Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Regarding Mbingmik, there indeed is some lexicon, as I PM-ed Cech on the other forum so I was able to include various loans from Proto-Mbingmik in Kopoıves.
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Pole, the wrote:Regarding Mbingmik, there indeed is some lexicon, as I PM-ed Cech on the other forum so I was able to include various loans from Proto-Mbingmik in Kopoıves.
I'll post this on the wiki soon. Loanwords from Proto-Isles are indicated; most of the other roots were made with correspondences to Pre-Wendoth in mind.in a PM on the other forum, Cedh wrote:Proto-Mbingmik itself was spoken closer to the western end of the mountain range, [...] but speakers of the daughterlanguages probably moved east relatively early after crossing the mountains, and maybe one or two groups even moved east on the northern side of the mountains (the Wendoth invasion came from a northeastern direction, not from straight east). [...]
I haven't done any definite work on the descendants of Proto-Mbingmik yet. There are a few phonologies I'd like to use (mostly developing towards a smaller phoneme inventory and fewer coda consonants), but no sound changes yet to get there. Grammatically, a majority of the descendants would probably evolve towards a more agglutinative morphosyntax (mostly prefixing), and the derivational system would tend to become fossilized. [...]
Also, here's the WIP lexicon for Proto-Mbingmik as it currently stands, at 384 words:Code: Select all
baem v. admire > kbaem v.stat be impressive bao pron. 1sg.nom pronoun bəńjee v. sigh, moan boap n.a jaw chaa v. fry chaay n.a dog > chkaay n.a large dog; alpha dog (in a pack) chaoŋ v.stat be young > chrəmaoŋ n.i youth, childhood chɛŋ n.i left side chmoo v.stat happen in the same timeframe; ~ 'when' chnaŋ n.i pot chŋaay v.stat far, distant > caʔŋaay n.i distance chpuŋ v. inhale, breathe chrean qu. much, many chruoŋ v. cross chuu v. succeed; accomplish > chnuu v.stat be successful chuʔ n.mass foreigners (back-formed from *mənchuʔ) > mənchuʔ n.h village (of a foreign people) (< PIsl. míntzuq 'clan') cieh v. fall cieŋ n.i bone cik v. dig cuok n.a sky cuol v.stat be acquainted with > cuńcuol n.h acquaintance cuom n.h person cuoŋ v. tie; tighten > chluoŋ n.a rope cut v. exceed cuup v. hear > cəcuup v. know, understand > chnucuup v.stat be wise > cuŋcuup v. teach deek v. lie down din pron. this (here) diŋ n.h family > diliŋ v.stat be related to doay v.stat by, with, due to, because of dum pron. 1sg.dat pronoun duoh pron. 1sg.acc pronoun duy n.a sea, ocean (< PIsl. dúy) əmao v. hit əmɛɛ v. hold; bring > muymɛɛ v.stat be carried; result from əŋgii v. smile, enjoy oneself, be delighted əpwan n.a forest hae adv. already hɛɛt v.stat be distinct > phɛɛt n.a type, kind, species heam n.i side, edge, boundary hep n.i box həkaay n.i mountain > həhkaay n.i mountain range > hilkaay v.stat high; steep həmnaʔ n.i cliff (< PIsl. hámnaq) həŋgwəy v.stat be strong hmao n.i grass; hay hmin v.stat be large hŋiem v.stat be silent, be quiet hrap v. die, fade, wilt hrie v.stat be red, be colorful keat v. rise > khreat v. raise, lift from the ground kha pron. 3sg.f.abs.fam pronoun khaam n.i nut (< PIsl. kukamh 'nuts (pl.)', reanalysed as reduplicated) khae cj. but khea n.a earth, soil, ground kheaŋ v. use > kamneaŋ v.stat be useful, be suitable > khreaŋ v. prepare khen v. see > khtyen n.h guard kheń n.a tail khəy v.stat rest, stay, wait khic n.a blood > khnic v. shed blood khiew n.h man > cəkhiew n.h group (of men) khiey v.stat be dry > khrəmiey n.i drought khluo n.h people, tribe, ethnicity > məŋkhluo n.h fellow tribesman khməy v.stat be brave khmuun v.stat happy, content > kaʔmuun n.i happiness khnae n.a claw; blade > kilnae v.stat sharp; deadly khpen n.a armpit, back of knee khral n.a moon khreal v. sing khruc v.stat be angry > kathruc n.a anger, fury khruʔ v. grow; derive from khtɛɛm n.a tongue khuy v.stat be small kɨəh adv. and then, next, subsequently ksac n.i sand ksɔɔ pron. 3sg.i.abs pronoun ksuk v. kill kuom v. support kuuc n.a fog, mist > kyuuc v. obscure, hide from view kuuy v. do > kəkuuy v. repeat, do sth. over and over kwaaʔ v. get, obtain kwaʔ v.stat blind kwəy n.i cloth kwip v. make, create > kukwip v. work intensively on sth.; refine, improve > khlɨɨp n.a tool kyao n.h grandparent kyɔm v. dwell kyul n.a wind, air laaw v.stat be ashamed, be embarrassed > ləlaaw v. do something stupid, make a mistake > luŋaaw v. expose, play a trick on sb., cause sb. to make a fool of themselves > phlaaw n.i blunder, faux pas lɛʔ pron. reflexive pronoun ('-self') leec n.a fire > ləndeec v. burn (intentionally); perform fire sacrifice > sleec n.a flame lep v.stat be near ləh pron. contrastive pronoun ('the other one') ləkat v.stat be dead ləkɔɔw n.h older sister ləmbrik v. wake up liet v.stat be forced to move > ləliet v.stat tremble lieʔ v.stat be white, be bright liiń v. turn, revolve > khliiń v.stat be busy; continue liiw n.h child mae n.i boat (< PIsl. máyh) > cumae n.h boat traveller mal v. feel, sense, know intuitively > mamnal v.stat be alert, be watchful mao n.h mother mbaay v. say (privately), confide > mbamnaay v.stat be an intimate friend of; trust > mumbaay v. listen to someone's worries > mimbaay v. whisper > kəmbaay v.stat be secret, be confidential > mburaay n.i secret mbak v. go, walk mbao n.a fish mbəmuy n.i meal mbəthum v. lick mbiim n.h woman > mbəmbiim n.h group (of women) mbream n.a finger > mbəsream v. point at sth. mbriw v. be polite, show respect to > mbuŋgriw v.stat be superior, be of high rank > mbəmbriw v.stat have good manners > mbathriw n.i politeness, respect > pəmbriw n.i gesture of goodwill, small favor > nəmbriw adv. politely mbrəw n.i horn mbrəy v. move away from, leave, abandon men qu. one məw par. (case particle: dative-benefactive) mieŋ n.h aunt (mother's sister or cousin or sister-in-law) miew v.stat be rotten mpaeŋ n.a skin muop v. make sth. turn into sth. muoh n.a insect muu v. wrap, roll up > pəmuu n.i roll, bundle, package myun pron. 2sg.acc.fam pronoun myuuk v. form, shape, create > muʔmyuuk v.stat resemble, be shaped like naay n.a mouth > nisaay v. whisper; notify nal v. forecast, predict > bənal n.a omen ndae n.h aunt (father's sister or cousin or sister-in-law) ndaʔ n.i cliff; edge ndɛk v.stat sit; be located > ndrəmɛk n.i position, place, situation, posture, stance (lit. 'state of sitting') ndɛp n.a hip ndek n.a eye ndeʔ v.stat be behind, be after ndiŋ v. say (in a normal conversation) > ndəndiŋ v. babble, talk too much > ndrəmiŋ n.i conversation > nduriŋ n.i topic ndɨɨʔ v. find, discover ndliiŋ v. remember > ndəŋgliiŋ n.i memory; myth ndluo n.a star ndrɛŋ n.h sibling, cousin > ndrɛŋ-ndrɛŋ n.h all one's relatives > mindrɛŋ n.h youngest brother or sister, nesthäkchen niiŋ pron. 2sg.m.nom.fgn pronoun nuk v. reach, arrive at > ndluk n.i path, way nuŋ v. know (facts) ńɛɛ v.stat agree with, be of the same opinion as, be in concord with > nindyɛɛ v. convince, persuade, win sb. over > nilɛɛ v.stat be in negotiation with > nińɛɛ v.stat side with, support sb's cause > khńɛɛ v.stat be similar to > kuńɛɛ v.stat disagree with, clash with, be at odds with > nimɛɛ n.i agreement, concord > niŋkɛɛ n.i peace ńe cj. and ńjal v. slap > ńjəńjal v. flap the wings ńjənao v. call, scream ńjul n.a needle > ńjisul v. sew; make clothes > ńjəkul n.a spear ŋgak v.stat be alive ŋgəmaay n.i hammock (< PIsl. gawmay kupim 'flying bed') ŋgəw pron. that (far away) ŋgəy n.a head ŋgiek v.stat be to the west > ŋgriek v. go westwards ŋgiik v.stat be within > ńjəŋgiik v.stat be in the middle of ŋgrae n.i stick ŋgoah v. jump ŋgut n.h uncle (mother's brother or cousin or brother-in-law) ŋgwɛt v. take ŋgween v. eat ŋgwɔl n.a beard ŋgyap v. experience, come across, undergo, survive (subject takes dative) ŋədiim v.stat be weak > ŋgrəndiim n.i weakness, flaw ŋim v. die > ŋglim v. be dying ŋkwaon v. help ŋteah n.a promise, pledge, vow, oath > ŋənteah v. make a promise, swear > ŋtieh v. rely on sb. pəkhrəy v.stat be to the south > prəkhrəy v. go southwards pha pron. 3sg.m.abs.fam pronoun phan n.a heart phań v. put, place phao v. might have; would not (< PIsl. -pawh 'subjunctive/irrealis') phean qu. all phkaa n.a flower phiel v. look, see phim n.i maple (< PIsl. pím) phiʔ v. come; approach > puŋhiʔ v. summon phnae v. send phnum n.i mountain phnuʔ n.i basket (< PIsl. punuq) phŋuk n.a hand phŋuut v. bathe, wash (tr.) phɔk v. drink phraʔ v.stat be under phrɛʔ v. sleep phrəw n.i path, way > pəndrəw v. clear the way; establish a trade route phrəw v. know (people); be friends with > pəngrəw n.a friendship phrəy n.h married couple > psərəy n.h spouse > phriəy v. marry phum n.a ear pieh v. remove, take away psaeŋ v.stat different puoh v.stat be to the east > phruoh v. go eastwards puol v. lift, carry pyuu v. suspend reeŋ v. block, obstruct > bareeŋ n.a wall, fence, shield rep qu. few rəngɔɔ v.stat be connected to > rəŋgaʔ pron. 1pl.excl.nom pronoun riem v. give > muʔriem v. receive riep v.stat be black, be dark > rəndiep v. paint (in dark colors) riet v. knead rɨɨk v. fight > ruŋɨɨk v. provoke > khrɨɨk v. be an enemy of > rənuuk v. be aggressive > ratɨɨk n.a war > cumrɨɨk n.h warrior ruoŋ n.a knee, elbow, shoulder, heel saa v. finish, get done with, fulfill sac v. laugh sbak n.a face; front sɛk v.stat be more seaʔ n.a water siim v. happen, occur > sŋiim n.a action, event, occasion, circumstances > sriim v. cause, instigate siiw v.stat take (a time); span (a length) > satiiw n.i duration; length sɨp qu. many sɔɔk v. break, fall apart suot v.stat do sth. for the benefit of sun pron. 2sg.nom.fam pronoun suu v.stat exist, be true > srəmuu n.i truth suʔ v. say publicly, announce, declare > sluʔ v.stat want to say something, wait impatiently for one's turn in a conversation > samnuʔ v.stat be well-known > səsuʔ v. issue a law, deliver a judgement > psuʔ n.i announcement, declaration > styuʔ n.h orator; herald sweec n.a neck taeń v.stat be torn into pieces > phtaeń n.i rags, tattered garments tɛɛ pron. 3sg.a.abs pronoun tean v. give (also used as a causative auxiliary verb; causee takes dative) > thnuon v. provide, offer thae n.h father thak v.stat worthless, unsuitable, defunct thaŋ cj. if thaem n.i chickpea (< PIsl. tawyimh) thɛɛc n.i root thɛʔ pron. 1sg.poss pronoun thiim v.stat be strong, be healthy thɨŋ n.a river thkiʔ n.h older brother thməń n.a tooth thməy v.stat new > thrəməy v. repair, polish thnɔm n.i medicine > təsnɔm v. treat a disease with medicinal herbs thŋaay n.a day; sun > tiŋaay v.stat bright, well-lit > ndəthŋaay n.a the next day > uthŋaay n.a the previous day threaʔ v. be lost tien n.a flame, spark > thnien v. light a fire təphao v.stat be to the north > trəphao v. go northwards tɨŋ v.stat be taut tɨʔ par. (case particle: ablative) tuoy n.a sun > mtuoy n.a torch tuŋ v. want, wish twań v. weave twɛɛ n.i gate, entrance > thkwɛɛ n.i main gate (of a house or village) tyaaŋ v. meet, visit, attend > thrəyaaŋ v. arrange a meeting > təlyaaŋ v. host (guests) > tityaaŋ v. meet regularly, know sb. very well > tintyaaŋ n.i meeting > cuntyaaŋ n.h guest, visitor, the person who one wants to meet tyak v.stat be flat > tuŋyak v. flatten tyuuŋ v.stat black, dark θəy par. (case particle: agentive) θɔɔ n.h uncle (father's brother or cousin or brother-in-law) θwɔɔń v.stat love > hlɔɔń v. fall in love > hrəwɔɔń v. flirt, tease > kswɔɔń v.stat be popular > miθwɔɔń v.stat like, be attracted to vɨɨ pron. that (nearby) wɛc v. try wənthiin n.a garden, orchard (< PIsl. wíntinq) yɛɛ pron. anaphoric pronoun ('the same one') yeam n.a nose yəthao v.stat be above yəw v. want, desire > yamnəw v.stat be desirable yɔɔk v. follow > cumyɔɔk n.h guide, scout yuk n.a arm, leg yuun v. drink ʔak par. (case particle: accusative/patientive) ʔiek qu. two ʔiŋ adv. (past tense marker) ʔɨɨy n.a foot
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Nice! I'd love to hear more about your efforts to link Ronquian and Mbingmik (somewhere private, of course). I've been fiddling with something similar myself, off and on.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
I don't know if it is really my place to ask this, but could Dumic instead represent an early outgroup from the other Pan-Tuysafan tongues? As in, all the other clades are closer related to each other than any single one is to Dumic? Maybe that's one way to explain away the weird geographic distribution.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
That's my opinion on this topic too. It also seems to be supported by the fact that Proto-Dumic is quite thoroughly head-final, whereas the other families all have much more varied word orders which tend to be head-initial rather than head-final. But I think we can say anything definitive about the structure of the macro-family only after the original Proto-Leic and Proto-Ronquian grammars will have been made public.TriceraTiger wrote:I don't know if it is really my place to ask this, but could Dumic instead represent an early outgroup from the other Pan-Tuysafan tongues? As in, all the other clades are closer related to each other than any single one is to Dumic? Maybe that's one way to explain away the weird geographic distribution.
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Is the Wendoth diachronics page still accurate?
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
That's a work-in-progress page by Alces, but I don't think he ever developed a language out of that. (There's also this page, which uses yet another series of sound changes.)
I'm not sure whether CatDoom's Yèwèdu starts off with the changes to any of those groups, but he can surely tell you.
I'm not sure whether CatDoom's Yèwèdu starts off with the changes to any of those groups, but he can surely tell you.
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Pole, the wrote:Is the Wendoth diachronics page still accurate?
Embarrassingly, I wasn't aware of that first document; I had only seen the draft in the second one. I had initially modeled what became Yèwèdu fairly closely on Alces' draft of Ajeddos, but there were several sound changes I ended up being somewhat unhappy with. I wanted to retain (part of) the Wendoth phonation distinction as a parallel with the two tones in Rrób Tè Jĕhnò (and possibly more distantly with the register system of Mhakh Thandim), and after doing more research on geminate consonants it made more sense to me that they geminate after stressed syllables, rather than before them. I also shifted gemination such that it occurs before words become uniformly stressed on the final syllable, which felt like it helped justify the change (which is now similar to the way that proto-Germanic gained phonemic voiced fricatives). Once I'd made those changes, I figured I might as well go in a different direction all together.Cedh wrote:That's a work-in-progress page by Alces, but I don't think he ever developed a language out of that. (There's also this page, which uses yet another series of sound changes.)
I'm not sure whether CatDoom's Yèwèdu starts off with the changes to any of those groups, but he can surely tell you.
Yèwèdu does, however, share several sound changes with Alces' proposed daughter:
*Both languages are descended from dialects of Wendoth in which <h> is /ɦ/, rather than /ʁ/
*Both languages shift Wendoth ə and (some instances of) a to ɛ
*Both languages shift Wendoth [nd] to [dd], though Yèwèdu extends this to [ŋg] as well
*Both languages elide "unmarked" penultimate vowels (this affects modally voiced vowels in Bweddos and short vowels in Yèwèdu)
Looking at the first document, it appears that all of Alces' proposed daughter families unpack breathy and creaky vowels, getting rid of the phonation distinction or shifting it to adjacent consonants, so Yèwèdu can't fit neatly into any of them. Ajeddos seems most closely aligned with Proto-Northwestern Wendoth. Proto-Northern Wendoth has a chain shift that resembles the one in Yèwèdu, and seems to be geographically situated in the right area to be the direct ancestor of my language, but the "peripheral Wendoth" languages seem to be the ones more likely to keep the phionation distinction.
I'm tempted to make some modifications to Yèwèdu to bring it roughly in line with southeastern Wendoth, and suggest a northward migration toward the coast, possibly facilitated by the introduction of bronze weaponry, which arrives roughly from the southeast (though I'm not sure how well this would work in the timeline we're developing). The features it has in common with northern Wendoth varieties would be the product of subsequent language contact. On the other hand, Yèwèdu could simply represent an isolate within the Wendoth family, standing alone as a sixth branch of the family. In any case, it's similarities to other branches could be explained by viewing its history in terms of a wave model, rather than a strict phylogenic tree.
Last edited by CatDoom on Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
(BTW, it's strictly speaking not necessary that the Wendoth family is really structured in the way Alces proposed - as long as the suggested languages haven't been decribed, the sound change lists can of course be changed. So both of you are free to make up a Wendoth branch independent of Alces' proposals.)
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
So here's something I've been tinkering with for a little while: a map that tries to rationalize the various regional maps on the wiki and show the general distribution of language families in Peliaš circa 1 YP:
http://i.imgur.com/rejr7dk.jpg
Here's a basic overview; note that this is a super rough first draft, and probably has many glaring errors:
*The monstrous purple blob of course represents the Western Language family. This is probably something of a high-water mark for the distribution of the Western languages, since by this point the areas south of the Tjakori plateau and possibly the plateau itself are already under the control of the Third Xšali Empire. I'm presuming that the region is still primarily western-speaking for now, since most of it has at this point been under Xšali control for less than a century.
In the west I favored the -500 YP Lukpanic Coast map over the animated map showing the spread of the Western languages, at least with regard to the area immediately to the north of the Lukpanic Coast, and left it blank as a region of uncertain (and probably diverse) linguistic affiliation.
*The dark blue in the far west of the Lukpanic coast represents the area where Lukpanic languages are still spoken (not including an island to the southeast that doesn't seem to appear on the base map I used). Based on the statement that Isi was the last of the Lukpanic city-states to fall to Western Speakers, I'm assuming that the Lukpanic languages did not recede significantly after -500 YP.
*The orange color in and immediately around Xšalad represents the !Ho languages, though They may extend further southwest into the interior of southern Peliaš. I have taken the liberty of extending the family east of Xšalad, based on a statement on the Wiki that some languages related to Xšali are spoken to the east of the empire.
*The yellow area represents the Hitatc languages, whose distribution distribution remains more or less stable, as far as I can tell, between around -2000 YP and a few centuries after the time period represented in the map.
*The dark green areas represent the Peninsular family, though I've left their distribution on and around the peninsula more or less unchanged from the -2000 YP map.
*The dark red north of the peninsula and the brighter red in the Isthmus and Siixtaguna represents the two suviving branches of the Eigə-Isthmus Family, with Miwan in the south and Isthmus in the north. A lot of the territory I gave to the Isthmus family is speculation on my part; for the sake of this map, I made the assumption that the first areas of northern Siixtaguna absorbed by the Kennan were areas that were culturally and linguistically similar, speaking related Isthmus languages. Then I assigned the Isthmus family the western coast of the subcontinent based on the hypothesis that the Kennan and neighboring peoples were descended from Isthmus-speakers who had migrated to northern Siixtaguna along the coast.
*The light blue area in the center of the map naturally represents the descendants of Ndak-Ta, while the darker blue area to their immediate northwest represents the other Talo-Edastian languages. The very light blue area between the Western and Talo-Edastian spheres represents the Xoronic languages, based on the assumption that the Meshi had been entirely assimilated into Habeo culture by 1 YP.
*The light green along the coast of Siixtaguna represents the Nualis-Takuña languages, though I wasn't certain exactly how far northward and inland they extended.
*The yellow-orange color in between Peliaš and Tuysáfa naturally represents the isles languages.
*The dull gold color in western Tuysáfa represents the decendants of Wendoth, while the dark brown area represents the Mbingmik languages.
In general I tried to use natural features to define the boundaries of language groups when they weren't already depicted on a map using the same base map that I used. Let me know what you think! I'd love to make this as accurate as possible.
Edit: Also, I'm not sure where to put Dimana Lokud in the western mountains, and the boundaries I set for the western languages in that general area are pretty arbitrary.
http://i.imgur.com/rejr7dk.jpg
Here's a basic overview; note that this is a super rough first draft, and probably has many glaring errors:
*The monstrous purple blob of course represents the Western Language family. This is probably something of a high-water mark for the distribution of the Western languages, since by this point the areas south of the Tjakori plateau and possibly the plateau itself are already under the control of the Third Xšali Empire. I'm presuming that the region is still primarily western-speaking for now, since most of it has at this point been under Xšali control for less than a century.
In the west I favored the -500 YP Lukpanic Coast map over the animated map showing the spread of the Western languages, at least with regard to the area immediately to the north of the Lukpanic Coast, and left it blank as a region of uncertain (and probably diverse) linguistic affiliation.
*The dark blue in the far west of the Lukpanic coast represents the area where Lukpanic languages are still spoken (not including an island to the southeast that doesn't seem to appear on the base map I used). Based on the statement that Isi was the last of the Lukpanic city-states to fall to Western Speakers, I'm assuming that the Lukpanic languages did not recede significantly after -500 YP.
*The orange color in and immediately around Xšalad represents the !Ho languages, though They may extend further southwest into the interior of southern Peliaš. I have taken the liberty of extending the family east of Xšalad, based on a statement on the Wiki that some languages related to Xšali are spoken to the east of the empire.
*The yellow area represents the Hitatc languages, whose distribution distribution remains more or less stable, as far as I can tell, between around -2000 YP and a few centuries after the time period represented in the map.
*The dark green areas represent the Peninsular family, though I've left their distribution on and around the peninsula more or less unchanged from the -2000 YP map.
*The dark red north of the peninsula and the brighter red in the Isthmus and Siixtaguna represents the two suviving branches of the Eigə-Isthmus Family, with Miwan in the south and Isthmus in the north. A lot of the territory I gave to the Isthmus family is speculation on my part; for the sake of this map, I made the assumption that the first areas of northern Siixtaguna absorbed by the Kennan were areas that were culturally and linguistically similar, speaking related Isthmus languages. Then I assigned the Isthmus family the western coast of the subcontinent based on the hypothesis that the Kennan and neighboring peoples were descended from Isthmus-speakers who had migrated to northern Siixtaguna along the coast.
*The light blue area in the center of the map naturally represents the descendants of Ndak-Ta, while the darker blue area to their immediate northwest represents the other Talo-Edastian languages. The very light blue area between the Western and Talo-Edastian spheres represents the Xoronic languages, based on the assumption that the Meshi had been entirely assimilated into Habeo culture by 1 YP.
*The light green along the coast of Siixtaguna represents the Nualis-Takuña languages, though I wasn't certain exactly how far northward and inland they extended.
*The yellow-orange color in between Peliaš and Tuysáfa naturally represents the isles languages.
*The dull gold color in western Tuysáfa represents the decendants of Wendoth, while the dark brown area represents the Mbingmik languages.
In general I tried to use natural features to define the boundaries of language groups when they weren't already depicted on a map using the same base map that I used. Let me know what you think! I'd love to make this as accurate as possible.
Edit: Also, I'm not sure where to put Dimana Lokud in the western mountains, and the boundaries I set for the western languages in that general area are pretty arbitrary.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Awesome map CatDoom
With regards to the southern extant of the Western languages, it seems like Xšali will spread back up towards Tjakori (going by the histories of the Empire of Athale and Xšalad). Or maybe not; Western speakers could remain a nice buffer between Athale and Xšalad, with alternating loyalties between the northern and the southern empires.
I always envisioned the speakers of Shtasa to become an isolated, mountainous bunch after their height of glory between the Second and Third Empires of Xšalad. Unfortunately, I don't think Radius ever put out substantial vocab lists or grammar sketches of Xšali for me to make a Xšali-infused Western lang.
With regards to the southern extant of the Western languages, it seems like Xšali will spread back up towards Tjakori (going by the histories of the Empire of Athale and Xšalad). Or maybe not; Western speakers could remain a nice buffer between Athale and Xšalad, with alternating loyalties between the northern and the southern empires.
I always envisioned the speakers of Shtasa to become an isolated, mountainous bunch after their height of glory between the Second and Third Empires of Xšalad. Unfortunately, I don't think Radius ever put out substantial vocab lists or grammar sketches of Xšali for me to make a Xšali-infused Western lang.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
I agree with you about Xšali expanding northward, I'm just assuming that it's a process that still in its relatively early stages at the time of this map. I could add cross-hatching or something to indicate the transition underway.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Looks awesome!
Cuix ticpiä cuitlatl itic motzontecomauh ?
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Thanks! I can't take much credit, though; it's based more or less entirely on other people's work. The physical underlay map is by Pocketful of Songs, and the cultural information comes mostly from a bunch of maps by Cedh, Pocketful of Songs, TheDukeofNuke, Arzena, and The Devilcat. I mostly just tried to reconcile all the different maps and extrapolated based on information available on the Wiki.caedes wrote:Looks awesome!
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
The map looks very good indeed! Great work! Here are some comments I want to make:
- First of all, pocketful's base map is great in many regards, but it contains some errors because it was based on an out-of-date idea of where some of the mountain ranges should go. In particular, there should be a minor north-to-south mountain range along the western coast (because otherwise the Western steppe would receive too much rain to be a steppe) rather than the west-to-east range north of the Lukpanic cities, and the relatively high Šišin mountains should continue east all along the southern coast of Siixtaguna to the eastern tip of Tymytỳs. Both of these might make some difference regarding the exact distribution of language families in the respective areas.
- I've imagined Zeluzh to be further west (i.e. above the letters "ZELU").
- The currently empty island between Ttiruku and Tymytỳs is probably Isles-speaking as well.
And finally I'd like to correct what seems to be a persistent typo: the name of the continent is Peilaš /ˈpelaʃ/ (with <i> coming before <l>), from Fáralo pei ‘big, large’ and laš ‘land’.
- First of all, pocketful's base map is great in many regards, but it contains some errors because it was based on an out-of-date idea of where some of the mountain ranges should go. In particular, there should be a minor north-to-south mountain range along the western coast (because otherwise the Western steppe would receive too much rain to be a steppe) rather than the west-to-east range north of the Lukpanic cities, and the relatively high Šišin mountains should continue east all along the southern coast of Siixtaguna to the eastern tip of Tymytỳs. Both of these might make some difference regarding the exact distribution of language families in the respective areas.
I've been thinking that Xšali alone would cover almost all of the orange area, and that the related languages you mention would be spoken in the currently white area further east.CatDoom wrote: *The orange color in and immediately around Xšalad represents the !Ho languages, though they may extend further southwest into the interior of southern Peliaš. I have taken the liberty of extending the family east of Xšalad, based on a statement on the Wiki that some languages related to Xšali are spoken to the east of the empire.
Yes - but I think the eastern third or so of the yellow area, especially the southeast, should be Miwan-speaking instead. However, there are also some isolated Hitatc speakers at the coast, at the mouth of the Şepamã river which forms the northern border of Peninsular territory.*The yellow area represents the Hitatc languages, whose distribution distribution remains more or less stable, as far as I can tell, between around -2000 YP and a few centuries after the time period represented in the map.
A variant of Meshi is still spoken even 1000 years later than that, along and east of the Meshi river which meets the Eigə from the north, right next to the first A of the word "Aiwa" on the map. It's very well possible that the region of Habeo dominance extends through most of the area marked in light blue, but there should be a stable pocket of Meshi speakers somewhere, possibly along the upper reaches of their river.The very light blue area between the Western and Talo-Edastian spheres represents the Xoronic languages, based on the assumption that the Meshi had been entirely assimilated into Habeo culture by 1 YP.
In the south it looks good to me (because of the mountains I mentioned earlier), but I think it's quite likely that some of the northeastern Nu-Tak groups would have spread inland along the river which meets the sea just south of Kennan territory. Also, Núalís itself is spoken on Tymytỳs, and I think most of the Tymytỳs archipelago would actually be dominated by Nu-Tak languages, with Máotatšàlì covering only a significant portion of Tymytỳs island.*The light green along the coast of Siixtaguna represents the Nualis-Takuña languages, though I wasn't certain exactly how far northward and inland they extended.
- Most of the islands in the Ttiruku Arc are highly diverse linguistically, especially in the east. Ttiruku itself is supposed to host about a hundred languages from a dozen families or so, similar to New Guinea in our world. Only in parts of Šumarušuxi have Isles speakers been able to completely displace languages from other families.*The yellow-orange color in between Peliaš and Tuysáfa naturally represents the isles languages.
- I've imagined Zeluzh to be further west (i.e. above the letters "ZELU").
- The currently empty island between Ttiruku and Tymytỳs is probably Isles-speaking as well.
I'd say Dimana Lokud is probably spoken in the region just northeast of the words "western steppe". I would also draw the eastern boundary of the Western family slightly differently: As I see it, whole Western tribes crossed the mountains only three times: first the Tjakori/Gezoro branch (at the plateau), then pre-Shtåså (also at the plateau), then pre-Ayčasamo (northeast of the Wañelín). The Tjakori/Gezoro/Shtåså and Ayčasamo areas probably shouldn't be contiguous; I think that the higher northwestern reaches of the Tjakori watershed might be a refuge for a few older languages, and the higher southwestern reaches of the Eigə watershed would be Habeo-speaking.Edit: Also, I'm not sure where to put Dimana Lokud in the western mountains, and the boundaries I set for the western languages in that general area are pretty arbitrary.
And finally I'd like to correct what seems to be a persistent typo: the name of the continent is Peilaš /ˈpelaʃ/ (with <i> coming before <l>), from Fáralo pei ‘big, large’ and laš ‘land’.
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Thanks a ton for the feadback! I'm working to incorporate your suggestions, but I'm not so sure about expanding the !Ho languages further east, since the description page for Xšalad describes "numerous languages unrelated to !Ho or Peninsular" between the !Ho and Peninsular languages.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Here's a second draft, incorporating Cedh's suggestions: http://i.imgur.com/ZxpyROq.jpg.
I added an isles-speaking area south of Zeluzh, to represent the Kiizwaye, and changed the color of the !Ho languages to make it more distinct from the Isles family. Dimana Lokud (or, rather, descendant(s) thereof) is represented in pink. The light blue area north of the Meshi (the dark red area of northern Xōron Eiel is meant to represent Damak; the Habeo languages are spoken to the south and southwest.
I'm curious about what others think of the distribution I've assigned to the isles and non-isles languages on the islands. Mostly I went by topography, with the isles languages extending to higher elevations in the west than it does in the east. I also assumed that the population of non-isles speakers was densest around rivers, and I generally left them in control of more riverside territory than the isles speakers.
I added an isles-speaking area south of Zeluzh, to represent the Kiizwaye, and changed the color of the !Ho languages to make it more distinct from the Isles family. Dimana Lokud (or, rather, descendant(s) thereof) is represented in pink. The light blue area north of the Meshi (the dark red area of northern Xōron Eiel is meant to represent Damak; the Habeo languages are spoken to the south and southwest.
I'm curious about what others think of the distribution I've assigned to the isles and non-isles languages on the islands. Mostly I went by topography, with the isles languages extending to higher elevations in the west than it does in the east. I also assumed that the population of non-isles speakers was densest around rivers, and I generally left them in control of more riverside territory than the isles speakers.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Anyone going to the next Language Creation Conference (LCC6), which takes place on April 25th-26th in Horsham, UK (south of London)? I'll be there, and I'd love to meet other Akana contributors on the occasion...
Blog: audmanh.wordpress.com
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
Conlangs: Ronc Tyu | Buruya Nzaysa | Doayâu | Tmaśareʔ
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
I'd love to come, but I'm afraid I'm already booked up on that date!
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
I'm still here! Well, I have been away for years, having not done any conlanging since 2012, so I haven't been keeping track of anything that's going on with Akana. But I took a notion to have a look at it just last week, and it seems I've got into it again... It's great that Túysafa is being developed further, and it's very nice to see Proto-Mbingmik and Yewedu! Having reread the page on Wendoth I wrote 5 years ago, I've noticed that there are some confusing and inconsistent parts in it, so I'm currently trying to rewrite the page and clarify things. But I will keep the actual content of the language unchanged so it doesn't mess up the correspondances with Proto-Mbingmik and Yewedu. I need to update the lexicon too, because it seems to be missing a lot of words that are mentioned on the main page. And, I've given Pre-Wendoth a page of its own. I did have a sketch of the language saved on my computer, which I never put up on the wiki, but unfortunately I never transferred it over to my current computer. So I've tried to write down what I can remember about the language on that page (and I've tried to reconstruct the parts I don't remember).Firstly, does anybody know if Alces is still around? He has the beginnings of a Wendoth daughter langauge posted to the wiki, though it looks like it's been years since he worked on it. I was just curious to know if he had any unpublished notes/general thoughts about the Wendoth family beyond what's on the wiki.
Cedh, do you have a list of the correspondances between Pre-Wendoth and Proto-Mbingmik somewhere? I have noticed a few already, like mb with f, ch and c with s, kh with k, g and x. It might be useful to know them if I want to add new words to the Wendoth lexicon, because then I can make some of them cognate with Proto-Mbingmik words.
About the Wendoth/Diachronics page, I had completely forgotten it existed, so I'm not bothered if the descendants of Wendoth end up developing in a completely different way compared to what I suggested on that page; you can consider it obsolete. I did, just a few days ago, draw up a tentative map of the geographic spread of the family (warning: it's not a very pretty map):
The red area is the Urheimat, the dotted lines show the boundaries between three top-level divisions (which I've been thinking of as North Wendoth, East Wendoth and South Wendoth), and the other lines show the extent of the family's range (the inner one at -1500 YP, the outer one at some later time, maybe 0 YP?). The labels each correspond to a different language at the later time. I made this map before I noticed that Yewedu and the Ronquian/Leic families existed, so it might need to be adjusted to fit them in, and of course I'm not bothered if the details need to be changed.
I haven't thought much about the linguistic development of the family. I was thinking of putting my draft descendant, Ajeddos, into the North Wendoth subgroup, so other languages in that subgroup would probably have some similarities with Ajeddos, evolving an obscenely large consonant inventory, etc. But the East Wendoth and South Wendoth subgroups could develop any way
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Wonderfully.
By the way, I have done some fiddling with the two families and also found some corrensopndences. Unfortunately, I haven't got the file on the computer where I am living now.
(I also made some hypotheses, e.g. about the Proto-Mbi-Wen having different series in non-dorsal stops (think /b d/ vs /p t/ vs /mp nt/ or so) and dorsal ones (think /c k/ vs /ch kh/ or so).)
By the way, I have done some fiddling with the two families and also found some corrensopndences. Unfortunately, I haven't got the file on the computer where I am living now.
(I also made some hypotheses, e.g. about the Proto-Mbi-Wen having different series in non-dorsal stops (think /b d/ vs /p t/ vs /mp nt/ or so) and dorsal ones (think /c k/ vs /ch kh/ or so).)
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Thanks Alces; I'm a little embarrassed I didn't notice your reply! I actually rather like that map; very dense but not entirely unreadable. My Wendoth descendant, Yewedu, would be located in the area currently labelled as "NW3," though I based the initial changes on what you had laid out for "proto-southeastern-Wendoth." I've never been entirely happy with some of the sound changes, though; I'm not sure how likely it is for glottal stops to become other kinds of stops through assimilation, and it seems a bit odd that the language loses breathy voice on vowels only to get it back not long afterward. Would it be alright with you if I laid claim to proto-Eastern Wendoth, and extend the sub-family a bit farther north in order to suit my purposes?
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
That's fine with me
I've drawn up some notes on two more Wendoth descendants now as well:
I have also revamped the Wendoth phonology and morphology sections more or less to my satisfaction now. Syntax and the lexicon should be updated soon as well. I added a new text too, which might be a fun one to translate into other languages
I've drawn up some notes on two more Wendoth descendants now as well:
- Hỳng, a language spoken in the southeast part of the EW area, close to Wihəs (with some nice developments like p_G > k, t_G > t_w > p and ts > tT > tf; I had fun writing the sound changes for this one )
- and Mboroth, which is just a set of correspondances at the moment, which I haven't put on the wiki yet. But this will be spoken on the southwestern peninsula where Proto-Isles was spoken.
Code: Select all
Wendoth
.. Hỳng
.. East Wendoth (now covering an area extending further to the north)
.... Yewedu
.. North Wendoth
.... (Ajeddos) (it will probably end up having a different name)
.. South Wendoth
.... Mboroth
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Good stuff!
I do have a question regarding the usage of Wendoth's locative prepositions. The possessive clitic -į precedes its object, attaching to the possessor. However, in your new sample text the locative clitics -ta and -zha seem to come after their objects and attach to them. Is this always the position they take in the sentence?
If so, I'm thinking of effectively turning their Yewedu reflexes into locative and ablative cases, while the other Wendoth prepositions mostly become defunct.
I do have a question regarding the usage of Wendoth's locative prepositions. The possessive clitic -į precedes its object, attaching to the possessor. However, in your new sample text the locative clitics -ta and -zha seem to come after their objects and attach to them. Is this always the position they take in the sentence?
If so, I'm thinking of effectively turning their Yewedu reflexes into locative and ablative cases, while the other Wendoth prepositions mostly become defunct.
Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)
Yes--I've decided that, at least in an early stage of Wendoth, the prepositional clitics were postpositional, so -ta and -zha act as postpositions in that text. I think my initial motivation for making that change was that the instrumental case seemed a bit tacked-on and not really integrated into the grammar, so it seemed better to me to have -shã be just another adpositional clitic, albeit one that developed into a case suffix in all the daughter languages. But in order for the adpositional clitics to develop into case suffixes, they would have had to be postpositions. This does mean Wendoth now violates one of Greenberg's universals, since it has primary VSO word order in transitive sentences, and the universal says that primary VSO word order implies prepositions. So we would expect the daughter languages to resolve the situation, turning some of the postpositional clitics into case suffixes and the rest into prepositions (I'll have to add a note on this to the page). I will also probably temper the violation a little when I update the syntax section by making Wendoth have relatively free word order, with VSO one of the most common word orders in transitive sentences but not outright dominant.
This change of postpositions to prepositions is part of a general trend: I've decided that, originally, Pre-Wendoth was mainly head-final, but it began to develop more and more head-initial constructions as it developed into Wendoth. I'm not sure what my original conception of Pre-Wendoth syntax was, since I've lost all my old files on Pre-Wendoth, but I don't think I ever fleshed it out very much. The thing is, I understood that understanding the phonological and morphological history of the language was a good idea if I wanted to develop an interesting phonology and morphology for the language. But I thought syntax would be different, and that it wouldn't be so necessary to understand the syntactic history. That turned out to be wrong In fact I've never been very happy with Wendoth's syntax. It's always felt to me like a collection of parts which don't fit together very well as a whole. But now that I have an idea of the history of the syntax, I think I will be able to feel more comfortable with it.
For example, I've thought of a way I might be able to explain the situation where VSO order is common in transitive sentences but SV word order is more usual in intransitive sentences. Perhaps there was originally a verb *ga meaning 'give', which was used as a pro-verb meaning 'do to' as in 'Please don't do that to me'. But there was no equivalent pro-verb meaning just 'do'. Just as in English we can say things like 'He hit her, John did', Pre-Wendoth speakers started using constructions like *pa ʔamuŋ ka Zon Meriʔa ga (literally 'He hit her, John gave this to Mary'), with the clause *pa ʔamuŋ ka acting as an object of *ga. There's SVO order in this clause for some reason; perhaps pronouns behaved differently with regards to word order, as in French. Over time, this construction became less and less marked, the ga element at the end tended to be dropped, and the pronouns became agreement suffixes, so we ended up with VSO poųmuq Zeng Ndarų 'John hit Mary'. I'll need to work out more of the details here, but I'll probably end up making something along those lines "official".
Possibly, this development was the initial spark that started the move away from head-final word order, in which case the violation of Greenberg's universal can be put into a perspective where it is, perhaps, less alarming: it's simply due to the fact that this snapshot of Wendoth happens to occur during a short period where the shift to VSO word order has already happened, but the order of adpositions has not "caught up" with it yet.
Anyway, the upshot is that for Yewedu specifically, the scenario you propose is fully possible, indeed quite a natural development of the Wendoth adpositions. But it would also be entirely possible for the adpositions to remain as prepositions in Yewedu (if that was your original conception of them), if you would prefer that, since that would also be a natural development.
This change of postpositions to prepositions is part of a general trend: I've decided that, originally, Pre-Wendoth was mainly head-final, but it began to develop more and more head-initial constructions as it developed into Wendoth. I'm not sure what my original conception of Pre-Wendoth syntax was, since I've lost all my old files on Pre-Wendoth, but I don't think I ever fleshed it out very much. The thing is, I understood that understanding the phonological and morphological history of the language was a good idea if I wanted to develop an interesting phonology and morphology for the language. But I thought syntax would be different, and that it wouldn't be so necessary to understand the syntactic history. That turned out to be wrong In fact I've never been very happy with Wendoth's syntax. It's always felt to me like a collection of parts which don't fit together very well as a whole. But now that I have an idea of the history of the syntax, I think I will be able to feel more comfortable with it.
For example, I've thought of a way I might be able to explain the situation where VSO order is common in transitive sentences but SV word order is more usual in intransitive sentences. Perhaps there was originally a verb *ga meaning 'give', which was used as a pro-verb meaning 'do to' as in 'Please don't do that to me'. But there was no equivalent pro-verb meaning just 'do'. Just as in English we can say things like 'He hit her, John did', Pre-Wendoth speakers started using constructions like *pa ʔamuŋ ka Zon Meriʔa ga (literally 'He hit her, John gave this to Mary'), with the clause *pa ʔamuŋ ka acting as an object of *ga. There's SVO order in this clause for some reason; perhaps pronouns behaved differently with regards to word order, as in French. Over time, this construction became less and less marked, the ga element at the end tended to be dropped, and the pronouns became agreement suffixes, so we ended up with VSO poųmuq Zeng Ndarų 'John hit Mary'. I'll need to work out more of the details here, but I'll probably end up making something along those lines "official".
Possibly, this development was the initial spark that started the move away from head-final word order, in which case the violation of Greenberg's universal can be put into a perspective where it is, perhaps, less alarming: it's simply due to the fact that this snapshot of Wendoth happens to occur during a short period where the shift to VSO word order has already happened, but the order of adpositions has not "caught up" with it yet.
Anyway, the upshot is that for Yewedu specifically, the scenario you propose is fully possible, indeed quite a natural development of the Wendoth adpositions. But it would also be entirely possible for the adpositions to remain as prepositions in Yewedu (if that was your original conception of them), if you would prefer that, since that would also be a natural development.