I see what you did there.Nortaneous wrote:dental thibilant allophones
A guide to small consonant inventories
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
linguoboy wrote:So that's what it looks like when the master satirist is moistened by his own moutarde.
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
I mean in terms of an abstract set of plosives, you could analyze it as having a two-way phonation contrast in dentals and alveo-palatals. /t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ are really just symbols here for the two contrastive elements of the two sets. That the phonation contrast is realized as "voiceless vs. voiced" for alveo-palatals but "voiced explosive vs. implosive" for dentals. This is really an issue about abstract versus surface representation.cromulant wrote:/b t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ k/ is indeed less weird...but I have not seen that cited as Karajá's plosive inventory anywhere, and it seems to be a pretty well-documented language.kodé wrote:Not really that strange: if /d ɗ/ is really /t d/ on the level of abstract features, then you get /b t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ k/, which is completely reasonable.
linguoboy wrote:Ah, so now I know where Towcester pastries originated! Cheers.GrinningManiac wrote:Local pronunciation - /ˈtoʊ.stə/
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
/b t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ k/ may or may not be a useful analysis. It really depends on the phonological behavior of those segments, the way they pattern. You can't just look at an inventory and make a prima facie determination that it needs a tweaking because it's too weird.kodé wrote:I mean in terms of an abstract set of plosives, you could analyze it as having a two-way phonation contrast in dentals and alveo-palatals. /t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ are really just symbols here for the two contrastive elements of the two sets. That the phonation contrast is realized as "voiceless vs. voiced" for alveo-palatals but "voiced explosive vs. implosive" for dentals. This is really an issue about abstract versus surface representation.cromulant wrote:/b t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ k/ is indeed less weird...but I have not seen that cited as Karajá's plosive inventory anywhere, and it seems to be a pretty well-documented language.kodé wrote:Not really that strange: if /d ɗ/ is really /t d/ on the level of abstract features, then you get /b t d t͡ʃ d͡ʒ k/, which is completely reasonable.
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
And as it turns out, the phoneme they are calling /d/ does pattern with /b/ in at least one setting:
It's not /ɗ/ that does this.wikipedia wrote: /a/ is nasalized word initially and when preceded by /h/ or a voiced stop: /aθi/ → [ãθi] 'grass', /ɔha/ → [ɔhã] 'armadillo'; this in turn nasalizes a preceding /b/ or /d/: /bahadu/ → [mãhãdu] 'group', /dadi/ → [nãdi] 'my mother'.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Seems like /a/ likes nasalization. Someone on the board posted about rhinoglottophilia happening in Avestan, and it was only around /a/, IIRC.Nortaneous wrote:Nasalization only of /a/ in Karaja is interesting -- /a/ is apparently always nasalized in Iau, which otherwise has no nasality whatsoever anywhere in it.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Done through G.
I'm not gonna put in a whole new column for it, but one of the twelve consonants in Fas is a bilabial trill. And there are two languages in this batch with no velars: Gimi (which shifted /k g/ to a fortis and a lenis glottal stop) and Girawa, where some dialects preserve /k/ and some have /ʔ/ instead. (Two go one way and three go the other, but I forget which way is which.)
I'm not gonna put in a whole new column for it, but one of the twelve consonants in Fas is a bilabial trill. And there are two languages in this batch with no velars: Gimi (which shifted /k g/ to a fortis and a lenis glottal stop) and Girawa, where some dialects preserve /k/ and some have /ʔ/ instead. (Two go one way and three go the other, but I forget which way is which.)
viewtopic.php?p=1050945#p1050945Pogostick Man wrote:Someone on the board posted about rhinoglottophilia happening in Avestan, and it was only around /a/, IIRC.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
According to the Wikipedia article, it also has /ə̃ õ/. My guess is that history has created a lot of odd correlations that haven't been broken by language contact and that these foul up the extraction of phonemes. A list of allophones might clean the picture up.Nortaneous wrote:Nasalization only of /a/ in Karaja is interesting -- /a/ is apparently always nasalized in Iau, which otherwise has no nasality whatsoever anywhere in it.
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Been checkin' out this nifty resource (thanks!). Just me or are very few PNG consonant inventories not < 12 consonants?Nortaneous wrote:Going through all the organized phonology datas on SIL PNG --
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
It's just you. So far, I'd estimate it at about a tenth.cromulant wrote:Been checkin' out this nifty resource (thanks!). Just me or are very few PNG consonant inventories not < 12 consonants?Nortaneous wrote:Going through all the organized phonology datas on SIL PNG --
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Found a bunch more (really long list inbound); cf. Berkeley University:
Akuntsú: /p t k kʷ ʔ m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Akurio: /p t tʃ k ʔ m n w j ɾ/
Andoke: /p t k b d ɟ ɸ s h ɲ ɾ/
Apalaí: /p t k ʔ s z ʃ m n w j ɾ/
Apiaká: /p t k ʔ s h m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Arára: /p t tʃ k m n ŋ w j ɾ l/
Araweté: /p t tʃ k ʔ d h m n w j ɾ/
Arikapú: /p t tʃ k ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Asuriní do Tocantins: /p t k kʷ ʔ s h m n ŋ w/
Avá-Canoeiro: /p t tʃ k kʷ ʁ m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Barasana-Eduria: /p t c k b d ɟ g h w ɾ/
Cabiyarí: /p t̪ t tʃ k ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Carib (French Guiana): /p t k ʔ s h m n w j ɭ/
Carib (Venezuela): /p t k s m n w j ɾ/
Chané Chiriguano: /p t tʃ k kʷ β s ʝ m n ŋ ɾ/
Izoceño Chiriguano: /p t k kʷ gʷ mb nd ŋg β s ʝ ɾ/
Desano: /p t k b d g s w j/
Gavião do Pará: /p t tʃ k kʰ h m n w j ɾ/
Guajá: /p t tʃ k kʷ ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Ingarikó: /p t k ʔ s m n w j ɾ/
Iquito: /p t k kʷ s h m n w j ɾ/
Jamamadí: /b t d ɟ k ɸ s h m n w ɾ/ (possibly the same language as Jarawara)
Jarawara: /b t ɟ k ɸ s h m n w ɾ/ (h is reported as being nasalized on the Wikipedia article)
Júma: /p t k ʔ g h m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Kanoé: /p t ts k β x m n ɲ w j ɾ/
Karapanã-Siriano: /p t k b d g s h w j ɾ/
Karitiâna: /p t k s h m n ɲ ŋ w ɾ/
Katukína: /p t tʃ k b d dʒ h m n ɲ l/
Kaxuiâna: /p t tʃ k ʔ s h m n w j ɾ/
Kokama: /p t ts tʃ k x m n w j ɾ/
Krahô: /p t ts k kʰ h m n ŋ w j l/
Latunde: /p t k ʔ β s h m n w j l/
Macuna: /t k b d g s h w j ɾ/
Makuráp: /p t tʃ k m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Nukak: /p t c k ʔ b d ɟ g h w ɾ/
Oro Win: /p t̪ʙ t k ʔ β s m n w j ɾ/ (I've heard this language mentioned on here before but apparently it makes the cut)
Panará: /p t k ʔ s h m n w j ɾ/
Parakanã: /p t tʃ k kʷ ʔ β h m n ŋ ɾ/
Parkateje : /p t k ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Pisamira: /p t tʃ k b d g β ʝ h ɰ/
Pemon: /p t k ʔ s m n w j ɾ/
Sabanê: /p t k ʔ ɓ ɗ s h m n l/
Sanumá: /p t ts k tʰ s h m n w l/
Tanimuca-Retuarã: /p t k ʔ b d s h w j ɾ/
Tatuyo: /p t c k b d g h w j ɾ/
Taushiro: /t tʃ k kʷ ʔ x h n ɲ w j ɾ/
Umotína: /p t k z ʃ ʒ m n w j ɾ l/
Waimaha: /p t k b d g h w j ɾ/
Waorani: /p t k b d g m n ɲ ŋ w j/
Wayana: /p t k h m n w j ɽ/
Yabarana: /p t k s h m n ɲ w j ɾ/
Yameo: /p t k s ʃ m n w j l/
Yanomami (Venezuela): /p t k tʰ s ʃ h m n w j ɾ/
Yãroamë: /p t tʃ k x h m n ɲ w ɾ/
Yekwana: /t tʃ k ʔ s h m n ɲ w j ɾ/
Yukpa de Irapa: /p t tʃ k ʔ s ʃ m n ʋ j ɾ/
Yurutí: /p t k b d g s h w j ɾ/
Several of these have identical inventories to each other, but I've included them for completeness. You can remove the duplicates if you want, or do whatever with these.
In general they're pretty boring as far as inventory goes, but there are a couple I think are especially strange. Taushiro has no labials, Umotina has /z/ but not /s/, Cabiyari, despite the small inventory, distinguishes dental and alveolar stops, and Avá-Canoeiro has a uvular consonant, which is really unusual for the area. The Amazon is weird.
Akuntsú: /p t k kʷ ʔ m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Akurio: /p t tʃ k ʔ m n w j ɾ/
Andoke: /p t k b d ɟ ɸ s h ɲ ɾ/
Apalaí: /p t k ʔ s z ʃ m n w j ɾ/
Apiaká: /p t k ʔ s h m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Arára: /p t tʃ k m n ŋ w j ɾ l/
Araweté: /p t tʃ k ʔ d h m n w j ɾ/
Arikapú: /p t tʃ k ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Asuriní do Tocantins: /p t k kʷ ʔ s h m n ŋ w/
Avá-Canoeiro: /p t tʃ k kʷ ʁ m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Barasana-Eduria: /p t c k b d ɟ g h w ɾ/
Cabiyarí: /p t̪ t tʃ k ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Carib (French Guiana): /p t k ʔ s h m n w j ɭ/
Carib (Venezuela): /p t k s m n w j ɾ/
Chané Chiriguano: /p t tʃ k kʷ β s ʝ m n ŋ ɾ/
Izoceño Chiriguano: /p t k kʷ gʷ mb nd ŋg β s ʝ ɾ/
Desano: /p t k b d g s w j/
Gavião do Pará: /p t tʃ k kʰ h m n w j ɾ/
Guajá: /p t tʃ k kʷ ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Ingarikó: /p t k ʔ s m n w j ɾ/
Iquito: /p t k kʷ s h m n w j ɾ/
Jamamadí: /b t d ɟ k ɸ s h m n w ɾ/ (possibly the same language as Jarawara)
Jarawara: /b t ɟ k ɸ s h m n w ɾ/ (h is reported as being nasalized on the Wikipedia article)
Júma: /p t k ʔ g h m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Kanoé: /p t ts k β x m n ɲ w j ɾ/
Karapanã-Siriano: /p t k b d g s h w j ɾ/
Karitiâna: /p t k s h m n ɲ ŋ w ɾ/
Katukína: /p t tʃ k b d dʒ h m n ɲ l/
Kaxuiâna: /p t tʃ k ʔ s h m n w j ɾ/
Kokama: /p t ts tʃ k x m n w j ɾ/
Krahô: /p t ts k kʰ h m n ŋ w j l/
Latunde: /p t k ʔ β s h m n w j l/
Macuna: /t k b d g s h w j ɾ/
Makuráp: /p t tʃ k m n ŋ w j ɾ/
Nukak: /p t c k ʔ b d ɟ g h w ɾ/
Oro Win: /p t̪ʙ t k ʔ β s m n w j ɾ/ (I've heard this language mentioned on here before but apparently it makes the cut)
Panará: /p t k ʔ s h m n w j ɾ/
Parakanã: /p t tʃ k kʷ ʔ β h m n ŋ ɾ/
Parkateje : /p t k ʔ h m n w j ɾ/
Pisamira: /p t tʃ k b d g β ʝ h ɰ/
Pemon: /p t k ʔ s m n w j ɾ/
Sabanê: /p t k ʔ ɓ ɗ s h m n l/
Sanumá: /p t ts k tʰ s h m n w l/
Tanimuca-Retuarã: /p t k ʔ b d s h w j ɾ/
Tatuyo: /p t c k b d g h w j ɾ/
Taushiro: /t tʃ k kʷ ʔ x h n ɲ w j ɾ/
Umotína: /p t k z ʃ ʒ m n w j ɾ l/
Waimaha: /p t k b d g h w j ɾ/
Waorani: /p t k b d g m n ɲ ŋ w j/
Wayana: /p t k h m n w j ɽ/
Yabarana: /p t k s h m n ɲ w j ɾ/
Yameo: /p t k s ʃ m n w j l/
Yanomami (Venezuela): /p t k tʰ s ʃ h m n w j ɾ/
Yãroamë: /p t tʃ k x h m n ɲ w ɾ/
Yekwana: /t tʃ k ʔ s h m n ɲ w j ɾ/
Yukpa de Irapa: /p t tʃ k ʔ s ʃ m n ʋ j ɾ/
Yurutí: /p t k b d g s h w j ɾ/
Several of these have identical inventories to each other, but I've included them for completeness. You can remove the duplicates if you want, or do whatever with these.
In general they're pretty boring as far as inventory goes, but there are a couple I think are especially strange. Taushiro has no labials, Umotina has /z/ but not /s/, Cabiyari, despite the small inventory, distinguishes dental and alveolar stops, and Avá-Canoeiro has a uvular consonant, which is really unusual for the area. The Amazon is weird.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
thanks -- have to make the most of the limited connectivity I have, so I'll add those tonight and update tomorrow
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Why do small consonant inventories and simple syllable structure tend to go hand in hand?
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Hmm, I did a little stats on that and that's the results:Theta wrote:Found a bunch more (really long list inbound); cf. Berkeley University:
[dupa]
Several of these have identical inventories to each other, but I've included them for completeness. You can remove the duplicates if you want, or do whatever with these.
In general they're pretty boring as far as inventory goes, but there are a couple I think are especially strange. Taushiro has no labials, Umotina has /z/ but not /s/, Cabiyari, despite the small inventory, distinguishes dental and alveolar stops, and Avá-Canoeiro has a uvular consonant, which is really unusual for the area. The Amazon is weird.
I divided the consonants into a few groups regarding how frequently they appear:
The top twelve — appearing in at least one in three languages
/t k/ — 100%
/p/ — 91%
/w/ — 86%
/n ɾ/ — 79%
/m/ — 77%
/j/ — 74%
/h/ — 67%
/s/ — 53%
/ʔ/ — 44%
/tʃ/ — 33%
Actually, one of the 57 languages use the exact top 12 inventory. Its name's Kaxuiâna.
Rare phonemes — found in at least 10% of the sample
/b d/ — 26%
/ŋ/ — 21%
/g/ — 19%
/ɲ kʷ/ — 16%
/l/ — 14%
/β/ — 12%
Very rare phonemes — found at least twice in the sample
/ʃ ɟ/ — 9%
/x ts/ — 7%
/c ɸ ʝ / — 5%
/tʰ kʰ z/ — 4%
Extremely rare phonemes — foundly only in one language each
/ʋ ɽ ʒ ɗ ɓ ɰ t̪ʙ dʒ ŋg nd mb gʷ ɭ t̪ ʁ/
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
I recall one explanation: if the language allows codas, then consonant clusters can arise at syllable boundaries, which are likely to simplify and give rise to new consonants, enlarging the inventory. The argument was basically then that the situation of non-simple syllable structure and small consonant inventory is unstable, and likely to change to a larger inventory.cromulant wrote:Why do small consonant inventories and simple syllable structure tend to go hand in hand?
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
That makes a lot of intuitive sense. My two 6-consonant phonologies ended up evolving into a 17- and a 19-consonant system for that very reason.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
updated
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Indeed. I note that, on the other hand, the converse appears not to be true: Simple syllable structure does not imply a small consonant inventory. Southern Africa in particular has plenty of languages (mainly Bantu and "Khoisan") that allow only (C)V syllables and have massive consonant inventories.Cúlro wrote:I recall one explanation: if the language allows codas, then consonant clusters can arise at syllable boundaries, which are likely to simplify and give rise to new consonants, enlarging the inventory. The argument was basically then that the situation of non-simple syllable structure and small consonant inventory is unstable, and likely to change to a larger inventory.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Well there's no reason for the converse to be true - the theory is that simple simple syllable structure prevents the consonant inventory from growing by providing fewer environments (fewer clusters) for new consonant distinctions to form, so consonant inventories of any size should be stable when combined with simple syllable structure.
In fact, perhaps we might expect Bantu, Khoisan and Kabardian style massive consonant inventories with CV syllable structure to be the end result of this process - if a language with a small inventory loses its simple syllable restriction, then clusters form, simplify into new phonemes, and after a few cycles of this the result would be a large consonant inventory and simple syllable structure again (because the clusters have simplified to new phonemes).
Diachronics challenge: provide sound changes from Rotokas to Kabardian
In fact, perhaps we might expect Bantu, Khoisan and Kabardian style massive consonant inventories with CV syllable structure to be the end result of this process - if a language with a small inventory loses its simple syllable restriction, then clusters form, simplify into new phonemes, and after a few cycles of this the result would be a large consonant inventory and simple syllable structure again (because the clusters have simplified to new phonemes).
Diachronics challenge: provide sound changes from Rotokas to Kabardian
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
over a sufficiently long time span anything is possible.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
I nominate this thread for the L&L Museum.
Mods please note.
Mods please note.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Seconded.Ketumak wrote:I nominate this thread for the L&L Museum.
Mods please note.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
Nomination accepted.Chengjiang wrote:Seconded.Ketumak wrote:I nominate this thread for the L&L Museum.
Mods please note.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
By this, do you mean "the presence of either /p/ or /n/ implies /m/", or "the presence of both /p/ and /n/ implies /m/"? I ask because Arapaho has /b/ and /n/ but no /m/, in which case the statement only holds true if it's the "both" version and only if /p/ specifically means a voiceless bilabial stop and not just any bilabial stop.Nortaneous wrote:/p n/ also imply /m/.
Aren't there certain Australian languages whose sole plosive series is always realized as voiced? I realize that the more common situation is to have a single plosive series that is realized as voiceless in some environments and voiced in others, but I thought there were a few where they were always voiced. That might just be an artifact of the analyses I've read, though.Theta wrote:That was the most spectacular thing about it to me--if some men really do get rid of *all* instances of [k], then for some speakers the language has no unvoiced plosives, unless you count affricates.
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
Formerly known as Primordial Soup
Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
The latter.Chengjiang wrote:By this, do you mean "the presence of either /p/ or /n/ implies /m/", or "the presence of both /p/ and /n/ implies /m/"? I ask because Arapaho has /b/ and /n/ but no /m/, in which case the statement only holds true if it's the "both" version and only if /p/ specifically means a voiceless bilabial stop and not just any bilabial stop.Nortaneous wrote:/p n/ also imply /m/.
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Re: A guide to small consonant inventories
There are some Australian languages where the only plosive series is realized as voiced, yes.
Wikipedia lists aɾiakɾe for k-less men's speech, so either that's an error or there are still voiceless stops there. It may be that some /tʃ/ are retained too. Anyone have a PDF of The Amazonian Languages?
Arapaho is the only language here with a labial plosive, /n/, and no /m/, but its only labial plosive is voiced. Are there languages with /p n/ and no /m/?
Wikipedia lists aɾiakɾe for k-less men's speech, so either that's an error or there are still voiceless stops there. It may be that some /tʃ/ are retained too. Anyone have a PDF of The Amazonian Languages?
Arapaho is the only language here with a labial plosive, /n/, and no /m/, but its only labial plosive is voiced. Are there languages with /p n/ and no /m/?
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.