zompist bboard

I have a problem in that I often have my head filled with ideas for conlangs which don't really come to fruition or get fully developed. Right now I'm obsessing about making an Algonquian-language (based on a previous effort), probably placed in Montana, and I have some sound changes to derive it (please note that plain vowels when written refer to both the short and long variants unless otherwise specified):

1. Final vowels are dropped in words of more than two syllables, with the resulting final glides being lost as well.

2. Consonants disappear initially before a glide.

3. Post-consonantal *we and *wa collapse into o, *ye and *yi collapse into i and *ya becomes e. Initially *we becomes o and *ye and *yi become i, while *ya raises to ye. All glides are then lost after consonants

4. EDIT: Short initial *e becomes i initially. Then a vowel shift takes place: *o becomes i, *a becomes o and *e becomes a.

5. Vowels are lengthened before *h, shortened before *ʔ and both consonants are lost completely.

6. *s, *x and *ç collapse into h. EDIT: removed the second part of this rule and edited the results of the sound changes too.

7. Another chain shift: *k is lost. *t then backs to k and *θ and *r become t to fill the gap, however in the intervening time between k being lost and *θ merging with *r, *θ became h before another consonant..

8. *č becomes š, merging with *š, which then becomes s.

9. Either between two vowels or between a vowel and the beginning of a words, short *i becomes y and short *o becomes w.

10. A long vowel before another vowel becomes a short vowel-glide sequence, with i· becoming iy, a· becoming ah.

11. Any remaining short vowels appearing before another vowel are deleted.

12. w merges with y. y then strengthens to š.

13. Long vowels are shortened at the end of a word.

The resulting vocabulary looks like this:

EDIT: itani "man" from *erenyiwa
EDIT: iti "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
otam "dog" from *aθemwa
ošata "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
EDIT: anti "hawk" from "kenriwa "eagle"
moti "bear" from *maθkwa
miihi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
siipo "ghost" from *či·paya
šoopih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
noma "fish" from *name·wa
EIDT: iši "louse" from *ehkwa
napi "water" from *nepyi
EDIT: isika "fire" from *eškwete·wi
oti "arrow" from *aθwi
šišišom "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi

I would like to add some form of tonal contrast but don't know how to do this: any ideas?.

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First known on here as Karero

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First known on here as Karero

Yeah, I'd be more than happy to bundle together some of the most important papers and send them to you. But there's not really a summary of Proto-Algonquian...there's , but that was the paper that started the field of comparative Algonquian, and while little of it is flat-out wrong, most of Bloomfield's statements are really only half the story. (It's required reading, though- none of the literature will make sense unless you've read, and hopefully memorized, Bloomfield '46). Pentland's 1979 dissertation 'Algonquian Historical Phonology' is about as complete a sketch of PA phonology as you're going to find, and can be used with only a few minor (and controversial) revisions. You'll also want to read a few papers on the similarities (and differences) in the development of the various Algonquian languages; otherwise, you're doomed to end up with an Algonquian version of "my Romlang is set in Switzerland but maintains the Latin passive and all the cases." (For example, if your Algonquian language is spoken in Kentucky, it would be very surprising to have separate reflexes for *r and *θ. Goddard's The West-to-East Cline in Algonquian Dialectology is a good survey of the phonological side of things- for grammar, we're still waiting.)

PA grammar is scattered around the literature. I'd start with Bloomfield's Sketch, then read Goddard's Reconstructing the Independent Indicative. Further forays into the field will require quite a bit of reading, some of which I haven't done, like Goddard's PhD dissertation on Delaware verbs.

I've got all of these and a lot more on PDF- PM me your email address and I'll get you set up.

OK, animate nouns inflect for singular, plural and obviate. The obviate plural was rendered homophonous with the proximate plural (due in part to the loss of *k and *h), so it was lost as a separate category.

The formation of the plural is heavily dependent on the shape of the root. If the root ends in a vowel, then -šo is suffixed, frequently with lengthening of the final vowel as well. If the root ends in a consonant, then either -i or -o is suffixed depending on whether the PA final -a was preceded by w or not. Also, originally bi-syllabic nouns (such as miihi "bison" from *mo·swa, "moose"), due to the lack of final syllable loss, have no separate plural form.

The obviate is formed much more simply: it (generally) takes the form of a -t suffix attached to the plural.

Examples:

"dog"
SNG otam
PLU otami
OBV otamit

"duck"
SNG sisiip
PLU sisiipo
OBV sisiipot

"man"
SNG itani
PLU itanišo
OBV itanišot

"woman"
SNG iti
PLU itiišo
OBV itiišot

"bear"
SNG moti
PLU moti
OBV motit

"louse"
SNG iši
PLU iši
OBV išit

Inanimate nouns, on the other hand, inflect only for singular-plural. Again there is a three-way allomorphy between the forms of the plural suffix: after vowels the form is generally -šot, often with lengthening of the preceding vowel. After consonants the suffix is of the form -ot/-at. After originally bi-syllabic roots the suffix is generally of the form -t. There are as always a good few exceptions.

"house"
SNG šišišom
PLU šišišomot

"stone"
SNG ohan
PLU ohanat

"day"
SNG iisi
PLU iisiišot

"stick"
SNG maka
PLU makit

"arrow"
SNG oti
PLU otit

"berry"
SNG miini
PLU miinot

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First known on here as Karero

Right, I've decided to keep PA *θ and *r separate, with *r t. No other change occurs: the results will stay mostly the same apart from including θ. Thus "woman" is now iθi, "dog" is now oθam, "bear" is now moθi and "arrow" is now oθi, still homophonous with oθi "snake".

Also, how the hell do you do basic tables with columns? because I want to post my possessive paradigms and can't do it properly in a nice table.

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First known on here as Karero

Changes to changes again. Now preconsonantal *s, *x, *ç and *θ all become ʔ at the same time: before the loss of *k, but after the loss of *h and *ʔ. *s afterwards still becomes h. Also ʔ is epenthesised to the front of vowel-initial words. Now the examples words are of the form:

EDIT: 'itani "man" from *erenyiwa
EDIT: 'i'i "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
'oθam "dog" from *aθemwa
'ošata "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
EDIT: 'anti "hawk" from *kenriwa "eagle"
mo'i "bear" from *maθkwa
miihi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
siipo "ghost" from *či·paya
šoopih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
noma "fish" from *name·wa
EIDT: 'iši "louse" from *ehkwa
napi "water" from *nepyi
EDIT: 'isika "fire" from *eškwete·wi
'oθi "arrow" from *aθwi
šišišom "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi
'ohan "stone" from *aʔsenya
'iisi "day" from *ki·šekwa·wi
manoon "settlement, village" from *menika·ni

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First known on here as Karero

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First known on here as Karero

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First known on here as Karero

Right, more changes to sound changes. Firstly, the stuff with the vowels and glides merging is moving to the start (where it should be, really). Secondly, before word-final glide and vowel loss, an accent is placed in the word. It is placed first of all on the first long vowel. If there are no long vowels and the first syllable is light, the accent goes on the second syllable, otherwise on the first. Finally, before the effects of *ʔ and *h occur, a long vowel is shortened in a syllable which precedes another long vowel.

So the example nouns now look like this:

'itáni "man" from *erenyiwa
'i'í "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
'oθám "dog" from *aθemwa
'ošáta "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
'ánti "hawk" from *kenriwa "eagle"
mó'i "bear" from *maθkwa
mííhi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
θíípo "ghost" from *či·paya
šóópih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
nomá "fish" from *name·wa
'íši "louse" from *ehkwa
napí "water" from *nepyi
'isiká "fire" from *eškwete·wi
'oθí "arrow" from *aθwi
šíšišom "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi
'óhan "stone" from *aʔsenya
'íísi "day" from *ki·šekwa·wi
manóón "settlement, village" from *menika·ni
hípi "river, stream" from *si·pi·wi
'ínoopi "snow" from *ko·na·powi

This accent is contrastive:

'o'í "snake" from *aθko·ka
'ó'i "land, country" from *askyi

One or two minor adjustments may follow, but that is the basic gist of it.

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First known on here as Karero

...Or alternatively, an accent is placed on all syllables containing a long vowel or a coda consonant, and then a accent is lost if it is followed later in the word by another accent. This enables accent-less words. EDIT: and the accent is now only lost if the syllable directly following it also has one. Now the examples are thus:

'itani "man" from *erenyiwa
'i'í "woman" from *eθkwe·wa
'oθam "dog" from *aθemwa
'ošatá "eagle" from *awe·ʔre·wa
'ánti "hawk" from *kenriwa "eagle"
mó'i "bear" from *maθkwa
mííhi "bison" from *mo·swa "moose"
θíípo "ghost" from *či·paya
šóópih "hare, rabbit" from *wa·poswa
nomá "fish" from *name·wa
'íši "louse" from *ehkwa
napi "water" from *nepyi
'ísiká "fire" from *eškwete·wi
'oθi "arrow" from *aθwi
šíšišóm "house" from *wi·kiwa·ʔmi
'óhan "stone" from *aʔsenya
'íísí "day" from *ki·šekwa·wi
manóón "settlement, village" from *menika·ni
hipí "river, stream" from *si·pi·wi
'inóópi "snow" from *ko·na·powi

This accent is (still) contrastive:

'o'í "snake" from *aθko·ka
'ó'i "land, country" from *askyi

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First known on here as Karero

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!

_________________


First known on here as Karero

Running the vocab through these sound changes, I got:
'itani
'íθí
'oθám
'ošátá
'ánti
móθi
mííhi
θíípo
šoopíh
nomá
'íši
napi
'ísiká
'oθši
šíšišóm
'ohán
'íísí
manóón
hiipí
'iinóópi
'oθí
'ósi
It looks pretty different from you most recent list. Maybe I did something wrong in SCA. Here's the sound changes I plugged in:
L=ieoa
H=íéóá
V=ieoaíéóá
N=iaioíáíó
C=ptk'mnrsšhθ

e/i/#_/_·
·//_#
V//_#
[wy]//_#
C//#_[wy]
L/H/_·
L/H/_C[C#]
H/L/_(·)(C)(C)H
w[ea]/o/C_
w[éá]/ó/C_
y[ie]/i/[C#]_
y[íé]/í/[C#]_
ya/e/C_
yá/é/C_
we/o/#_
wé/ó/#_
a/e/#y_
á/é/#y_
V/N/_
h/·/V_
·ʔ//_
[ʔh]//_
s/h/_/_C
k//_
t/k/_
r/t/_
/'/#_V
[θšrs]/'/_C
š/s/_
č/θ/_
[ií]/y/V_V
[oó]/w/V_V
i·/iy/_V
í·/íy/_V
a·/ah/_V
á·/áh/_V
o·/ow/_V
ó·/ów/_V
V//_V
[wy]/š/_
·//_#
V·/V²/_

Also, I think šíšišom should undergo some haplology.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!

I propose the following orthography for this language. It is based on the idea that the Ohio government would start a program to write Amerind languages of that state without pre-existing writing systems in English-based Latin alphabets (before Webster invented American English spelling). Other Amerind languages to the east and west are given similar orthographies in what is called the Detroit System:
/p t k ʔ/ <p t k hh> (glottal stop is not written initially)
/m n/ <m n>
/θ s ʃ h/ <th s sh h~wh> (<wh> after <t> or <s>)
/iː i oː o aː a/ <ee e oo o aa a>
/iː˦ i˦ oː˦ o˦ aː˦ a˦/ <eei ei ooi oi aai ai>

The words I wrote become:
etane
eithei
othaim
oshaitai
ainte
moithe
meeihe
theeipo
shoopeih
nomai
eishe
nape
eisekai
othshe
sheisheshoim
ohain
eeisei
manooin
heepei
eenooipe
othei
oise

I put the phonology in the romanisation thread. If someone makes an English-orthography that I like better, that would become my new proposal.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!

_________________


First known on here as Karero

_________________


First known on here as Karero

I was going to write this before your edit. Perhaps some of it still applies?
Your sound changes for the SCA doesn't follow what you wrote earlier.

First, what is T?
Second, <x> is actually /s/ before consonants, and <ç> is /r/ before consonants.
Third, ·/y/[ia]_V, according to your list, is wrong because <a·> becomes /ah/.
Finally, C//_² is listed no where on your list.

EDIT:I know what T is. It is a pretty useless category though.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!

_________________


First known on here as Karero

Even when we plug in the same sound changes, somehow we got different results. (See the romanisation thread.)
Are there any Siouan influences on this language?

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!

_________________


First known on here as Karero

The Wikipedia page is pretty detailed. For the purpose of grammatical influence, its probably all you need.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!

_________________


First known on here as Karero

I like the look of this so far. It's quite believable as a Plains Algonquian language without being an obvious copy of either Arapahoan or Cheyenne. I'm interested in seeing more. (One minor correction: the terms are proximate and obviative, not obviate)

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First known on here as Karero