Qwynegold wrote:Hi! I'm working with SCA², and have come across a problem that I'm not sure if it's because of a bug, or if there's something that I'm just not seeing. Would you take a look at this please?
CategoriesRewrite rulesCode: Select all
C=mnpbtdkɡqʷpfbvtsdzfvszxɣrlʋ̥ʋθðqβ̊βʍwtʃdʒhʲʝɫŋjɮ
Sound changesCode: Select all
<V_unstressed>|Ѵ <V_stressed>|Ѷ ɑ́|ắ <P_voiced>|Ṕ <P_unvoiced>|Ṗ <A_unvoiced>|Ȧ <A_voiced>|à <F_voiced1>|Φ <F_unvoiced1>|Ḟ <bilabial>|B pf|ȹ bv|ȸ ts|ʦ dz|ʣ <velar>|K qʷ|ʠ <alveolar1>|X <guttural1>|Ⱪ <V_unuvular>|Ṿ <V_uvular>|Ṽ ɒ̝|â ɒ̝́|ấ <uvular>|Q <V_unrounded1>|Ɯ <V_rounded1>|W œ́|ő ɞ́|ḗ ɒ́|ǻ <unlenited1>|DZ <lenited1>|Θ ʋ̥|ƒ <labiodental1>|F <bilabial1>|Ƀ <labiovelar1>|Ẅ <V_front1>|E <V_back1>|O β̊|ɸ tʃ|ʧ dʒ|ʤ <O_voiced>|Õ <O_unvoiced>|Ȯ <C_unvoiced>|Ċ ɛ́|ȅ <V_front2>|Ε <V_back2>|Ο <V_unrounded2>|Ι <V_rounded2>|Υ ə́|ớ
Input lexiconCode: Select all
ou/øy/_(C(C(C(C))))j əu/øy/_(C(C(C(C))))j ɑu/æy/_(C(C(C(C))))j ɑo/æø/_(C(C(C(C))))j u/y/_(C(C(C(C))))j o/ø/_(C(C(C(C))))j [ɑɒ]/æ/_(C(C(C(C))))j óú/ǿý/_(C(C(C(C))))j ə́ú/ǿý/_(C(C(C(C))))j ɑ́ú/ǽý/_(C(C(C(C))))j ɑ́ó/ǽǿ/_(C(C(C(C))))j ú/ý/_(ː)(C(ː)(C(C(C))))j ó/ǿ/_(ː)(C(ː)(C(C(C))))j [ɑ́ɒ́]/ǽ/_(ː)(C(ː)(C(C(C))))j ou/øy/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií] əu/øy/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií] ɑu/æy/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií] ɑo/æø/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií] u/y/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií] o/ø/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií] [ɑɒ]/æ/_C(C(C(C(C))))[ií] óú/ǿý/_C(C(C(C(C))))i ə́ú/ǿý/_C(C(C(C(C))))i ɑ́ú/ǽý/_C(C(C(C(C))))i ɑ́ó/ǽǿ/_C(C(C(C(C))))i ú/ý/_(ː)C(ː)(C(C(C(C))))i ó/ǿ/_(ː)C(ː)(C(C(C(C))))i [ɑ́ɒ́]/ǽ/_(ː)C(ː)(C(C(C(C))))i
I'm trying to do some umlauting, but none of the [j] causes it with this code, while [i í] does as expected. The output I get is:Code: Select all
ourtskjɑ́ urtskjɑ́ wɒjé øvóːskjɑ øvórːskjɑ əurkstríː ɑlmsprínː ekúːstri ekúnːspri ekúlmstrik
So I tried some things, and it turns out that if I remove one optional C from the conditions dealing with j, then the code works for most part. I.e. with _(C(C(C)))j instead of _(C(C(C(C))))j. But not only that, with ou/øy/_(C(C(C)))j for example, [ourtskjɑ́] turns into [øyrtskjɑ́] even though [ou] and [j] have four consonants between them, and therefore ought not to be affected.Code: Select all
ourtskjɑ́ → ourtskjɑ́ urtskjɑ́ → urtskjɑ́ wɒjé → wɒjé øvóːskjɑ → øvóːskjɑ øvórːskjɑ → øvórːskjɑ əurkstríː → øyrkstríː ɑlmsprínː → ælmsprínː ekúːstri → ekýːstri ekúnːspri → ekýnːspri ekúlmstrik → ekýlmstrik
Another strange thing is that if the vowel is directly followed by [j] such as in the word [wɒjé], then the vowel will not change, even if only one optional C is specified in the code.
SCA2 questions
Re: SCA2 question
Oh, I thought this thread had already been pruned, so I PMed Zompist. Maybe someone here could also help?
Re: SCA2 question
ts is counted as one character, due to your specifications
Slava, čĭstŭ, hrabrostĭ!
Re: SCA2 question
Ohh, duh! Thanks for pointing it out. Now, if I change that [t] to another consonant, for the first two words in this list, it works like it should.R.Rusanov wrote:ts is counted as one character, due to your specifications
ourlskjɑ́ → øyrlskjɑ́
urkskjɑ́ → yrkskjɑ́
wɒjé → wɒjé
øvóːskjɑ → øvóːskjɑ
øvórːskjɑ → øvórːskjɑ
əurkstríː → øyrkstríː
ɑlmsprínː → ælmsprínː
ekúːstri → ekýːstri
ekúnːspri → ekýnːspri
ekúlmstrik → ekýlmstrik
But there are still unresolved questions left. Since [ts] is just one consonant, why don't words with that change? Or the words that I've marked with red here. It's as if the program thinks that (C(C(C(C)))) means that there must be exactly four consonants and no less.
Re: SCA2 question
Try rules like
ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j
A quick test worked as expected for me-- the change happens with zero to four consonants before the j.
I'm not sure what you wanted with the nested parentheses, but I can tell you from the code that they certainly do nothing to help.
ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j
A quick test worked as expected for me-- the change happens with zero to four consonants before the j.
I'm not sure what you wanted with the nested parentheses, but I can tell you from the code that they certainly do nothing to help.
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Re: SCA2 question
It might be worthwhile to rename this thread with a plural -s and move it to NOTA, because a) trials and tribulations people have run into in the past will still be on record to help anyone else who runs into the same ones a year later, and b) half the time it's something we can answer for each other anyway.
If nobody disagrees I'll do it tomorrow.
If nobody disagrees I'll do it tomorrow.
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Re: SCA2 question
I VIOLENTLY DISAGREE
You should do it now.
You should do it now.
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Re: SCA2 question
In which case, I also have a question. I have the rules ə/a/x_ and ə/a/_x, but is there any way to combine them? Also, why doesn't (say) S/R/_[VS] work? I've had to split it into two rules (one ending in V, the other in S), but there are numerous other pairs (or more) of rules just like that.
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Re: SCA2 question
To my knowledge, no, there's no way to do 'before and after' changes in one rule. And it appears that you can't put categories in square brackets. Of course, if V and S commonly pattern together, you can just define another category that includes both.KathAveara wrote:In which case, I also have a question. I have the rules ə/a/x_ and ə/a/_x, but is there any way to combine them? Also, why doesn't (say) S/R/_[VS] work? I've had to split it into two rules (one ending in V, the other in S), but there are numerous other pairs (or more) of rules just like that.
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
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Re: SCA2 question
Thanks!
Re: SCA2 question
Ah, that was another thing I was gonna ask about, if (C(C(C(C)))) or (C)(C)(C)(C) was quicker for the computer to compute, or if it made no difference. But okay, one should avoid nested parenthesis.zompist wrote:Try rules like
ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j
A quick test worked as expected for me-- the change happens with zero to four consonants before the j.
I'm not sure what you wanted with the nested parentheses, but I can tell you from the code that they certainly do nothing to help.
Anyhow, I had tried things like ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j before, and now I tried it again just to make sure. It works if there are exactly four consonants, but not if there are 0-3 consonants. This is what I get:
Code: Select all
ourlskjɑ́ → øyrlskjɑ́
ourskjɑ́ → ourskjɑ́
ouskjɑ́ → ouskjɑ́
oukjɑ́ → oukjɑ́
oujɑ́ → oujɑ́
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Re: SCA2 question
Tried it just now and it works for me in all those cases.
Re: SCA2 question
That's strange. I tested it with both Chrome and IE just now, it does not work for me. I also asked a friend to try it, and it didn't work for him either. He has Firefox. What's different with you and Zompist? I tried bith with and without the rewrite rules, but it didn't make any difference.KathAveara wrote:Tried it just now and it works for me in all those cases.
Re: SCA2 question
As an experiment, start with the default categories, replace the rules with
ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j
and the lexicon with
oucja
ouccja
oucccja
ouccccja
oucccccja
This works fine for me (PC, IE 10, but I tested it on Mac Firefox earlier). Does it work for you?
Also FWIW make sure you have the latest version (shift-Refresh), in case you have a cached older version.
ou/øy/_(C)(C)(C)(C)j
and the lexicon with
oucja
ouccja
oucccja
ouccccja
oucccccja
This works fine for me (PC, IE 10, but I tested it on Mac Firefox earlier). Does it work for you?
Also FWIW make sure you have the latest version (shift-Refresh), in case you have a cached older version.
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Re: SCA2 question
I'm using the latest Firefox on Win7.
Re: SCA2 question
It works for me too (FF, Mac). Qwynegolds version didn't work, but I figured out why: the default categories don't include <k> because they're geared towards Latin orthography.
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Re: SCA2 questions
OMG I finally figured out what the problem is. Thanks everyone whose been helping out. Now I realized that if I remove j from category C, then it works. It must be that when it says (C)(C)(C)(C)j, then in a word like "ourskja", j is counted as the fourth C rather than the obligatory j in the rule. >.<
Re: SCA2 questions
Hmm, yeah, the program doesn't know how to take multiple paths. In this case I'd just put j in a different category than C.
Re: SCA2 questions
Hi!
How can make the assimilation of one category of a preceding consonants to the next immediately adjacent, with use of one-verse rules?
It's something like this:
agla → alla
abda → adda
erse → esse
How can make the assimilation of one category of a preceding consonants to the next immediately adjacent, with use of one-verse rules?
It's something like this:
agla → alla
abda → adda
erse → esse
Re: SCA2 questions
Artaxes: NS/SS/_
Where N is the assimilated category and S is the assimilating category.
Where N is the assimilated category and S is the assimilating category.
Re: SCA2 questions
Thank you! But if two consonants are within the same category (ie. only voiceless plosives) must be assimilated by way "first to second" ?Rhetorica wrote:Artaxes: NS/SS/_
Where N is the assimilated category and S is the assimilating category.
P=ptʈckqʔ
atka → akka
atca → acca
etc.
Re: SCA2 questions
CC/CC/_ works by keeping the first value it encounters (atka → atta), so you'll need to write rules for every final voiceless plosive, e.g. Ct/tt/_
This is why you can't do metathesis with DC/CD/_ (where C = D). The special metathesis rule, DC/\\/_ can't be combined with other characters (e.g. DC\a\\/_ causes the output "a\\")
This is why you can't do metathesis with DC/CD/_ (where C = D). The special metathesis rule, DC/\\/_ can't be combined with other characters (e.g. DC\a\\/_ causes the output "a\\")
Re: SCA2 questions
Not to bother this, but...can we make it possible to put pre-existing categories in nonce categories themselves? For example, if
P=pb
T=td
K=kg
and we have a rule
[KT]w/P/_
it won't do anything. But
Kw/P/_
Tw/P/_
works as expected. Is this a bug?
P=pb
T=td
K=kg
and we have a rule
[KT]w/P/_
it won't do anything. But
Kw/P/_
Tw/P/_
works as expected. Is this a bug?
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Re: SCA2 questions
Apparently that's intentional.
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Re: SCA2 questions
Apparently, optional categories don't play well coming before non-optional categories in the environment part.
Use the following code with the sample to see what happens.
If the code is used as is, you will get fco, jco, and scendo; if you switch (T) and T, so T(T), then it runs fine.
Use the following code with the sample to see what happens.
Code: Select all
T=ptcbdg
V/V²/_(T)Tu
VT/\\/_(T)u
u//TV_