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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:34 pm 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:41 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:57 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:15 am 
Smeric
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Nein, Englisch ist nur Deutsch von einem Normanne mit vorgestülpte Lippen ausgesprochen.

No, English is just German pronounced by a Norman with pursed lips.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:41 am 
Smeric
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Müsst Ihr Eure Albernheiten über die deutsche Sprache ausgerechnet hier veranstalten?

Do you have to enact your sillinesses about the German language here in all places?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:01 pm 
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Which language(s) the Beaker Folk probably spoke of course also depends on where they came from, a question on which there is no consensus yet. Some scholars assume that they came from the Iberian peninsula, others that they came from Central Europe. Perhaps a combination of both - a Central European origin and a back-migration, perhaps after acquiring metallurgy, from the Iberian peninsula. If the Beaker Folk originated in Central Europe, a relationship between their languages and IE seems plausible (but in no way certain), if they originated in the Iberian peninsula, less so.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:53 pm 
Sanno
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:11 am 
Smeric
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Nice and interesting post, Salmoneus, and quite close to what I think of the matters. The OEH, as I said earlier, looks as if it was from a sister language of PIE that branched off before the rise of ablaut, and its geographical distribution is very similar to that of the Beaker culture.

I used to entertain the notion that "Macro-IE" originated in what is now the Bay of Odessa, and was spread out across Central Europe, the Lower Danube and the Pontic steppe when the Black Sea Flood hit home, but it is not certain that this flood actually happened.

Etruscan is definitely farther removed from Narrow IE than Anatolian; while Anatolian is clearly related to Narrow IE, this is far from certain for Etruscan. There are hardly any lexical cognate candidates, and only a few bits of morphology that seem to match their IE counterparts - and their interpretation is still controversial (I have seen at least three different case systems reconstructed for Etruscan!). Indeed, Etruscan seems to be even farther from IE than Uralic.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:48 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:34 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:26 am 
Smeric
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Do you have this link?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:33 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:13 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:22 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:47 pm 
Lebom
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Speaking of Etruscan, I've always found the distribution of Etruscan, Rhaetic and Lemnian to be pretty odd. A migration from the east does seem most plausible given Lemnian and the evidence of diffusion between Anatolian and Etruscan, but it seems strange that they would end up in Northern Italy and the Alps without leaving much evidence in between.

Not directly related to the topic of the thread, but An Indo-European Linguistic Area: Ancient Anatolia by Calvert Watkins has some evidence of diffusion between Anatolian and Greek, including a word for "wine" derived from PIE *medhu which means "sweet" or "honey" in other IE languages. Interestingly, Etruscan borrowed this word from Luvian; "wine" is matu in both languages.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:38 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:21 pm 
Sanno
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Is there any reason to think the Trojans were Etruscan? Even if you think Etruscan came from that region, there seems no reason to specify Troy.
For one thing, since the Greeks were happy fingering the Lemnians and Imbrians as weirdos, you'd have thought they might have mentioned if they were Trojan. Instead, they gave them an entirely different origin.

But I think west-east makes more sense. There are apparently some people who have suggested that the Etruscans came from across the Adriatic, but only from as far away as Dalmatia. Dalmatia would indeed be a very believable place for a pre-IE language family to find refuge. A move from Dalmatia to Italy to the Alps seems rather less peculiar than one from Anatolia to Italy to the Alps - indeed, if Dalmatia is the origin, you could even allow two different migrations, one to form Etruscan and one to form Rhaetic, if indeed those languages are more divergent. The Tyrrhenian presence in the Aegean would then be a secondary, maritime expansion - not implausible, since the northern Adriatic has a history of maritime proficiency (think the Liburnians, Paganians, Venetians...), particularly appealing if Lemnian is indeed closer to Etruscan than Raetic is. And it seems to make more sense to suggest that a race of semi-civilised Adriatic pirates might migrate into the prosperous Aegean/Anatolian sphere, than that a race of sophisticated Anatolians would take to their boats, sail west into the darkness, land in barbarous Italy, set up a new civilisation, and then migrate again up into the Alps. That narrative just isn't as understandable to me!

The east-to-west hypothesis also has the problem of crowding. Imagine the poor Etruscans sitting in Troy and surrounding areas. The Anatalians sweep through their lands from the Balkans; perhaps the Armenians come through as a second wave. Greeks flood in later on. The Phrygians march through. Thracian bands roam. Minoans occupy the sea, at least for a while. Putting them in Troy is basically putting a chicken in the middle lane of a motorway...

Whereas the other scenario has: they hang around in Dalmatia, while the Italics populate Italy; they spread across the Adriatic and populate northern Italy, pushing up into the Alps; at some point, with chaos having fallen on the east, some of their merchants go east and settle on some unhinhabited islands there; the Celts come south (and Illyrians come west) and take away much of their lands, isolating them in Tuscany.

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:19 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:35 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:58 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:10 am 
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