Personal names between languages

[ol bofosh]

When it comes to logic and elegance, nothing can beat the English spelling.

Yeah, I've eaten my bread, and thought it through, although I'm tough I cough!


JAL

The curse of my surname. No one gets it right... "Mr. Broo, Brow, Broa..." "Bruff!"

I don't mind if in Spain they call me /braf/ or /broug/, or the French, /brug/. It's confusing enough for the English.

[echt]

The curse of my surname. No one gets it right... "Mr. Broo, Brow, Broa..." "Bruff!"

I don't mind if in Spain they call me /braf/ or /broug/, or the French, /brug/. It's confusing enough for the English.

When I was teaching English, I remember correcting someone for pronouncing "Fulghum", as in Robert Fulghum, of "Everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten" fame /ˈfʊldʒəm/. I had to tell him I was wrong when I learned it really is pronounced that way, rather than /ˈfʊlgəm/. I was like "I told you not even native speakers always know how to pronounce things".

[linguoboy]

A few people have asked me before why I chose to adopt a Chinese surname for speaking to Chinese people.

If they'd ever seen the visible relief on the faces of Chinese-speakers I'd handed my card to after they'd first noticed my actual name and then had a moment to take in the fact that there was a parallel Chinese version, those queries would've proven completely unnecessary.

[Viktor77]

A few people have asked me before why I chose to adopt a Chinese surname for speaking to Chinese people.

If they'd ever seen the visible relief on the faces of Chinese-speakers I'd handed my card to after they'd first noticed my actual name and then had a moment to take in the fact that there was a parallel Chinese version, those queries would've proven completely unnecessary.

I have a lot of Chinese students and I am openly thankful they adopt Western names. When they don't I always get so flustered. Some are pretty easy in English but some are not and you don't want to overpronounce it and look like a pompous, potentially offensive ass, but you also don't want to completely butcher it either. They actually usually pick quite pretty Western names. I'm not sure where they are getting these names, most haven't been given to children for 100 years, but they are nice names.

I actually get to know them so well as say Daisy and they begin to so well personify their Western name, that I actually forget that they have completely different actual names. The Chinese name means nothing to me as I don't speak Chinese, but I'm sure in Chinese it's full of meaning that to me lust looks like a bunch of intimidating letters.

In contrast, my few Japanese students usually kept their names. But their names were considerably easier to pronounce, and if they were changed it was usually just a slight alteration to a very similar sounding Western name and not an entirely invented name. But I've only had a couple of Japanese students.

[sirdanilot]

To be honest chinese names aren't that hard to pronounce. However none of the westerners will get the tones right so if your chinese name means something nasty if the tone is not pronounced right I can imagine changing your name be an option. I know several Chinese students who do use their Chinese name or at least a simplified version of it which still sounds chinese. No chinese-looking 'roberts' or 'jacks' here.

[Sumelic]

Yeah, I can see how the neutralization of tones could potentially be a problem. I know the pinyin>sound correspondences but I would never use tones when using a Chinese name in English, even if I knew the right tones and how to pronounce them. It's tough enough to try to figure out the best non-pretentious-sounding way of anglicizing the pronunciation of "ü". Of course, family names are generally not replaced, but they may get an unconventional romanization or a spelling-pronunciation, or both. I knew a guy with the surname Xie in high school and at least once I heard his last name pronounced /ziː/; I didn't know him well enough to remember how he pronounced it himself.

[finlay]

A few people have asked me before why I chose to adopt a Chinese surname for speaking to Chinese people.

If they'd ever seen the visible relief on the faces of Chinese-speakers I'd handed my card to after they'd first noticed my actual name and then had a moment to take in the fact that there was a parallel Chinese version, those queries would've proven completely unnecessary.

I have a lot of Chinese students and I am openly thankful they adopt Western names. When they don't I always get so flustered. Some are pretty easy in English but some are not and you don't want to overpronounce it and look like a pompous, potentially offensive ass, but you also don't want to completely butcher it either. They actually usually pick quite pretty Western names. I'm not sure where they are getting these names, most haven't been given to children for 100 years, but they are nice names.

I actually get to know them so well as say Daisy and they begin to so well personify their Western name, that I actually forget that they have completely different actual names. The Chinese name means nothing to me as I don't speak Chinese, but I'm sure in Chinese it's full of meaning that to me lust looks like a bunch of intimidating letters.

In contrast, my few Japanese students usually kept their names. But their names were considerably easier to pronounce, and if they were changed it was usually just a slight alteration to a very similar sounding Western name and not an entirely invented name. But I've only had a couple of Japanese students.

What's quite common with Japanese people speaking English is to ask for a shortened version of their first name, like Takahiro -> Taka or something. I've had a few that asked for a shortened version of that, like a Kazunori who said to call him Kaz, because it reminded him of being in America. Or I had a Masaaki who said to call him Max. I've had a few who almost arrogantly, or at least narrow-mindedly, claim that this is because their names are really difficult to pronounce for foreigners.

For the most part, the ones who ask for this are the ones who have experience either interacting with many foreigners or living abroad, though - the ones who are just learning English casually are made giddy and excited enough by referring to themselves by their first name.

[linguoboy]

Of course, family names are generally not replaced, but they may get an unconventional romanization or a spelling-pronunciation, or both. I knew a guy with the surname Xie in high school and at least once I heard his last name pronounced /ziː/; I didn't know him well enough to remember how he pronounced it himself.

Yeah, my friend Chou (mentioned elsewhere) really should've been [[tʂóʊ] but when by [ˈʧaʊ̯].

I once met someone with the Chinese surname 石 who went by "Stone", but that's the only example I can think of of someone using a semantic equivalent rather than a transcription.

[sirdanilot]

I even hear some Dutch people who anglicize their names sometimes. It makes me itchy and wanting to commit some act of violence to them. I just say my name in Dutch, I don't give a rat's ass whether monolingual Englishmen can pronounce it or not. If I hear something remotely in the right direction I'm fine.

[Viktor77]

What's quite common with Japanese people speaking English is to ask for a shortened version of their first name, like Takahiro -> Taka or something. I've had a few that asked for a shortened version of that, like a Kazunori who said to call him Kaz, because it reminded him of being in America. Or I had a Masaaki who said to call him Max. I've had a few who almost arrogantly, or at least narrow-mindedly, claim that this is because their names are really difficult to pronounce for foreigners.

For the most part, the ones who ask for this are the ones who have experience either interacting with many foreigners or living abroad, though - the ones who are just learning English casually are made giddy and excited enough by referring to themselves by their first name.

Yes, that is my experience as well. So that explains why they do that.

When I gave my name in Luxembourg I was mistaken for a German tourist, so at least within the Germanic countries my first name and surname are easy. In French and Spanish it is also easy. And that's the extent of my experience using it abroad.

[linguoboy]

I even hear some Dutch people who anglicize their names sometimes. It makes me itchy and wanting to commit some act of violence to them.

Time to try decaf? Or maybe Buddhism?

I just say my name in Dutch, I don't give a rat's ass whether monolingual Englishmen can pronounce it or not. If I hear something remotely in the right direction I'm fine.

I'm sympathetic to those who would rather be known by an alias than a butchered version of their actual name.

I'm pretty easygoing about foreign pronunciations of my given name. Then again, it's spelled and said pretty much the same in almost every language.

[sirdanilot]

Names in the Western World are not directly connected anymore to their etymological origins, and they are also not directly connected to their original intended meaning. If your name is Nathaniel you name originally means 'Given of God' (as it's a Hebrew name; source first hit on Google), but you aren't called Given-of-God you are Nathaniel. In fact many people names Nate or Nathan will probably have no idea what the original meaning of the name is and, even, only vaguely that Nate is connected to Nathaniel. The name has been abstracted to an, in essence, meaningless word which refers only to you (and others who happen to have the same name). Because it that it makes no sense to translate your name into another language.

Would I be in some kind of culture that would assign a name to me which is relevant and meaningful to that culture then yes that would be honorable of course. What if I went to indian tribe X who call me 'hunter of peccaries' or something, well then okay if that floats their boat, why not? But I wouldn't make up my own name which happens to fit a culture I am in. My name is the name I have and I am not going to use etymologically related versions of it corresponding to the country I am in, nor make up completely new names by myself.

[linguoboy]

Names in the Western World are not directly connected anymore to their etymological origins, and they are also not directly connected to their original intended meaning. If your name is Nathaniel you name originally means 'Given of God' (as it's a Hebrew name; source first hit on Google), but you aren't called Given-of-God you are Nathaniel.

And if your name is "Rose" you aren't called "Rose", you are "Rose". Have I got that right?

(Not all "names in the Western World" are Biblical, y'know.)

Because it that it makes no sense to translate your name into another language.

Translation isn't the only form of equivalence, and it's not the form I was referring to. If your name is "Nathaniel", for instance, you can insist on a pronunciation which is a close approximation of the pronunciation in your native language or you can accept the common pronunciation of the corresponding form of the name in that language (where it exists). That is, if you're an American in Germany, you can insist on, e.g. [̍neːsən] or you can choose to accept [naˈtʰaːn] etc. One choice is not intrinsically more sensible than the other.

But I wouldn't make up my own name which happens to fit a culture I am in. My name is the name I have and I am not going to use etymologically related versions of it corresponding to the country I am in, nor make up completely new names by myself.

That's your choice, and you're welcome to it. Personally, I dislike the sound of phonetic adaptions of my given name into languages like Chinese and Korean, so I was quite happy to adopt a new name which has nothing in common etymologically or semantically with my given name, only a vague sound resemblance, and go by this instead. After all, I've gone by at least a half-dozen different nicknames in my life, some of which were adaptations of part of my personal name (e.g. "Von") and others which had nothing at all to do with it (e.g. "Gary"). What's one more?

[Zaarin]

A few people have asked me before why I chose to adopt a Chinese surname for speaking to Chinese people.

If they'd ever seen the visible relief on the faces of Chinese-speakers I'd handed my card to after they'd first noticed my actual name and then had a moment to take in the fact that there was a parallel Chinese version, those queries would've proven completely unnecessary.

I have a lot of Chinese students and I am openly thankful they adopt Western names. When they don't I always get so flustered. Some are pretty easy in English but some are not and you don't want to overpronounce it and look like a pompous, potentially offensive ass, but you also don't want to completely butcher it either. They actually usually pick quite pretty Western names. I'm not sure where they are getting these names, most haven't been given to children for 100 years, but they are nice names.

I actually get to know them so well as say Daisy and they begin to so well personify their Western name, that I actually forget that they have completely different actual names. The Chinese name means nothing to me as I don't speak Chinese, but I'm sure in Chinese it's full of meaning that to me lust looks like a bunch of intimidating letters.

In contrast, my few Japanese students usually kept their names. But their names were considerably easier to pronounce, and if they were changed it was usually just a slight alteration to a very similar sounding Western name and not an entirely invented name. But I've only had a couple of Japanese students.

When I lived in Korea with my parents in the mid-90s, most of the Korean students at the school adopted Western names. From my class (I was in 2nd-3rd grade) and the class my mom taught (she taught first grade), I remember such examples as Sage, Julie, Stephanie, Jane, Justin, John, etc. In fact, the only counterexample I can think of was In Sun, but she goes by a Western name now (my mom has kept in touch with her).

[sirdanilot]

Names in the Western World are not directly connected anymore to their etymological origins, and they are also not directly connected to their original intended meaning. If your name is Nathaniel you name originally means 'Given of God' (as it's a Hebrew name; source first hit on Google), but you aren't called Given-of-God you are Nathaniel.

And if your name is "Rose" you aren't called "Rose", you are "Rose". Have I got that right?

(Not all "names in the Western World" are Biblical, y'know.)

Such names are in the minority. And if you are called Rose, are you going to call yourself Ruusu if you are in Finland?

Translation isn't the only form of equivalence, and it's not the form I was referring to. If your name is "Nathaniel", for instance, you can insist on a pronunciation which is a close approximation of the pronunciation in your native language or you can accept the common pronunciation of the corresponding form of the name in that language (where it exists). That is, if you're an American in Germany, you can insist on, e.g. [̍neːsən] or you can choose to accept [naˈtʰaːn] etc. One choice is not intrinsically more sensible than the other.

No, your name is the name given to you, in this case the English pronunciation. Now does this mean that you should keep buggin those poor Germans to pronounce that /θ/ when they can't produce it? Of course not. But there's no reason to adapt your own pronunciation to those Germans.

That's your choice, and you're welcome to it. Personally, I dislike the sound of phonetic adaptions of my given name into languages like Chinese and Korean, so I was quite happy to adopt a new name which has nothing in common etymologically or semantically with my given name, only a vague sound resemblance, and go by this instead. After all, I've gone by at least a half-dozen different nicknames in my life, some of which were adaptations of part of my personal name (e.g. "Von") and others which had nothing at all to do with it (e.g. "Gary"). What's one more?

The point is that a name is given to you. Making up your own name is incredibly pretentious. Your name can be given to you by your parents, or by people around you. I also have nicknames, but I did not make them up myself, they were given to me by people around me as a sign of endearment and acceptance (they are phonological adaptations from my name in this case). Yet even though I have gained these nicknames when introducing myself I of course use my normal name.

I actually do know some people who decided to be cocky and say 'from now on please call me so-and-so (with the new name being super pretentious, consisting of two normal names). I refuse to do that, because it's utterly ridiculous. Who do you think you are to a) decide your own name b) expect of others to go through the effort to remember this new name rather than the old name and c) choose a new name which is harder to pronounce to boot?

The only place where it's not cocky to make up your name is on the internet, basically.

[KathTheDragon]

Making up your own name is incredibly pretentious

Are transgender people not allowed to choose their new name under your schema?

Edit: As I have just been reminded, there are plenty of other circumstances where changing your name is a very sensible move. Take, for example, the sadly common case of someone trying to escape an abusive ex/partner. Would you seriously say, "No, you cannot change your name, you pretentious person! I don't care if it's for your personal safety."

[linguoboy]

Such names are in the minority. And if you are called Rose, are you going to call yourself Ruusu if you are in Finland?

You might. The point is there isn't a wrong way to do this, and all your arguing by assertion won't make that otherwise.

No, your name is the name given to you, in this case the English pronunciation. Now does this mean that you should keep buggin those poor Germans to pronounce that /θ/ when they can't produce it? Of course not. But there's no reason to adapt your own pronunciation to those Germans.

There's a very good reason; namely, the fact that I'm speaking German. Code-switching doesn't come naturally to me. I find it awkward to change phonologies for a single word in a longer utterance, and I know I'm not the only one in this boat.

Besides, it's not like there's a uniform pronunciation of my name in English. Even my parents don't say it the same way--neither my given name nor our surname. So, again, what's one more variation? I know they're not altering it in order to be disrespectful, so what's the fuss?

The point is that a name is given to you. Making up your own name is incredibly pretentious. Your name can be given to you by your parents, or by people around you. I also have nicknames, but I did not make them up myself, they were given to me by people around me as a sign of endearment and acceptance (they are phonological adaptations from my name in this case). Yet even though I have gained these nicknames when introducing myself I of course use my normal name.

Most Westerners with Chinese names were given them by their teachers, at least in my experience. I was unusual in picking my own, but I started studying the language without an instructor.

I actually do know some people who decided to be cocky and say 'from now on please call me so-and-so (with the new name being super pretentious, consisting of two normal names). I refuse to do that, because it's utterly ridiculous. Who do you think you are to a) decide your own name b) expect of others to go through the effort to remember this new name rather than the old name and c) choose a new name which is harder to pronounce to boot?

But if you've never met this person before, it's all the same to you. If I meet someone and they say, "Call me so-and-so", I call them so-and-so. I don't track down their parents or their childhood friends to confirm that's actually the name they were given at birth. What do I care? The purpose of a name is to have a convenient designation for a person. What difference does it make where that designation originates?

[Dewrad]

Names in the Western World are not directly connected anymore to their etymological origins, and they are also not directly connected to their original intended meaning. If your name is Nathaniel you name originally means 'Given of God' (as it's a Hebrew name; source first hit on Google), but you aren't called Given-of-God you are Nathaniel.

And if your name is "Rose" you aren't called "Rose", you are "Rose". Have I got that right?

(Not all "names in the Western World" are Biblical, y'know.)

Such names are in the minority. And if you are called Rose, are you going to call yourself Ruusu if you are in Finland?

Just going by the list on this page, I count 35/100 names of Biblical origin. The equivalent list of girls' names fares even worse in the Biblical names stakes, with only 15/100. They're not as popular as you'd think these days.

From my own experience of this, few people outside Wales can pronounce my name correctly, so I've always gone by "Dan" to non-Welsh speakers, which is the English-language equivalent of the name on my birth certificate. I'll introduce myself as Deiniol, but always follow it up by saying "call me Dan".

[Xephyr]

Names in the Western World are not directly connected anymore to their etymological origins, and they are also not directly connected to their original intended meaning. If your name is Nathaniel you name originally means 'Given of God' (as it's a Hebrew name; source first hit on Google), but you aren't called Given-of-God you are Nathaniel.

And if your name is "Rose" you aren't called "Rose", you are "Rose". Have I got that right?

(Not all "names in the Western World" are Biblical, y'know.)

Such names are in the minority. And if you are called Rose, are you going to call yourself Ruusu if you are in Finland?

Just going by the list on this page, I count 35/100 names of Biblical origin. The equivalent list of girls' names fares even worse in the Biblical names stakes, with only 15/100. They're not as popular as you'd think these days.

He never said all names in the Western world are Biblical. He said that they weren't connected to their etymological origins. And if you look at that list of names, you'll find that he is absolutely right. How many of those male names have transparent etymologies to non-linguophiles? Sure you get "Oliver" at number 2, but the next name on the list that has a transparent English etymology is "Hunter" at 91. The girls' names list has more, but still not many: I count 19 out of 100. Names like "Rose" are in the minority.

[Salmoneus]

Huh? How many people know that an oliver is a small tilt hammer worked by foot? I didn't until you made me look it up! [Also, that's a false etymology. It's apparently actually from Norse meaning 'ancestral relic' or 'all true'.


Anyway, one thing that might be interesting to bear in mind that that the sirdanilot view of names is a very modern invention. Previously, the given name was considered a semantic unit, not a phonological one - even when the etymology was not widely known. As a result, people would be known by different phonological names in different places, or different circumstances (eg they'd go by the neolatin form in scholarly contexts), or when talking different languages. Or, indeed, in to different people, depending on THEIR native language.
This lasted into the 19th century at least, and means that, by modern standards, many historical figures seem not to have known their 'real name' - they even had different signatures depending on context, or whimsy. Mozart, for instance, is known to have given his middle name as Amadeus, as Amade, as Amadé, as Amadè, as Amadeo, as Theophilus, as Theophile, and as Gottlieb. He seems to have been generally known as Gottlieb - his biographers called him that, and the memorial concert after his death called him that. However, he's Theophilus on his birth certificate. Then again, he's 'Amade' on his marriage certificate, and 'Amadeus' on his death certificate. He's not known to have used 'Amadeus' himself, though his wife is known to have called him that when writing about him; he himself seems to have mostly favoured 'Amadè'. Of course, his "real name" was Joannes Chrysostomus, but nobody ever called him that. Alternatively, he could also have been called Johann Chrysostom, etc etc.

Similarly, we think of Beethoven as having been called 'Ludwig'. But he signed his own works 'Luigi', or sometimes 'Louis'. Or, of course, sometimes 'Ludwig'. It wasn't that he was using different names exactly [and note that while Mozart at least visited France to pick up 'Amadè', and called himself 'Amadeo' mostly only when in Italy, Beethoven mostly stayed put, so his name usage had less obvious motivations], but just that his name had multiple realisations. So if he were writing a letter to an Italian, naturally he would sign it 'Luigi', and so forth.

The idea that the name is purely a certain concatenation of sounds is a recent invention... and i suspect probably an English one (as English names probably became 'detached' in sound and frequency from their continental equivalents earlier on?)

[Xephyr]

Huh? How many people know that an oliver is a small tilt hammer worked by foot? I didn't until you made me look it up! [Also, that's a false etymology. It's apparently actually from Norse meaning 'ancestral relic' or 'all true'.

Man, I feel like a doofus, I just assumed it meant "someone who cultivates olives".

[----]

Wikipedia claims that until fairly recently, people in Burma changed their own names at will whenever something interesting happened in their life. Names in general are quite closely associated to personal identity so to say someone can't choose their own name is a little weird. Even weirder considering we are on a forum where usernames are displayed and none of us are going by our real names.

[linguoboy]

Wikipedia claims that until fairly recently, people in Burma changed their own names at will whenever something interesting happened in their life.

This also used to be customary among East Asian literati and artists. For instance, the printmaker commonly known in the West as "Hokusai" was born Tokitarō. His master dubbed him Shunrō, but after he was expelled from that school of printing by his master's successor, he joined another and changed his name to Tawaraya Sōri. Several years later, he passed this name on to a disciple and started calling himself Hokusai Tomisa. But during the peak of his career is was called Iitsu. He died under yet another name. The idea that you have one name given at birth that you have to keep for your entire life probably owes as much to the exigences of modern bureaucracy as anything.

[GreenBowTie]

i fully support changing your name as much as you goddamn want to

[Ziz]

I've usually preferred using a different, though sometimes related name in different language contexts.

When I was in Taiwan for a summer, I had people call me 按周 Ānzhōu, as it sounds sort of like my real name Andrew. I found that "Andrew" has rather too many consonants in the middle for Chinese-speakers to readily pronounce.

In Hebrew, I go by the name נחום Nakhum, which is the Jewish religious name my parents gave me.

In other European languages, I like to go by the equivalent of my name. My Brazilian boyfriend called me André whenever we would speak Portuguese, and in Spanish I usually go by Andrés. I don't like introducing myself as Andrew in these languages because the sound doesn't fit, and it's distracting to switch to a different phonology mid-sentence, but it's also ridiculous to me to mispronounce my own name as it might be said in another language. I guess I'm kinda lucky to have a name that has an easy equivalent in all other Western languages.

What's funny to me is that Chinese people I've met have tended to pick sort of outdated names whenever they adopt a Western name. My Linguistics TA in college called herself 'Tina' and another went by 'Connie,' which both seem pretty 80s to me. I travelled in Taiwan with two Malaysian Chinese who went by 'Alistair' and 'Vivian.'