why ZBB gets a reputation of being full of assholes.

[Thry]

Maybe the ZBB has that rep because it's (partially?) true.

...internet meme doesn't actually accomplish anything other than being obnoxious

It's funny as well, be it the case or not that you find it so (I'm not attempting to justify anything, just pointing out that fact).

But TBH I don't think this particular instance is that bad. Has the person in question actually felt offended?

[Imralu]

Also, I seriously doubt Imralu was actually intending to be a dick, given what I know of him -- but it would be easy to interpret it that way,

Thanks for your faith in me. You're right. I just about never intend to be a dick. I usually come across as dickish because something flashes through my head, usually something that I think is funny, and I blurt it out or act on it without thinking about the consequences. Usually no one else even thinks its funny anyway, so I may as well just laugh at the thought in my head and be done with it.

I didn't even look and see that it was a newbie, to be honest. Sorry, Yuuri. No offence meant.

This morning, without thinking, I commented on my boyfriend's friend's unusual lack of an anti-helix in his right pinna (although I didn't know the word anti-helix until now so I just said "Hey, your ear doesn't have this fold" *touches own anti-helix*), which I had never noticed before and I just think is interesting. Guess who was bullied for having sticky-outy ears (an entirely different thing from what I was talking about) and is sensitive about his ears. Oops.

[Whimemsz]

Maybe the ZBB has that rep because it's (partially?) true.

...internet meme doesn't actually accomplish anything other than being obnoxious

It's funny as well, be it the case or not that you find it so (I'm not attempting to justify anything, just pointing out that fact).

Okay, you've got me there. This one was pretty funny (dinosaurs make everything better!). I probably overstated my objection [though I as noted, much of my post was intended as more of a theoretical thing than actually commenting on this specific instance].

[Ser]

The standard Spanish of Spain, naturally. Actually, I've never seen any detailed work on vowel allophony for any other standard dialect...

Not outrageous (well 14 seems quite high, but not entirely unbelievable). I must certainly have more than five vowels, since e.g. I don't say mierda and coche with the same sound, and then el niño and lo' niño' don't have the same final vowel at all.

Though this phenomenon with plurals doesn't happen in "standard" Castilian, it's more a thing of meridional dialects which drop final /s/s.

No, I'm really talking about standard Castilian, not dialects where final /s/ is dropped leaving different vowel qualities.

The source I'm talking about (which is still also widely quoted to this day, much to my dismay) presented four allophones for /a/. I'll just leave you with that thought.

[Thry]

No, I'm really talking about standard Castilian, not dialects where final /s/ is dropped leaving different vowel qualities.

The source I'm talking about (which is still also widely quoted to this day, much to my dismay) presented four allophones for /a/. I'll just leave you with that thought.

oh, lol. xD

[tezcatlip0ca]

I analyze my (Mexican) Spanish with 23 vowels: three /a/ allophones, eight /e/ allophones, three /i/s, seven /o/s, and two /u/s. I can't record anything at the moment (too noisy), but I'll definitely give you evidence sometime.

As for my English, I still haven't finished the phonological/phonetic description of my idiolect. I have enumerated over 70 vocalic allophones, all with the environments in which they occur, but some details still elude me, like the exact conditions for my /ɹ/ and /l/ allophones...

[Bob Johnson]

only 70? does that include crying, whispering, shouting, and falsetto?

[Herr Dunkel]

I analyze my (Mexican) Spanish with 23 vowels: three /a/ allophones, eight /e/ allophones, three /i/s, seven /o/s, and two /u/s. I can't record anything at the moment (too noisy), but I'll definitely give you evidence sometime.

As for my English, I still haven't finished the phonological/phonetic description of my idiolect. I have enumerated over 70 vocalic allophones, all with the environments in which they occur, but some details still elude me, like the exact conditions for my /ɹ/ and /l/ allophones...

LOL
INTO THE QUOTE THREAD

[finlay]

I analyze my (Mexican) Spanish with 23 vowels: three /a/ allophones, eight /e/ allophones, three /i/s, seven /o/s, and two /u/s. I can't record anything at the moment (too noisy), but I'll definitely give you evidence sometime.

As for my English, I still haven't finished the phonological/phonetic description of my idiolect. I have enumerated over 70 vocalic allophones, all with the environments in which they occur, but some details still elude me, like the exact conditions for my /ɹ/ and /l/ allophones...

Let's just say you're making a mistake if you think allophones are something you can enumerate and leave it at that...

[tezcatlip0ca]

And no, the seventy allophones only include regular speech. Damn canIPA. And damn the phonetic system I made up at age 6. Whatever they have done to my brain is completely irreversible. And that goes in the quote thread too.

[Torco]

And no, the seventy allophones only include regular speech. Damn canIPA. And damn the phonetic system I made up at age 6. Whatever they have done to my brain is completely irreversible. And that goes in the quote thread too.

oh, that's right, you were the guy who detected a thousand different vowel qualities without breaking a sweat. coolio
Really? 23 allophones in castellano de méxico ? might I inquire which ones?

[Ser]

I analyze my (Mexican) Spanish with 23 vowels: three /a/ allophones, eight /e/ allophones, three /i/s, seven /o/s, and two /u/s. I can't record anything at the moment (too noisy), but I'll definitely give you evidence sometime.

As for my English, I still haven't finished the phonological/phonetic description of my idiolect. I have enumerated over 70 vocalic allophones, all with the environments in which they occur, but some details still elude me, like the exact conditions for my /ɹ/ and /l/ allophones...

Let's just say you're making a mistake if you think allophones are something you can enumerate and leave it at that...

Yeah, now tell that to certain Spanish phoneticians... And Canepari...