PC pronouns
- 2+3 clusivity
- Avisaru
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PC pronouns
So English has "zhe" and "zir" as PC pronouns (*Not a Standard Feature*) for people who neither want to be called she, he, or it. Any other NatLangs doing this that encode for gender?
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- Avisaru
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Re: PC pronouns
those appear to be from different proposals2+3 clusivity wrote:So English has "zhe" and "zir" as PC pronouns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun
Re: PC pronouns
Kind of boring, but Japanese makes regular use of あの人 ano hito "that person", which functions basically the same as a third person pronoun.
Re: PC pronouns
In my dialect of Dutch, you can use "die" (that) as a pronoun to refer to a person of either gender. I don't think it's ever used in writing, not even informal writing, though, and it might be more of a reduction of 'hij' and 'zij' (male and female pronouns) with an epenthetic /d/ (I guess). It certainly wasn't created to accommodate those who fall outside of the linguistic gender binary...
— o noth sidiritt Tormiott
Re: PC pronouns
Spanish supposedly has ell@s, and in general the use of @ as a catch-all for -o and -a. I dont know how you pronounce it and I've never even seen in it in writing, but I've read in multiple different places that it exists.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Re: PC pronouns
I asked this in the Questions Thread, but received no response: if any natlangs natively, as a Standard Feature, have both sexed and dedicated non-neuter epicene pronouns.
- Nortaneous
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Re: PC pronouns
No it doesn't.2+3 clusivity wrote:So English has "zhe" and "zir" as PC pronouns (*Not a Standard Feature*) for people who neither want to be called she, he, or it.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
- Ulrike Meinhof
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Re: PC pronouns
Swedish normally has han and hon for 'he' and 'she' respectively, but as late as this year there has been a huge debate on the gender neutral hen, which has gained quite some popularity. As far as language planning goes anyway. Of course the traditional pronouns are still massively outnumbering the new coinage (which isn't exactly newly coined, just hasn't been popular until recently), but you can find it in newspapers every now and then, and one pop magazine (Nöjesguiden) did an issue where they replaced all gendered pronouns with hen. I see people use it on Facebook and the like, and even heard my professor using it once, albeit half-jokingly.
Some people want to use it for gender-ambiguous situations and others instead of all han and hon. The protests against it have been huge of course, but I'm quite surprised it's made the impact that it has. Remains to see if it fades away or stays, but seeing as there's been such a massive media coverage on it for months, it's never again going to be an obscure word that nobody understands. That excuse for not using it is void by now.
Some people want to use it for gender-ambiguous situations and others instead of all han and hon. The protests against it have been huge of course, but I'm quite surprised it's made the impact that it has. Remains to see if it fades away or stays, but seeing as there's been such a massive media coverage on it for months, it's never again going to be an obscure word that nobody understands. That excuse for not using it is void by now.
Attention, je pelote !
- Radius Solis
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Re: PC pronouns
Yeah, you don't get to say we "have" such pronouns until such time as they are recognized and used by a non-tiny fraction of the English speaking world. But this may eventually come about, who knows - feminism has succeeded in altering our language in other ways.Nortaneous wrote:No it doesn't.2+3 clusivity wrote:So English has "zhe" and "zir" as PC pronouns (*Not a Standard Feature*) for people who neither want to be called she, he, or it.
Re: PC pronouns
That's just for informal writing (i.e. in facebook, "hola chic@s, que os parece quedar el dia ..."), we just make general spoken use of the masculine words and that's it.Soap wrote:Spanish supposedly has ell@s, and in general the use of @ as a catch-all for -o and -a. I dont know how you pronounce it and I've never even seen in it in writing, but I've read in multiple different places that it exists.
Some enthusiasts employ the plural feminine when female nº > male nº in a group; but I generally don't, in fact I and other people can be seen addressing groups of females with 'vosotros'. That's why I don't have much remorse in using 'he' whenever I don't feel like using singular 'they'. I honestly don't understand what all the fuss is about, and I'll go on using masculine predominantly.
Last edited by Thry on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: PC pronouns
I've heard conflicting views about Korean 그사람 (similar to Jap. "ano hito") - most natives I've asked seem to think it's neutral, but at least one thought it was more likely to be a man. Can anyone shed light on that?
Low Pr. kalbeken < Lith. kalbėti
Lith. sūris = cheese, Fr. souris = mouse... o_O
Lith. sūris = cheese, Fr. souris = mouse... o_O
Re: PC pronouns
Japanese (as it has a variety of pronouns, some of them gendered).cromulant wrote:I asked this in the Questions Thread, but received no response: if any natlangs natively, as a Standard Feature, have both sexed and dedicated non-neuter epicene pronouns.
Re: PC pronouns
There's some controversy over whether or not Japanese pronouns are really pronouns and not just nouns that act funny, though, isn't there?
- Salmoneus
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Re: PC pronouns
Sure, but a pronoun is just a noun that acts funny. [Hell, a verb is a noun that acts REALLY funny]. Depends on exactly how you want to define 'pronoun', and 'funny'.dhokarena56 wrote:There's some controversy over whether or not Japanese pronouns are really pronouns and not just nouns that act funny, though, isn't there?
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: PC pronouns
"Some varieties of English have"... I think is more appropriate.Radius Solis wrote:Yeah, you don't get to say we "have" such pronouns until such time as they are recognized and used by a non-tiny fraction of the English speaking world. But this may eventually come about, who knows - feminism has succeeded in altering our language in other ways.Nortaneous wrote:No it doesn't.2+3 clusivity wrote:So English has "zhe" and "zir" as PC pronouns (*Not a Standard Feature*) for people who neither want to be called she, he, or it.
- ol bofosh
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Re: PC pronouns
"A person walked into a bar, but they ruined the joke with their PC pronouns."
Could that count?
Could that count?
It was about time I changed this.
Re: PC pronouns
Yes it's called singular they.
Re: PC pronouns
Singular "they" doesn't really work with named individuals, though. So:
"Someone just walked up to me, and they they hit me with a large, purple stick."
But not:
*"Pat just walked up to me, and they hit me with a large, purple stick."
"Someone just walked up to me, and they they hit me with a large, purple stick."
But not:
*"Pat just walked up to me, and they hit me with a large, purple stick."
Re: PC pronouns
This happens on facebook with people who have not specified their gender.
"John Smith updated their work history."
"John Smith updated their work history."
Re: PC pronouns
I don't know about you, but I use singular they for named people all the time, especially when on the internet.Vuvuzela wrote:Singular "they" doesn't really work with named individuals, though. So:
"Someone just walked up to me, and they they hit me with a large, purple stick."
But not:
*"Pat just walked up to me, and they hit me with a large, purple stick."
Nūdhrēmnāva naraśva, dṛk śraṣrāsit nūdhrēmanīṣṣ iźdatīyyīm woḥīm madhēyyaṣṣi.
satisfaction-DEF.SG-LOC live.PERFECTIVE-1P.INCL but work-DEF.SG-PRIV satisfaction-DEF.PL.NOM weakeness-DEF.PL-DAT only lead-FUT-3P
satisfaction-DEF.SG-LOC live.PERFECTIVE-1P.INCL but work-DEF.SG-PRIV satisfaction-DEF.PL.NOM weakeness-DEF.PL-DAT only lead-FUT-3P
- Lyhoko Leaci
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Re: PC pronouns
"Pat just walked up to me, and they hit me with a large, purple stick." sounds perfectly okay to me.
Zain pazitovcor, sio? Sio, tovcor.
You can't read that, right? Yes, it says that.
You can't read that, right? Yes, it says that.
Shinali Sishi wrote:"Have I spoken unclearly? I meant electric catfish not electric onions."
- Ulrike Meinhof
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Re: PC pronouns
I've noticed a few instances where Facebook assumes you're male even if you haven't specified gender. The only one I recall at the moment is (in the French version), when there's a like button on external websites and none of your friends has yet liked the thing (a video, a blog post or whatever), it says "Soyez le premier".clawgrip wrote:This happens on facebook with people who have not specified their gender.
"John Smith updated their work history."
Attention, je pelote !
Re: PC pronouns
I'd agree, but it's far better (and likely to change and actually become neutral) than making up words like hir. Perhaps the worst thing about the made up pronouns is that for some reason they have decided to imitate the fossilized case distinctions; this comes across as linguistically naive and makes them far more awkward to use. Real "new" pronouns like "y'all" act like normal nouns, with no oblique form, and "y'all's" as the possessive.Vuvuzela wrote:Singular "they" doesn't really work with named individuals, though. So:
"Someone just walked up to me, and they they hit me with a large, purple stick."
But not:
*"Pat just walked up to me, and they hit me with a large, purple stick."
It does cause me to double take sometimes if people use it with a definite antecedent, though, so it's still got a way to go.
Re: PC pronouns
Not a few instances, a few languages. Because well, that's how romance works as of today (at least I think French works like Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan and likely Italian and others). It's not really an assumptino that you're male.Ulrike Meinhof wrote:I've noticed a few instances where Facebook assumes you're male even if you haven't specified gender. The only one I recall at the moment is (in the French version), when there's a like button on external websites and none of your friends has yet liked the thing (a video, a blog post or whatever), it says "Soyez le premier".clawgrip wrote:This happens on facebook with people who have not specified their gender.
"John Smith updated their work history."
Re: PC pronouns
Not necessarily. At least in my dialect, the most common possessive of you guys is your guys' (with /z/ not /zɪz/) not you guys's (with /zɪz/), even though that does pop up every once in a while. Note that your guys's (with /zɪz/) also pops up every once in a while, by analogy with both patterns simultaneously.finlay wrote:Real "new" pronouns like "y'all" act like normal nouns, with no oblique form, and "y'all's" as the possessive.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.