zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:40 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:53 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 455
Is there a term for a sound change of the following pattern --

/-VASV-/ --> /-VASAV-/; and some nonse examples, /alga, dijda, albəm/ -> /algla, dijdja, albləm/

A = approximant; S = Stop; V = Vowel

_________________
linguoboy wrote:
So that's what it looks like when the master satirist is moistened by his own moutarde.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:09 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 am
Posts: 1998
Location: suburbs of Mrin
Inserting a sound is called epenthesis.

_________________
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:44 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA
I don't get the pattern, though. :P I don't see what the (phonetic) motivation is for epenthesizing either [l] or [j], and anyway, "approximant" is a pretty vague term since it can mean stuff like lateral approximants or just glides like [j].


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:03 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 437
Location: Davis, CA
Vijay wrote:
I don't get the pattern, though. :P I don't see what the (phonetic) motivation is for epenthesizing either [l] or [j], and anyway, "approximant" is a pretty vague term since it can mean stuff like lateral approximants or just glides like [j].


Were it just VASV > VSAV it'd be metathesis, which is a fairly common change, but as it stands I can neither think of an appropriate name for it nor think of a natural example of it. It's very distinctive, at any rate.

I don't have any real problem with the approximant category in this case. If the sound change applies to all approximants, whether glide or liquid, then this is an appropriate way to describe it.

_________________
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:44 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Chengjiang wrote:
Were it just VASV > VSAV it'd be metathesis, which is a fairly common change

It's common but AFAIK usually not a regular sound change that applies across the board.

Ohh, wait a minute. So you repeat the approximant. OK. That's what I didn't realize until just now. I feel like there must be a better way of expressing this with this notation, like αA or something (so something like /-VASV-/ -> /-VASαAV-/?).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:00 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 1611
Vijay wrote:
I don't get the pattern, though. :P I don't see what the (phonetic) motivation is for epenthesizing either [l] or [j], and anyway, "approximant" is a pretty vague term since it can mean stuff like lateral approximants or just glides like [j].

The point is the sequence C₁C₂ turns into C₁C₂C₁ intervocalically.

I don't know, I would either call it a specific type of an epenthesis (where a consonant cluster gets separated from a vowel by introducing one more consonant), or—if I were to invent a new term—I would call it something like “perithesis” (Greek for “putting sth around sth”).

_________________
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.

If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:29 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 455
Pole, the wrote:
The point is the sequence C₁C₂ turns into C₁C₂C₁ intervocalically.


Yeah, sorry, my notation is not great. Pole and Vijay hit on the pattern. An approximant -- here, /j, w, l, etc./ is repeated following a stop.

Epenthesis seemed awkward to me given that it usually breaks CC or VV cluster.

"Perithesis" ... ha! That's good. Thanks folks.

_________________
linguoboy wrote:
So that's what it looks like when the master satirist is moistened by his own moutarde.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:16 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 437
Location: Davis, CA
Vijay wrote:
Chengjiang wrote:
Were it just VASV > VSAV it'd be metathesis, which is a fairly common change

It's common but AFAIK usually not a regular sound change that applies across the board.


It is a very common sporadic sound change, but there are some cases of it being systematic. For example, Common Slavic had systematic metathesis of coda liquid consonants with the preceding vowel.

_________________
[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:40 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2261
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Chengjiang wrote:
Vijay wrote:
Chengjiang wrote:
Were it just VASV > VSAV it'd be metathesis, which is a fairly common change

It's common but AFAIK usually not a regular sound change that applies across the board.


It is a very common sporadic sound change, but there are some cases of it being systematic. For example, Common Slavic had systematic metathesis of coda liquid consonants with the preceding vowel.

It's supposed to have happened systematically in Romani as well, but I'm skeptical in that particular case at least.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:47 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:13 pm
Posts: 512
Location: Halfway to Hyperborea
Avestan has regressive "perithesis" of /j/, but this probably works thru palatalization: Cj > Cʲj > jCj. The same mechanism might be difficult to extend to liquids.

_________________
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group