French Creoles

[jmcd]

Cut from PIE thread:

Fixsme: The creole usage in the article seems suspect: I tried googling for French creole C and French Creole D and got two Swadesh lists: http://ielex.mpi.nl/language/French_Creole_C/, http://ielex.mpi.nl/language/French_Creole_C/ but there's still hint as what distinguishes them and the forms cited in the second list seem unlikely what with the incomplete sound changes ('wespire' when 'r' becomes 'w' unconditionally otherwise)

I admit I can't find the reference to Haiti myself but there is only one creole language in Haiti anyway.

Loanwords aren't that much of a problem with creoles because the creole languages with the most substrate (West-Central African) influence, such as Saramaccan, still only have

Sorry, I do not understand your last sentence...

Sorry, I forgot to finish it : I meant to say "[They] still only have less than 10% of their vocabulary from their substrate languages".

I told a friend (he has a master in biology) about this article, its method and the usage of creole (his family comes from the Antilles). When he heard about this, he looked at me with round eyes and laughed. Each island has its own creole, if I sum up, it's like having the same ingredients but with a different recipe each time. One language is more spanish influenced, another one English influenced. That's why you would find incomplete sound change. Moreover, there are no standard orthography.

Even with different influences, you don't get incomplete sound changes like that.
In general, the creole languages spoken in independent countries, such as Seychelles and Haiti, have their own standard orthography but those that are part of France, such as here in Réunion, do not have a standard orthography. Thus if it's Dominican, I expect it will have its own orthography.
Also, the ingredients are not necessarily the same either. There is especially a big difference between the Carribean languages, where the main substrate is Niger-Congo and the Indian Ocean ones, where the main substrate is Austronesian.
And I don't know the Carribean creoles so well but the idea that English or Spanish has influenced Réunion Creole is out of ignorance. People just go "oh it's a mix of things" and then name languages they've heard of. Or else they do bullshit etymology (saying 'folk etymology' is an insult to anything folk-ish).

The citations mean that they included two lists for the same language. And I mistakenly linked to the same thing twice in my last post. Fortunately, the only difference is a 'd' instead of a 'c'. -_- I tried to compare those lists with what is found on http://www.avirtualdominica.com/creole.cfm but I can't manage to load the swadesh lists.

As for the dialects in France, there are sometimes glossaries online, such as this one for Norman: http://www.bmlisieux.com/normandie/dubois02.htm.

Other relevant discussion welcome of course.

[Fixsme]

Thank you for opening this thread.

With the "r" to "w" story, I don't think I understand it either. Here is want I guess:
I would guess, word initialy, it becomes a "w".
rouge -> wouj
In a stress syllab, it becomes also "w".
frère -> fwè
But in an unstressed one, it disappears.
grand-père -> konpè (I'm not sure but I think I'm stressing the "pè" of "père" over the "grand")
The "r", in a "-r" ending disappears.
frère -> fwè
vert -> vè
I have the feeling that an r onset in an unstressed syllable between sonorants, not sure,
rivière -> layvyè

But I don't understand also the wespire (that should be *wespiwe, or *wespie..), or the byen (bien) that should be *bwen (mien or moi or the two combined? -> mwen) or konprann (apparently the "r" did not change??, or there is a "a" that blocked it?)
Or is it really a /w/ and not somekind of labialized "r"?

As for the French dialects, I have found some ressources for Occitan (Gascon, Languedocien, Vivaro-Alpin), I have found some things about about Gallo, Franc-Comtois and Wallon, the main problem beeing the orthography. I was not aware of this lexicon for Normand, thank you.

[jmcd]

I expect the main problem is the dubatibility of the source. The list http://ielex.mpi.nl/language/French_Creole_C/ may well be accurate but http://ielex.mpi.nl/language/French_Creole_D/ surely isn't.

If the two lists are indeed supposed to refer to Dominica creole, it certainly doesn't correspond to what is found on http://www.avirtualdominica.com/creole.cfm, where I find no trace of 'r'.


As for the form 'mwen', this is present in Réunion creole (more often written <mwin> or <moin> though). It derives from the nasalisation of the preceding vowel, the older form being /mwe/. /mwe/ itself is of course the older form of <moi> in standard French.

Got to go

[Fixsme]

Agreed.

I found this website http://creoles.free.fr/articles/tipamchm.htm in the third paragraph they show a bit of the rules for "r" and nazalisation.

About the variety of French spoken, I think since cities of the western coast of France were the one that mainly traded slaves (please correct me if I'm wrong), it's more likely that there was various Oil dialect and maybe Occ dialects and not only "Standard French."

[jmcd]

Yes, the basis for Réunion Creole was a mix of Northern and Western dialects of French, not Standard French. The most important varieties were Gallo (Breton dialect) and Norman. And I expect the same will be true of other French-based creoles. I know there also significant Norman contribution to Quebec French as well, causing similarities in the vocabulary between Réunion and Quebec.

After all, Standard French was something relatively recent, the Académie Française having been created in 1635. And standardisation started destroying variety elsewhere in world after that.

Anyway, one nitpick I have is that Rodriguais seems to me significantly different from Mauritian to be classed separately and, in literature which compares the Indian Ocean creoles, it usually is.

Réunion Creole is only French-based creole to have kept the front rounded vowels, though it varies depending on where you are on the island and the family.