Conlang Diachronics Relay II (now with schedule!)

Yng · Post by **Yng** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:42 pm

Round 3! Success.

WeepingElf · Post by **WeepingElf** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:34 pm

The phonology of my language is now "in dry cloths", as we say here. This also means that the language has a name - Çetázó. Now I'll work out the rest.

Basilius · Post by **Basilius** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:43 pm

OK, it seems that I've delved into the PNT stuff too deeply, so I guess I'll continue working on PNT daughters anyway. And I think I'll try to keep the pace with the relay just as a self-discipline exercise - people interested in that branch, please check the Akana Forum for updates :)

Qwynegold wrote:I'd rather not use Geoff's SCA because then I'd have to install some other crap, and I've had bad experiences with that.

In fact, you'll need only Python (Geoff's SCA is actually a Python script). If you're on Linux, you probably already have it, and it should not be difficult to install and use it on Windows. Don't know about Mac, though.

Qwynegold also wrote:Is Geoff's SCA similar to the one I linked to? Because in that case it would be easy to convert between the two programs if you want to use Geoff's.

They are ideologically similar, but the rules must be converted manually (I don't think a tool for this will ever appear).

Geoff's seems to be the only SCA that can treat recursive changes properly (that's "persistent rules", in Geoff's terminology): check Geoff's example with "jers in Slavonic" in the documentation (not exactly what happens to reduced vowels in Slavic, but a nice example rule anyway; availability of such rules is sometimes essential e. g. for suprasegmentals). And it doesn't seem to have any shortages really difficult to obviate (which all the other SCA's I've checked do have); its main shortcoming is IMO lack of a convenient way to introduce exceptions, but one can get round this.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:34 pm

Basilius wrote:In fact, you'll need only Python (Geoff's SCA is actually a Python script). If you're on Linux, you probably already have it, and it should not be difficult to install and use it on Windows. Don't know about Mac, though.

Mac OS X 10.4 and later have Python pre-installed. I don't know about earlier versions.

Basilius wrote:[Geoff's SCA's] main shortcoming is IMO lack of a convenient way to introduce exceptions, but one can get round this.

For instance:

Code: Select all

0      ;      #<+ptk>_V
<+ptk> <+fsx> _V
;      0      _

This would lenite all prevocalic plosives, except word-initially. I think this method is quite convenient, although <+ptk> <+fsx> _V UNLESS #_ might indeed be easier. This is a bit OT though

-----------------------

eodrakken wrote:I'm trying to get a sense of the Proto-Western region and history. For the maps on the wiki, which color represents Proto-Coastal-Western? And are there names or any information for the other branches?

PCW is light blue on maps 2/3 (later maps would show descendants of it); Gezoro is light purple, specifically the striped areas on map 4 (the rest of that colour on the same map shows close sister languages). None of the other branches have been named or defined yet, and in any case the maps may be modified somewhat in order to reflect the linguistic divisions which will be created in this relay.

eodrakken wrote:The dark purple region is a huge expansion. Does it represent a group that domesticated the horse and went nomadic? I couldn't find a geographical map of the region to say whether that's an open plain/steppe or not.

Exactly. There's mostly open steppe in that region. Also, the peoples of the light purple branch probably acquired horse domestication and nomadic lifestyle from the dark purple branch before invading the areas in the southeast.

roninbodhisattva · Post by **roninbodhisattva** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:22 pm

Is there another version of the Proto-Peninsular lexicon?

4pq1injbok · Post by **4pq1injbok** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:40 am

Zhen Lin wrote:On a different note, how is AhH coming? I liked it.

I haven't really touched it for a year (though, huh, apparently at some point I wrote up the sound changes and never linked it in). Hopefully all this will get me back into the Akana mindset and I'll pick it up again, or at least finally render the Sinakan text in it...

Qwynegold · Post by **Qwynegold** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:03 am

Basilius wrote:OK, it seems that I've delved into the PNT stuff too deeply, so I guess I'll continue working on PNT daughters anyway. And I think I'll try to keep the pace with the relay just as a self-discipline exercise - people interested in that branch, please check the Akana Forum for updates

Qwynegold wrote:I'd rather not use Geoff's SCA because then I'd have to install some other crap, and I've had bad experiences with that.
In fact, you'll need only Python (Geoff's SCA is actually a Python script). If you're on Linux, you probably already have it, and it should not be difficult to install and use it on Windows. Don't know about Mac, though.

That's exactly what I was referring to. I have Windows Vista. Please don't make me install it!

roninbodhisattva · Post by **roninbodhisattva** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:20 pm

If it wouldn't be a problem, I think I might have to get moved to a later round, as I have a lot on my plate University wise.

Basilius · Post by **Basilius** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:34 pm

cedh >

Yes, I use the same trick, only with something Cyrillic as the joker character :)

However, for Affanonic I needed a change whereby pharyngealization spreads left-to-right across syllable boundaries up to the end of the word, but this spread is blocked by certain consonants (just two of the whole inventory). With explicit exceptions available, that would be just one "persistent rule"; I managed to code the change somehow (I forget how exactly - I'm not on that machine now), but it looked sooo messy and inelegant...

Qwynegold >

OK, no problem, as I already said :)

I have some ideas about the early changes that would provide relatively compact inflections. In particular, it seems that intervocalic nasals (especially [m], maybe only in posttonic syllables) must drop with subsequent vowel contractions. I am going to post on that on the Akana forum, maybe later today.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:15 am

4pq1injbok wrote:
Zhen Lin wrote:On a different note, how is AhH coming? I liked it.
I haven't really touched it for a year (though, huh, apparently at some point I wrote up the sound changes and never linked it in). Hopefully all this will get me back into the Akana mindset and I'll pick it up again, or at least finally render the Sinakan text in it...

To answer some questions about phonology - yes, it is true that final consonant clusters do not occur (or at least, are exceedingly rare). Essentially, original final voiceless consonants were lost before */I U/ disappeared, and the original voiced consonants gained a /U/, thereby preventing cluster formation as well. You may find this useful.

Qwynegold · Post by **Qwynegold** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:12 am

Basilius wrote: Qwynegold >

OK, no problem, as I already said

Phew.

Basilius wrote:I have some ideas about the early changes that would provide relatively compact inflections. In particular, it seems that intervocalic nasals (especially [m], maybe only in posttonic syllables) must drop with subsequent vowel contractions. I am going to post on that on the Akana forum, maybe later today.

Oh shit, I've already started working on the sound changes (just a little). I'll post it too on the Akana forum...

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:07 pm

roninbodhisattva wrote:If it wouldn't be a problem, I think I might have to get moved to a later round, as I have a lot on my plate University wise.

Sure, you can definitely go later. Anyone up for starting from Proto-Peninsular right now?

Tiamat · Post by **Tiamat** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:27 pm

For Proto-Peninsulars team is the text we translate "The fisherman and the Fish"?

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:31 am

Yes. Suggestions for a longer text would also be appreciated.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:47 am

Leviticus.

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:25 am

Lorem Ipsum.

PeteTheMadScientist · Post by **PeteTheMadScientist** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:32 am

There's always the old favourite, the Babel Text.

the duke of nuke · Post by **the duke of nuke** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:36 am

Here's one that might work.

'A bat was jealous of his neighbour the rat.
When the bat cooked the food it was always very good, and the rat said, "How is it that when you make the soup it is so tasty?"
The bat replied, "I always boil myself in the water, and my flesh is so sweet, that the soup is good."
He then told the bush rat that he would show him how it was done; so he got a pot of warm water, which he told the rat was boiling water, and jumped into it, and very shortly afterwards came out again. When the soup was brought it was as strong and good as usual.
The rat then went home and told his wife that he was going to make good soup like the bat's. He told her to boil some water, which she did. Then, when his wife was not looking, he jumped into the pot, and was very soon dead.
When his wife looked into the pot and saw the dead body of her husband boiling she was very angry, and reported the matter to the chief, who gave orders that the bat should be made a prisoner. All day long the people tried to catch him, so he had to change his habits, and only came out to feed when it was dark, and that is why you never see a bat in the daytime.'

It's an adaptation of a Nigerian story which should suit the Peninsular peoples reasonably well.

Alternatively, why not a longer version of the Fisherman and the Fish? There's nothing to say you can't include more of the story.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:43 am

thedukeofnuke wrote:Here's one that might work.

That's ... scary, somewhat.

Alternatively, why not a longer version of the Fisherman and the Fish? There's nothing to say you can't include more of the story.

There's a longer version...?

Amuere · Post by **Amuere** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:41 pm

I like the Nigerian story, it's funny!

faiuwle · Post by **faiuwle** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:11 pm

Zhen Lin wrote:There's a longer version...?

Well, it's not quite the same story, but I did find this. It could probably work if it was shortened a bit and adapted more to PPI culture, though. (If there a page on PPI culture, by the way? I don't think I saw one on the Akana wiki, though I might have missed it.)

krinnen · Post by **krinnen** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:32 pm

Neil Gaiman uses that story in Anansi's Boys. Only instead of a bat, it's Anansi, the spider, and instead of a rat, it's the tiger.

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:16 pm

Was there a specific sample text to be used for PWestern? Or were we working off Dew's modified Schleicher text?

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:21 am

faiuwle wrote:
Zhen Lin wrote:There's a longer version...?
Well, it's not quite the same story, but I did find this. It could probably work if it was shortened a bit and adapted more to PPI culture, though.

That's an amusing story. A shortened version could work.

(If there a page on PPI culture, by the way? I don't think I saw one on the Akana wiki, though I might have missed it.)

There is not. There were some brief discussions about it, but nothing concrete has been set down.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:11 am

Drydic Guy wrote:Was there a specific sample text to be used for PWestern? Or were we working off Dew's modified Schleicher text?

That one. Of course you're free to look for a second, different sample text, but for the purposes of the relay we're using The horse and the sheep.