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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:50 pm 
Avisaru
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doctrellor wrote:
something simple where we can see the flow, and see how the languages change from one with no adpositions, and 1 or 2 meansings per word (Isolating) to 2 or 3 affixes, 4 or 5 meanings per root(Agglutinating), to the affixes join together into a 'hard to seperate' mess (Fusional/Poly)


<pendantic>Uh...I wouldn't call those aren't very good descriptions of those languages in the first place. Agglutinating languages use particles, affixes, and infixes with only one meaning each, fusional languages use particles, affixes, and infixes with multiple meanings encoded in each, and isolating languages, err...I can't describe well.</pendantic>

But someone else can provide better definitions than mine :oops: , and give an answer to your original question.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:04 pm 
Avisaru
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Quoth SIL:

An agglutinative language is a language in which words are made up of a linear sequence of distinct morphemes and each component of meaning is represented by its own morpheme.

A fusional language is a language in which one form of a morpheme can simultaneously encode several meanings. Fusional languages may have a large number of morphemes in each word, but morpheme boundaries are difficult to identify because the morphemes are fused together.

An isolating language is a language in which almost every word consists of a single morpheme.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:00 pm 
Sanci
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I'm reviving the thread for two reasons: 1, it's too useful to let die. 2, it may come in use for the ConlangResource.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:45 pm 
Niš
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Some Germanic sound changes

From IE to common Germanic:
Consonants
bh, dh, gh > B, D, G
b, d, g > p, t, k
p, t, k > f, T, x > B, D, G (except initially or following IE stress, in which case they remained f, T, x)
s > z (except initially or following IE stress)
i/j > j after short vowel plus consonant, otherwise > ij
u/w > w after short vowel plus consonant, otherwise > uw

Vowels
a > a
a: > o:
e > i
e: > {: (e.g. *se:d- > *s{:t "sat")
o > a (e.g. *dhoghos > *DaGaz)
o: > o:
i > i
i: > i:
u > u (e.g. *ghutos > *GuDaz "god (being invoked?)")
u > u:

ei > i:
e:i > e: (?)
oi > ai (e.g. *stoigha > *staiG "ascended")
o:i > o: (?) (e.g. *ulkwo:i > *wulfo:? "wolf (dat. sg.)")
ai > ai
a:i > o: (?)

eu > iu (e.g. *geusonom > *kiusanan "to choose")
ou > au (e.g. *prousa > *fraus "froze")
au > au (e.g. *aug- > *auk- "increase")

Common Germanic to West Germanic
Consonants
B, D, G > b, d, g initially and following IE stress (but *gefan < *ghebh- "give")
z > r or disappeared (e.g. *dagaz > *dag but *hauzjan > *haurjan "to hear")
Cj > CCj (unless C == *r), (e.g. *satjan > *sattjan "to set")

Stressed Vowels
A-umlaut (common and early enough to be included here):
i > e preceding syllable with a, o in it (e.g. *GiBanan > *gefan "to give")
u > o preceding syllable with a, o in it (e.g. *GulDaz > *gold "gold")
final o: > u: (*GiBo: > *gefo: > *gefu:)

That's all for now.


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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 6:12 pm 
Sanci
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I'm reviving this thread to post a link to this: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/CompPhon.pdf

Which is a study of the historical phonology of Ancient Greek, and has a list of changes from PIE to Ancient Greek.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 5:40 pm 
Sanci
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So you're at Washington University? I live a couple blocks away and am going there next year!

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 5:45 pm 
Lebom
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civman2000 wrote:
So you're at Washington University? I live a couple blocks away and am going there next year!

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Erm... no, look at his location. He just linked to a page from there.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 5:57 pm 
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Oops :oops:...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:44 pm 
Avisaru
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Today I've managed to find a bunch of Latin to Spanish sound changes. Here's the list I've compiled:

V = vowels
C = consonants
O = obstruents
S = sonorants
L = liquids
U = back vowels
E = front vowels
N = nasal
K = velar
? = stressed vowel
A = unstressed vowel

(I originally had this in IPA, but a lot of people here probably can't display the IPA characters. To distinguish between X-SAMPA and the above categories, I've underlined all of the capitalized SAMPA letters)

Vulgar Latin > Spanish

I: > i
[i, e:] > e
[ae, e] > ie
[a:, a] > a
o > ue
[au, o:, u] > o
u: > u

C > ? / _# (if C is not l, s, n)
f > h > ? / #_
v > b
z > s
Z > S
S > x
w > B
B > b / V_V
B > b / V_L
p > b / V_V
j > x / #_U, ? elsewhere
tj > ts > s / #_, C_
kj > ts > s / #_, C_
tj > dz > z > s / V_V
kj > dz > z > s / V_V
O > ? / OldSp. _ts
dj > ts > s / C_
[dj,gj] > ? / _E
[dj, gj] > j / _
nj > J / _
g > ? / #_
g > ? / V_V
p > b / V_V, _L
t > d / V_V, _L
k > g / V_V, _L
A > ? / ?(C)_(C)?
lj > L > Z > x / _
g > dz > s / [n, r]_
mp > m / _C
m > n / _[t, d]
n > m / [p, b]
n > l / _m
n > r / nK_
[p, b, l] > w > ? / _$
kt > jt > tS / V_V
kt > jt / _C
lt > jt > tS / u_V
lt > jt / _C
ks > js > S / V_V
ks > js / _#, _C
[kl, gl] > jl > L > Z > S > x / V_V
[kl, gl] > jl / _C
gn > jn > J / V_V
k_w > k / _V (other than a)
k_w > kj > ts > s / _V (rare)
k_w > gw / V_a
k_w > kw / #_a
[pl, fl, kl] > tS / C_, L elsewhere (with exceptions)
C > ? / _tS (if C is not N)
ps > ss / _
pt > tt / _
SS > S / _C (if S = S)
ll > L / _
nn > J / _
rr > r / _
OO > O / _ (if O = O)
e > ? / _#
dn > nd / _
? > e / _sC
Vr > rV / _#

("k_w" is supposed to be [k_w])

(Note that these aren't in any real order... I just added them in the order I found them, but I moved some things around when their locations were more obvious or needed to be before another change. Hopefully there aren't any mistakes here :wink: )

Anyone here who knows more, feel free to add/correct/re-order the above.

Also, I remember a thread awhile ago about PIE > Latin changes (IIRC). Would someone mind posting that here?


I'll post more stuff on other languages when I find some...

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Last edited by Mecislau on Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:03 pm 
Niš
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Cool. :) I really wanted those sound changes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:54 am 
Sanci
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SOme of those changes are only for a specific dialect. FOr example, /ts dz/ went to /T/ and only then to /s/ in certain dialects. Also, the fate of /L/ varies widely, the most common being /j\/, /j/, and /Z/, though I've also heard of retaining /L/, /dZ/, and even /S/ (though never the /x/ that you have). Also, <j> is /x/, /X/, and /h/ in different dialects.

Quote:
ks > js > S / V_V

This continued on to /x/.

Quote:
g > ? / V_V

What are some examples of this? What about, say, lago (which I presume is from latin lagus or lagum)? Why isn't it *lao?

Also, some syllable initial /t/ went to /ts/>/T/. This is most visible in the -cion endings, but I also think it may have happened in things like fuerte vs fuerza (compare English fort- vs force).

GOD

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:58 am 
Sumerul
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Jaaaaaa wrote:
This kinda shows how low my knowledge is, but...


-The Great Vowel Shift-
(changes in the long vowels from Middle to Modern English)

a: > E: > eI
E: > e: > i:
e: > i:
i: > @i > ai
o: > u
O: > o
u: > @u > au
[y > ju] (bracketed because I'm not sure about this one)

...and that is all that I know. I'll try to get in the Great Consonant Shift when I make sure I got that one right.

There's evidence that this happened in a certain order, gleaned from ceratin regional dialects of English. (you haven't put them in the right order)
Clearly this was a chain shift whereby either:
1. the high vowels diphthongised and 'pulled' the rest of the vowels upwards in the vowel space,
2. the lower vowels raised and 'pushed' the rest of the vowels upwards; when /i:/ and /u:/ couldn't go any higher they diphthongised, or
3. the mid vowels raised, pushing the high vowels to diphthongise and pulling the lower vowels to raise as well.

No English dialect did not undergo the GVS and keep the ME vowels, so there is a problematic situation in which it seems impossible to work out what has happened in what order.

The way to find out the right one is to look at dialects where they still have /u:/ in <house>, for example, particularly in the North.
Here a pre-GVS sound change changed all /o o:/ to /2 2:/, and in some cases this raised with the rest of the GVS to /y:/. However in these selfsame dialects the /u:/ did not diphthongise where /i:/ did (/i:/ diphtongised in all dialects), so this is evidence that the /u:/ was pushed by the /o:/ in most dialects.
Likewise here ME /O:/ is still pronounced /O:/, cf. <no> is /nO:/. This therefore shows that /O:/ was pulled up by /o:/ in most dialects.
Therfore 3. is the correct order of things.

Therefore for front vowels:
1. e: -> i:
2. i: -> @i -> ai
3. E: -> e: -> i:
4. a: -> E: -> e: -> eI

The evidence for the last step is again in northern and Scottish dialects where it is still /e:/ or /e/.

And for back vowels:
1. o: -> u:
2. u: -> @u -> au
3. O: -> o: -> oU

By analogy with the front vowel case, and with evidence from Scots dialects, that last medial step is also correct.
And to get to our modern pronounciation there were extra changes as well, such as /U/ -> /V/, /oU/ -> /@U/ (in RP), etc.

Also, Jhex, /y/ did not partake in the GVS, as during or before ME it had become /i/ (as had /2/ -> /e/).
/y/ that came from French borrowings did become /yu/, but because /y/ was not in English's phonology and this was the best equivalent.
Presumably if it had partaken, though, it would become /@y/ then /&y/ or /Qy/, by analogy with the other high vowels, but only if /2/ had partaken as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:09 am 
Sanci
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Quote:
Also, Jhex, /y/ did not partake in the GVS

What was the original vowel in <few>? I had always thought it was /y/ which became /ju/.

GOD

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:04 am 
Lebom
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I think it was /eu/, but I'm not sure.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:18 am 
Avisaru
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civman2000 wrote:
SOme of those changes are only for a specific dialect. FOr example, /ts dz/ went to /T/ and only then to /s/ in certain dialects. Also, the fate of /L/ varies widely, the most common being /j\/, /j/, and /Z/, though I've also heard of retaining /L/, /dZ/, and even /S/ (though never the /x/ that you have). Also, <j> is /x/, /X/, and /h/ in different dialects.


Erm, yeah, I forgot to mention these were for Latin American Spanish. The varying pronounciations can easily be figured out, though.

civman2000 wrote:
Quote:
ks > js > S / V_V

This continued on to /x/.


Yeah, that should go before where I said "S > x / _"

civman2000 wrote:
Quote:
g > ? / V_V

What are some examples of this? What about, say, lago (which I presume is from latin lagus or lagum)? Why isn't it *lao?


Close. 'Lago' comes from Latin lacum, and the g > ? change occured before the /k/ voiced to g.

I'll give you an example as soon as I find one...

civman2000 wrote:
Also, some syllable initial /t/ went to /ts/>/T/. This is most visible in the -cion endings, but I also think it may have happened in things like fuerte vs fuerza (compare English fort- vs force).


I already have that: tj > ts > s / #_, C_ and tj > dz > z > s / V_V

(where [s] can also be [T], as in Castillian)

According to the sites where I found this, Vulgar Latin <ti> was pronounced as /tj/

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:35 am 
Sanci
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Quote:
I already have that: tj > ts > s / #_, C_ and tj > dz > z > s / V_V

(where [s] can also be [T], as in Castillian)

According to the sites where I found this, Vulgar Latin <ti> was pronounced as /tj/

That still doesn't quite work though, because that would give tion>/tjon/>/tson/>*/Ton/ instead of /Tjon/. Perhaps it was just irregular that that ending kept the /j/?

GOD

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:46 am 
Avisaru
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civman2000 wrote:
Quote:
I already have that: tj > ts > s / #_, C_ and tj > dz > z > s / V_V

(where [s] can also be [T], as in Castillian)

According to the sites where I found this, Vulgar Latin <ti> was pronounced as /tj/

That still doesn't quite work though, because that would give tion>/tjon/>/tson/>*/Ton/ instead of /Tjon/. Perhaps it was just irregular that that ending kept the /j/?

GOD


Possibly. Or the change should actually be t > ts > s / #_j, C_j?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:00 pm 
Sanci
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Maknas wrote:
civman2000 wrote:
Quote:
I already have that: tj > ts > s / #_, C_ and tj > dz > z > s / V_V

(where [s] can also be [T], as in Castillian)

According to the sites where I found this, Vulgar Latin <ti> was pronounced as /tj/

That still doesn't quite work though, because that would give tion>/tjon/>/tson/>*/Ton/ instead of /Tjon/. Perhaps it was just irregular that that ending kept the /j/?

GOD


Possibly. Or the change should actually be t > ts > s / #_j, C_j?

Maybe, but what about, say, fuerza? What Latin does that come from? Just as a guess, if it comes from *fortiam or something like that then in that case the /j/ was lost...

GOD

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:40 pm 
Avisaru
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civman2000 wrote:
Maknas wrote:
civman2000 wrote:
Quote:
I already have that: tj > ts > s / #_, C_ and tj > dz > z > s / V_V

(where [s] can also be [T], as in Castillian)

According to the sites where I found this, Vulgar Latin <ti> was pronounced as /tj/

That still doesn't quite work though, because that would give tion>/tjon/>/tson/>*/Ton/ instead of /Tjon/. Perhaps it was just irregular that that ending kept the /j/?

GOD


Possibly. Or the change should actually be t > ts > s / #_j, C_j?

Maybe, but what about, say, fuerza? What Latin does that come from? Just as a guess, if it comes from *fortiam or something like that then in that case the /j/ was lost...

GOD


My Latin dictionary doesn't give a likely direct prediccessor for fuerza... It gives fortis for 'strong', but as for 'strength', it gives fortit?d?, which wouldn't become 'fuerza', but something like *fuertudo or *huertudo.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:53 pm 
Avisaru
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I wrote:
civman2000 wrote:
Quote:
g > ? / V_V

What are some examples of this? What about, say, lago (which I presume is from latin lagus or lagum)? Why isn't it *lao?


Close. 'Lago' comes from Latin lacum, and the g > ? change occured before the /k/ voiced to g.

I'll give you an example as soon as I find one...


Alright, here you go:

Latin magistrum 'teacher' > Spanish maestro

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:58 pm 
Sanci
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Quote:
My Latin dictionary doesn't give a likely direct prediccessor for fuerza... It gives fortis for 'strong', but as for 'strength', it gives fortit?d?, which wouldn't become 'fuerza', but something like *fuertudo or *huertudo.

Indeed, *hortudo or *fortudo woulf be expected, but a google search seems to suggest that vulgar latin replaced "vim", another word for "strength", with *fortiam, which presumably would be the root of fuerza...Does your latin dictionary have an entry that might correspond to "esfuerza" ("effortiam"?)?

GOD

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:42 pm 
Avisaru
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civman2000 wrote:
Quote:
My Latin dictionary doesn't give a likely direct prediccessor for fuerza... It gives fortis for 'strong', but as for 'strength', it gives fortit?d?, which wouldn't become 'fuerza', but something like *fuertudo or *huertudo.

Indeed, *hortudo or *fortudo woulf be expected, but a google search seems to suggest that vulgar latin replaced "vim", another word for "strength", with *fortiam, which presumably would be the root of fuerza...Does your latin dictionary have an entry that might correspond to "esfuerza" ("effortiam"?)?

GOD


Sorry, couldn't find one...

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:38 pm 
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fuerza's an irregular of some sort, I think. Are those double consonants up there like (ps > ss) correct? Spanish doesnt have any double consonants.

EDIT: -ción is not a native Spanish word ending. The native ending is in fact /Ton/, spelled -zón, but occurring in only a few words such as razón "reason". All the words that have ción are reborrowings from Latin.

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Last edited by Soap on Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:49 pm 
Avisaru
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Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Maryland
Mercator wrote:
fuerza's an irregular of some sort, I think. Are those double consonants up there like (ps > ss) correct? Spanish doesnt have any double consonants.


Yeah, you missed a rule given a bit further down: OO > O / _ (if O = O)

Latin ipse > esse > ese
Latin capt?re > cattar > catar

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:49 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:51 am
Posts: 192
Location: Ann Arbor
Maknas wrote:
rr > r / _


Maknas wrote:
Yeah, you missed a rule given a bit further down: OO > O / _ (if O = O)

Latin ipse > esse > ese
Latin capt?re > cattar > catar


rr doesn't merge with r: caro /ka4o/ vs. carro /karo/, pero vs perro, etc.

A missing one that came to mind is aj -> e, which comes sometime after kt -> jt: lactu:ca > lechuga.

You've skipped a few notable steps in the vowel development (e.g. evolution of an open/close distinction), but it's not a big problem in a sketch like this. One important thing, though, is that VL open e and o (i.e. CL ae/e, o) don't diphthongize to ie/ue before a palatal cluster; that is, CiV or a consonant cluster that yields jC: lectus > lecho, not *liecho, folia > hoja, etc.

I think I'll give French a shot.


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