The Bulgarian Thread
- zmeiat_joro
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The Bulgarian Thread
Oric expressed interest in a Bulgarian thread, with the purpose of teaching Bulgarian. As I am not much good for anything else around here, I thought why not
Io, you might want to help out. Or not. Anyway, I'll start writing soon. I hope there will be t least some interest
Io, you might want to help out. Or not. Anyway, I'll start writing soon. I hope there will be t least some interest
<WurdBendur> Nae, why are you trying to sterilize maggot eggs?
I have some questions:
Which Slavonic language is closest related to Bulgarian?
What does Bulgarian have instead of all those case endings? Prepositions?
Any archaic forms/idiomatic expressions with retained case endings?
Are there any specific words that Bulgarians consider to be representative for themselves and their state of mind or mood? Well, from your point of view at least
Which Slavonic language is closest related to Bulgarian?
What does Bulgarian have instead of all those case endings? Prepositions?
Any archaic forms/idiomatic expressions with retained case endings?
Are there any specific words that Bulgarians consider to be representative for themselves and their state of mind or mood? Well, from your point of view at least
Perhaps eventually all languages will evolve so that they include some clicks among their consonants – Peter Ladefoged
Jahai: /kpotkpɛt/ ‘the feeling of waking up to the sound of munching’
Jahai: /kpotkpɛt/ ‘the feeling of waking up to the sound of munching’
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a) Well, if you count conlangs for languages than Macedonian is the closest.
b) Yes, prepositions.
c) Cases:
? farewell = сбогом, с/with + богом/god (I think the case is gennitive);
? with body & soul = телом и духом;
? most pockets of resistance can b found in teh pronouns. dative, accusative 'n' gennitive are all live & well.
d) Noriega, can you elaborate more on that? I can't think of anything of my head at the mo'.
b) Yes, prepositions.
c) Cases:
? farewell = сбогом, с/with + богом/god (I think the case is gennitive);
? with body & soul = телом и духом;
? most pockets of resistance can b found in teh pronouns. dative, accusative 'n' gennitive are all live & well.
d) Noriega, can you elaborate more on that? I can't think of anything of my head at the mo'.
<King> Ivo, you phrase things in the most comedic manner
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]
- zmeiat_joro
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I descided to do a quick phonology giude, before I got to the things that actually require thinking
Phonology
/A, @\, O, u, E, i/, /r, l, m, n, j/, /b, v, d_d, z, dz, Z, dZ, g/ and voiceless counterparts, and /x/.
* tip of the tongue at the lower teeth, the friction occurs somewhete between the upper teeth and the alveolar ridge.
** alveolar before front vowels and when palatalized, otherwise dental.
Consonants can be palatalised (phonemically) when they're followed by back vowels. Postalveolars (ж, ш, дж, ч) can't be palatalized. Velars (г, к, х) are alophonically palatalized when followed by front vowels.
There is regressive voicing assimilation. That means the voicing of the last consonant in a cluster determines whether the presceding ones are pronounced voiced or voiceless. For purposes of determinig whether a cluster is voiced or devoiced, the sonorants р, л, м, н and й (/r, l, m, n, j/) are not considered part of the cluster. Neither is в (/v/). Also, final voiced consonants are devoiced. Examples: всичко [фсичко], град [грат], сватба [свадба], but какво [какво], not *[кагво]. (vsichko [fsitSko], grad [grat], svatba [svadba], but kakvo [kakvo], not *[kagvo].)
Vowel reduction - vowels reduce in the pairs а-ъ е-и о-у (/A/-/@\/, /E/-/i/, /O/-/u/) by moving towards each other in unstressed position. Only the а-ъ (/A/-/@\/ pair gets fully identical in unstresed position, е-и (/E/-/i/) reduces only slightly, о-у (/O/-/u/) moderately. That of course applies to the standart langauge, dialect can differ not only in the degree to which they reduce each of these pairs, but even in the number of phonemic vowels.
Orthography Notes
Besides the letters already used, the rest are щ - [шт], я - [jа], ю - [jу], ь - palatalization of presceding consonant - found only before o.
a and я can sometimes stand for [ъ] or [jъ], respectively - usually word-finally. (I will list all instances of this later - they're relatively few/perdictable). The purpose of this was to avoid confusion with the old spelling - the final ъ's and ь's that were dropped with the last spelling reform were silent.
Phonology
Code: Select all
front back bil lbd dnt alv pav pal vel
и | у stops б,п д,т г,к
| frics в,ф з,с* ж,ш -,х
|ъ affr. дз,ц* дж,ч
е | о nasals м н
| lat.apr л**
|а р й
* tip of the tongue at the lower teeth, the friction occurs somewhete between the upper teeth and the alveolar ridge.
** alveolar before front vowels and when palatalized, otherwise dental.
Consonants can be palatalised (phonemically) when they're followed by back vowels. Postalveolars (ж, ш, дж, ч) can't be palatalized. Velars (г, к, х) are alophonically palatalized when followed by front vowels.
There is regressive voicing assimilation. That means the voicing of the last consonant in a cluster determines whether the presceding ones are pronounced voiced or voiceless. For purposes of determinig whether a cluster is voiced or devoiced, the sonorants р, л, м, н and й (/r, l, m, n, j/) are not considered part of the cluster. Neither is в (/v/). Also, final voiced consonants are devoiced. Examples: всичко [фсичко], град [грат], сватба [свадба], but какво [какво], not *[кагво]. (vsichko [fsitSko], grad [grat], svatba [svadba], but kakvo [kakvo], not *[kagvo].)
Vowel reduction - vowels reduce in the pairs а-ъ е-и о-у (/A/-/@\/, /E/-/i/, /O/-/u/) by moving towards each other in unstressed position. Only the а-ъ (/A/-/@\/ pair gets fully identical in unstresed position, е-и (/E/-/i/) reduces only slightly, о-у (/O/-/u/) moderately. That of course applies to the standart langauge, dialect can differ not only in the degree to which they reduce each of these pairs, but even in the number of phonemic vowels.
Orthography Notes
Besides the letters already used, the rest are щ - [шт], я - [jа], ю - [jу], ь - palatalization of presceding consonant - found only before o.
a and я can sometimes stand for [ъ] or [jъ], respectively - usually word-finally. (I will list all instances of this later - they're relatively few/perdictable). The purpose of this was to avoid confusion with the old spelling - the final ъ's and ь's that were dropped with the last spelling reform were silent.
Last edited by zmeiat_joro on Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
<WurdBendur> Nae, why are you trying to sterilize maggot eggs?
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Besides Io's, also вкъщи - at home, home(as an adverb).Noriega wrote:Any archaic forms/idiomatic expressions with retained case endings?
Good question You're asking about something that's hard to translate, I reckon? Maybe инат? Io, what do you thinkNoriega wrote:Are there any specific words that Bulgarians consider to be representative for themselves and their state of mind or mood? Well, from your point of view at least
Btw, as for cases, Vocative is alive and well, although some very annoying people sometimes don't use it. A paralel to Russian - it, like about half of the Slav languages lost that case, but has recently been developing a new vocative.
<WurdBendur> Nae, why are you trying to sterilize maggot eggs?
Ah, Bulgarian.
Only thing I know about it is that I got flamed once on a Harry Potter board for correcting someone who thought they spoke German in Bulgaria.
Only thing I know about it is that I got flamed once on a Harry Potter board for correcting someone who thought they spoke German in Bulgaria.
[quote]Let us not look too closely at ourselves to see whether or not we have, in our untime, been successful. Turn your face from yourself; it is too late for that. I turn my face from you and I; let us look instead at how the ocean purrs.[/quote]
inat? what wrong with all the transations the SA dic gives?
ИНАТ
1. същ. obstinacy, stubborness, wilfulness, pigheadedness, mulishness, cussedness;
правя нещо на ИНАТ на някого do s.th. out of spite for s.o., do s.th. to spite s.o., do s.th. in defiance of s.o.;
2. прил. obstinate, stubborn. mulish, pigheaded, self-willed, wilful, refractory, obdurate;
ИНАТ като магаре as stubborn as a mule.
ИНАТ
1. същ. obstinacy, stubborness, wilfulness, pigheadedness, mulishness, cussedness;
правя нещо на ИНАТ на някого do s.th. out of spite for s.o., do s.th. to spite s.o., do s.th. in defiance of s.o.;
2. прил. obstinate, stubborn. mulish, pigheaded, self-willed, wilful, refractory, obdurate;
ИНАТ като магаре as stubborn as a mule.
Last edited by Io on Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
LOLOL
Ahribar, who the smart ass who said this? I've seen ppl mixing up bulgarians and romanians but this is ginormously moronic.
Ahribar, who the smart ass who said this? I've seen ppl mixing up bulgarians and romanians but this is ginormously moronic.
<King> Ivo, you phrase things in the most comedic manner
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]
- Space Dracula
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I hate to, but I think (since Zmeiat might not be too familiar with Trebor) I should restate that he's blind and uses a text reader.Trebor wrote:looks interesting, only thing is... i cant read cyrilic. could you provide latin-script equivalents, please?
<Dudicon> i would but you're too fat to fit in my mouth!!
I have recently decided at school, because there are a number of people to whom I neither wish to talk nor listen, that I am going to be speaking the majority of the time with an Slavic-ish Eastern European accent, pretending to be a foreign exchange student. I have actually been doing this for a while. This comes in handy when people come up to me, asking for money or gum. I just pretend that my English is not well enough to understand what they're asking me, and then after I incorrectly point out in broken English that they're asking me for directions to the Chemistry Lab, they get frusterated (sometimes upset) and leave me the hell alone.
In order to extend my escapades to greater levels, I have recently decided to produce a phony School ID (my school has these IDs we have to have when we go to dances, games, etc. I keep mine in my wallet) with my alias printed on it. As well as this, I would also like to produce a School ID from my fake school in Bulgaria. However, since I do not know much Bulgarian at all yet (I usually just make stuff up, take Russian and twist it around a little), and Bulgarian is definitely the direction I want to go with this, I need much help.
First off, my alias. I'd decided long ago that if I were Russian, I'd take my current name, /'sOijr\=/ and make into /sO'jEtski/ (Soyetski, or perhaps Sojecski?) I don't know what names are like in Bulgarian, or if any of them end in -ski, I'd like to know if this is a name that does not sound like it could be Bulgarian. If not, it's okay. I'll just be born from a Russian family or something? Perhaps my forename shouldn't be "Mikhail" (from my Russian alias), what's the Bulgarian eqivelent? Or better yet, what kind of neat Bulgarian first names do you think might fit me for this? (And how do middle names work?)
I have a few more questions but I'll ask later.
zmeiat_joro, Io.... If someone reads this, thank you for allowing me to waste away this time from your life. Help would be much appreciated.
In order to extend my escapades to greater levels, I have recently decided to produce a phony School ID (my school has these IDs we have to have when we go to dances, games, etc. I keep mine in my wallet) with my alias printed on it. As well as this, I would also like to produce a School ID from my fake school in Bulgaria. However, since I do not know much Bulgarian at all yet (I usually just make stuff up, take Russian and twist it around a little), and Bulgarian is definitely the direction I want to go with this, I need much help.
First off, my alias. I'd decided long ago that if I were Russian, I'd take my current name, /'sOijr\=/ and make into /sO'jEtski/ (Soyetski, or perhaps Sojecski?) I don't know what names are like in Bulgarian, or if any of them end in -ski, I'd like to know if this is a name that does not sound like it could be Bulgarian. If not, it's okay. I'll just be born from a Russian family or something? Perhaps my forename shouldn't be "Mikhail" (from my Russian alias), what's the Bulgarian eqivelent? Or better yet, what kind of neat Bulgarian first names do you think might fit me for this? (And how do middle names work?)
I have a few more questions but I'll ask later.
zmeiat_joro, Io.... If someone reads this, thank you for allowing me to waste away this time from your life. Help would be much appreciated.
"Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be."
–Leo Tolstoy
"My principles are only those that, before the French Revolution, every well-born person considered sane and normal."
–Julius Evola
–Leo Tolstoy
"My principles are only those that, before the French Revolution, every well-born person considered sane and normal."
–Julius Evola
- zmeiat_joro
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Bulgarian surnames generally end in -ov(a)/ev(a) or -ski/ska, also -in/ina, which is rare; and -ich, which besider being rare will probably make people think you're Serbian. But Soyetski doesn't sound like something that could pass for a Bulgarian surname.
I suppose Mikhail could do, but there's more typically Bulgarian names out there. It's not really that common either. I advise against it. (Also, I think most Bulgarians would transliterate it as Mihail). Maybe something like Асен, Божидар, Борис, Крум, Красимир, Любомир, Йордан, Найден or Стоян.
As for middle names, most people have one and it's their father's first name with an -ov(a)/ev(a). They're very limitedly used though, even in formal situations. And certainly not with the first name but without the surname. I suppose you should make one up but you don't need to necessarily nave it on your school ID (Although I did have it on mine).
I suppose Mikhail could do, but there's more typically Bulgarian names out there. It's not really that common either. I advise against it. (Also, I think most Bulgarians would transliterate it as Mihail). Maybe something like Асен, Божидар, Борис, Крум, Красимир, Любомир, Йордан, Найден or Стоян.
As for middle names, most people have one and it's their father's first name with an -ov(a)/ev(a). They're very limitedly used though, even in formal situations. And certainly not with the first name but without the surname. I suppose you should make one up but you don't need to necessarily nave it on your school ID (Although I did have it on mine).
<WurdBendur> Nae, why are you trying to sterilize maggot eggs?
Hey! Bulgarian is one of the languages on the top of my desire-to-learn list (it's #3 under Icelandic and Palestinian Arabic) -- is there anyone who can teach me Bulgarian? (You know, I'd buy books but I only have $230... and I need $300 to take Driver's Ed in June... not to mention I'm also saving up so I don't have as crappy of a car as both my brother and sister did with their first cars.) I'd ask my parents, but my dad is an idiot who just left unemployment and my mom is effected by the economic instability in America since she's underpaid (she's a social worker, nuff said). Let's just say that I buy most of my school lunches myself and I often get free dinner from my place of work.
Thanks for the help. I'm thinking of Найден Стойанов. What would the X-SAMPA be for that? Since I'm not 100% sure on palatalization and stress and such, I can't really tell if the names sound good together or not. What do you think? You know I'm a foreigner who doesn't speak Bulgarian, so I might suck at comign up with my own name. If it's awful or anything just let me know. We can't allow my alias to have a lowsy name. After all, I'll basically be representing your country to the people dim-witted enough to buy the act.zmeiat_joro wrote:Bulgarian surnames generally end in -ov(a)/ev(a) or -ski/ska, also -in/ina, which is rare; and -ich, which besider being rare will probably make people think you're Serbian. But Soyetski doesn't sound like something that could pass for a Bulgarian surname.
I suppose Mikhail could do, but there's more typically Bulgarian names out there. It's not really that common either. I advise against it. (Also, I think most Bulgarians would transliterate it as Mihail). Maybe something like Асен, Божидар, Борис, Крум, Красимир, Любомир, Йордан, Найден or Стоян.
As for middle names, most people have one and it's their father's first name with an -ov(a)/ev(a). They're very limitedly used though, even in formal situations. And certainly not with the first name but without the surname. I suppose you should make one up but you don't need to necessarily nave it on your school ID (Although I did have it on mine).
Also, how would I write in Bulgarian "Student ID" or "Student License" or whatever... And how would I write "Veneva High School" (or whatever the name of my Bulgarian school should be... haha, If you could just make up a believable name for a high school, it would be much help.)
Thanks a bunch for the help.
"Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be."
–Leo Tolstoy
"My principles are only those that, before the French Revolution, every well-born person considered sane and normal."
–Julius Evola
–Leo Tolstoy
"My principles are only those that, before the French Revolution, every well-born person considered sane and normal."
–Julius Evola
Yeah, probably. My bad I just transliterated it in a hurray from the Romanized version I'd found online.
"Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be."
–Leo Tolstoy
"My principles are only those that, before the French Revolution, every well-born person considered sane and normal."
–Julius Evola
–Leo Tolstoy
"My principles are only those that, before the French Revolution, every well-born person considered sane and normal."
–Julius Evola
- Space Dracula
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Unsurprising, it's just the combination of книга and the diminutive ending -кa.chris-gr wrote:oh, and by the way, according to my речник, a student booklet* is студентска книжка. but, of course, zmeiat joro will have the last word
(*) a student booklet is also in use here, in greece. And IT IS a booklet
as for Стойанов, my experience with russian tends to show that it varies greatly between palatalised vowels and й. Probably depends on the origins of the word.
Golden age set the moral standard, the Silver Age revised it, the Bronze Age broke free of it and the Rust Age ran wild with it. -- A. David Lewis
We're all under strict orders not to bite the newbies. -- Amaya
We're all under strict orders not to bite the newbies. -- Amaya
- zmeiat_joro
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студентска книжка is something uni students have, and I assume you're a high school student?!
Zeikan, how exactly do you invisage it? I don't have experience in teaching anyone bulgarian online... or off line for that matter.
Zeikan, how exactly do you invisage it? I don't have experience in teaching anyone bulgarian online... or off line for that matter.
<King> Ivo, you phrase things in the most comedic manner
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]
[quote="Jal"][quote="jme"]Thats just rude and unneeded.[/quote]That sums up Io, basically. Yet, we all love him.[/quote]