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zompist bboard • View topic - Haida and Na-Dene

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 Post subject: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:23 am 
Smeric
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I am aware that the Haida language has been more or less universally accepted to not belong to Na-Dene. What I'm wondering is, what about the Haida people? Since the original proposal of Na-Dene, it has been found that they represent a population distinct from Native Americans proper (who arrived earlier) and from the Eskimo-Aleut (who arrived later). But what about the Haida? Are they Native American proper or Na-Dene? Or perhaps a distinct population group? A quick Google search didn't reveal anything scientifically grounded.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:20 am 
Sanci
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If I remember correctly, I think I read somewhere once that they originally came from Northeast Asia and shared ancestry with the Ainu, but that's probably just me mixing them up with some other ethnic group since I remember clearly that throat singing was somehow relevant but I can't find anything about the Haida having ever had any kind of tradition of throat singing... although I did find something about how no outsider has ever heard traditional Haida music, but well. So yeah, I'm probably mixing up the Haida and Inuits, since I don't really have much interest in any languages/culture/history of the Americas.

One thing, though, that I absolutely have to cling to is how "language" in Haida is "kil". I mean, that's some straight-up Ural-Altaic shit right there; Mongolian "хэл", Finnish "kieli", Estonian "keel", Chuvash "чĕлхе", Kazakh "til", Turkish "dil", etc. I know it's probably a coincidence, but I think it's still interesting. If the Haida came from Northeast Asia, it could well be a loanword from the Mongols if they didn't originally have a word for language, but no one would ever even consider that a serious possibility. I don't know if I do either.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:22 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:54 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:02 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:35 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:27 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:30 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:32 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:10 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:14 pm 
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:36 pm 
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Last edited by Xephyr on Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:16 pm 
Boardlord
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Honestly I don't know much about reindeer herding, but for discussing language group expansion, the question is whether it allows empires, as horse nomadism does.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:27 pm 
Avisaru
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Right, it's about as easy to go to war with reindeer as it's with fish nets or bear traps. Reindeer herding can give you a competitive edge over neighbours who don't have it but it's also a technology that's not too hard to adopt. As a result, it's quite likely that it'll soon diffuse to your linguistically unrelated neighbours and give them similar advantages for expansion than what you have.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:50 pm 
Lebom
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My understanding is that reindeer domestication happened relatively late, so maybe there just hasn't been enough time for reindeer-herding pastoralists to spread their languages.


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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:34 pm 
Smeric
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:00 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: Haida and Na-Dene
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:13 pm 
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