Help your fluency in a nifty way

[Salmoneus]

mitgekriegt

Beautiful word!

Reading this is making me frustrated about not knowing German, again (because I passively know enough that I can almost read most of this conversation, which is more annoying that it all being unfathomable).

Which is odd, because I've been playing around making a germanic conlang recently, and my constant feeling has been that of all the Germanic languages the most horrible and unlikeable is German - I've constantly been steering away from it, whether toward Dutch or English or Icelandic. And yet, seeing it actually used, it suddenly seems appealing again...

[Viktor77]

Isn't the distinction between Swedish kanna und veta like that between kennen und wissen in German? That is, you känner a person but you vet a fact?

A mon avis, on ne devrait pas parler d'une telle distinction quand on apprend "kanna" et "veta" ou "kennen" et "wissen" ou "connaître" et "savoir". Etant donné que ceux-ci peut changer parmi les langues que j'ai illustrées ici, du moins pour le français, "connaître" ne s'emploie uniquement pas pour exprimer la connaissance d'une personne mais une bonne connaissance de quelque chose en soi, comme "to be familiar with" en anglais. C-à-d., je peux dire "je ne connais pas." En fait, quand j'enseigne cette différence je me penche plus sur l'usage de "savoir" que sur l'usage de "connaître" et j'explique aux étudiants qu'il se peut que "connaître" s'emploie plus fréquemment que "savoir" en français (bien que je n'aie aucune preuve empirique) "Savoir" indique simplement un fait, du type que Donald Trump ne peut piger.

Mais en gros, j'utiliserais "savoir" dans le cas de The Pole, pas d'office mais "je ne sais pas" me semble mieux pour une courte expression de ne pas savoir telle ou telle chose.

In my opinion, we shouldn't talk about such a distinction when learning "kanna" and "veta" or "kennen" and "wissen" or "connaître" and "savoir'." Given that these could change between the languages illustrated here, at least in French "connaître" is not only used to signify the knowledge of a personne but also a good knowledge of something in itself, as in "to be familiar with" in English. This means that I can say "je ne connais pas." In fact, when I teach this distinction I focus more on the usage of "savoir" than on the usage of "connaître" and I explain to the students that it's possible that "connaître" is employed more frequently than "savoir" (although I have no empiracal evidence). "Savoir" simply indicates a fact, of the sort Donald Trump can't grasp.

But all things considered, I'd use "savoir" in the case of The Pole, not because it's required but "je ne sais pas" seems better to me for a short expression of not knowing something.

[Pole, the]

In my opinion, we shouldn't talk about such a distinction when learning "kanna" and "veta" or "kennen" and "wissen" or "connaître" and "savoir'." Given that these could change between the languages illustrated here, at least in French "connaître" is not only used to signify the knowledge of a personne but also a good knowledge of something in itself, as in "to be familiar with" in English.

Som är „kennen“ i tysk.
As is „kennen“ in German.

Dat verkar vara en grundläggande skillnad som är konstigt frånvarande från engelska. Detsamma är närvarande i polska: „znać” mot „wiedzieć”. Det är jag som sabbade genom att minnas ”känna” och glömma ”veta”.
It seems to be a basic distinction that is weirdly absent in English. The same is present in Polish: „znać” vs „wiedzieć”. It's me that effed up by recalling ”känna” and forgetting about ”veta”.

(Okay, the boundaries are a bit blurry, since you can say „ich weiß die Tatsache“ in German, but not „ja wiem ten fakt” in Polish, but they still are sharp enough to draw some analogies between languages.)

[hwhatting]

(Okay, the boundaries are a bit blurry, since you can say „ich weiß die Tatsache“ in German, but not „ja wiem ten fakt” in Polish,

Dla mnie, „ich weiß die Tatsache“ nie jest poprawne. Gdzie to uwidziałeś / usyszałeś?
For me, „ich weiß die Tatsache“ is wrong. Where did you see / hear that?

[linguoboy]

En fait, quand j'enseigne cette différence je me penche plus sur l'usage de "savoir" que sur l'usage de "connaître" et j'explique aux étudiants qu'il se peut que "connaître" s'emploie plus fréquemment que "savoir" en français (bien que je n'aie aucune preuve empirique) ".

Im Cajun-Französisch gibt es savoir nicht, nur connaître. Man sagt j'connais pas, wenn man etwas nicht weiss.
Dans le français cadien, savoir n'existe pas, il n'y a que connaître. On dit j'connais pas quand on ne sait pas quelque chose.
In Cajun French, savoir doesn't exist, just connaître. You say j'connais pas when you don't know something.

[Znex]

Haha, nein, ich habe "welche Wort war britisch im Satz" gemeint. Wir haben vielleicht Betonung gebraucht um zu verstehen aber wir können es nicht im Internet tun.

Haha, no, I meant "what word was a Briticism in the sentence?" We perhaps needed intonation in order to understand but we can't do that on the internet.

‚got off‘, det gætter jeg.
"got off", I suppose.

In my opinion, we shouldn't talk about such a distinction when learning "kanna" and "veta" or "kennen" and "wissen" or "connaître" and "savoir'." Given that these could change between the languages illustrated here, at least in French "connaître" is not only used to signify the knowledge of a personne but also a good knowledge of something in itself, as in "to be familiar with" in English. This means that I can say "je ne connais pas."

Åh, er det, hvordan virker det? Jeg undrede mig...
Oh, is that how it works? I wondered...

[linguoboy]

Haha, no, I meant "what word was a Briticism in the sentence?" We perhaps needed intonation in order to understand but we can't do that on the internet.

‚got off‘, det gætter jeg.
"got off", I suppose.

get off...9. intr. slang (orig. U.S.). Freq. with on. a. To achieve sexual satisfaction; to experience an orgasm; cf. to get one's rocks off at rock n.¹ Phrases 9.

Was die Engländer nicht über ihre eigne Sprache wissen...
What the English don't know about their own language...

Ihr habt doch nicht sämtliche Redewundungen erfunden.
Y'all didn't come up with all the idioms.

[Pole, the]

Dla mnie, „ich weiß die Tatsache“ nie jest poprawne. Gdzie to widziałeś~zobaczyłeś / słyszałeś~usłyszałeś?
For me, „ich weiß die Tatsache“ is wrong. Where did you see / hear that?

Jag tog det (delvis) från linguoboys postning. Det har flera träffar på Google, så jag fel antog att det är rätt.
I took it (partly) from linguoboy's post. It has some hits on Google, so I wrongly assumed it's right.

[hwhatting]

For me, „ich weiß die Tatsache“ is wrong. Where did you see / hear that?

I took it (partly) from linguoboy's post. It has some hits on Google, so I wrongly assumed it's right.

I did some googling - you can find these words together, but they're normally part of a bigger construction. One frequent case is Ich weiß die Tatsache zu schätzen "I know to appreciate the fact = I appreciate the fact", where Tatsache is the object of schätzen, which in turn is complementing wissen. Besides such cases, where Tatsache is the object of a verb governed by wissen, there are also cases where there is a comma between wissen and Tatsache, i.e. Tatsache is not the object of wissen, but in a separate clause (e.g. ich weiß, die Tatsache, dass Kaninchen schwimmen können, ist schwer zu glauben = "I know (that) the fact that rabbits can swim is hard to believe".

Króliki umieją pływać.
Lapins savent nager.
Konijnen kunnen zwimmen
Rabbits can swim.

[Imralu]

Generally, kennen has a nominal or pronominal object, whether it's a person or a thing. The object of wissen is generally a complement clause or a verb phrase. Ich kenne die Wahrheit. Ich weiß, was die Wahrheit ist. = I know the truth. I know what the truth is. Since facts are generally expressed as clauses and people are not, the distinction looks like a people/facts thing, but it's not really. It's essentially syntactical rather than semantic.

Ich hab Rücken. ~ Uh, das kenne ich. / Ich weiß, wie das ist, wenn... = I've got back pain. ~ Ooh, I know the feeling. / I know what it's like when...

[hwhatting]

Addendum: wissen can have a pronominal object if it stands in for a clause: Er ist gestern angekommen. - Das weiß ich schon. "He arrived yesterday. - I already know that."

[Viktor77]

La distinction reste moins claire en français. On peut bien dire "je ne le sais pas" ou "je sais la réponse" et en fait on ne dirait pas "je ne connais pas la réponse" sauf si on souhaitait insister sur une connaissance moins...absolute(?).

The distinction remains less clear in French. One can say "je ne le sais pas" or "je sais la réponse" and in fact one wouldn't say "je ne connais pas la réponse" except if one desired to insist upon a less absolute(?) knowledge.

Übrigens, Sal, ganz recht! Ich kann nur Deutsch schreiben und lesen (und eben nicht so gut). Ich habe schon immer mal mehr Deutsch sprechen wollten, aber ich mache wohl nicht selten keine Fortschritte.

By the way, Sal, I hear ya! I can only write and read German (and not so good at that). I have always wanted to speak more German, but I'm unlikely making much useful progress.

[linguoboy]

I took it (partly) from linguoboy's post.

Hei! Paid â rhoi'r bai arna fi!
Hey! Don't put this on me!

hą́ąpa watástosta wacúe bréhka ahkihpáaɣe. wacúexo oščé che braanie.
Today I made myself some pecan pancakes. I used up what was left of the flour.

[hwhatting]

The distinction remains less clear in French. One can say "je ne le sais pas" or "je sais la réponse" and in fact one wouldn't say "je ne connais pas la réponse" except if one desired to insist upon a less absolute(?) knowledge.

Similar in German - ich weiß die Antwort nicht is possible and roughly analogous to ich kenne die Antwort nicht.

Übrigens, Sal, ganz recht! Ich kann nur Deutsch nur schreiben und lesen (und auch nicht so gut). Ich habe schon immer mal mehr Deutsch sprechen wollten, aber ich mache wahrscheinlich keine brauchbaren Fortschritte.

By the way, Sal, I hear ya! I can only write and read German (and not so good at that). I have always wanted to speak more German, but I'm unlikely making much useful progress.

Czy są ludzie, ze którymi możesz mówić po niemiecku?
Est-ce qu'ily a des gens avec lesquelles tu peux parler l'allemand?
Zijn er menschen met die je kunt Duits spreken?
Are there People with whom you can talk German?

[Viktor77]

Est-ce qu'il y a des gens avec qui tu peux parler l'allemand?
Are there people with whom you can speak German?

Ja, es gibt eine Sorte von deutscher Unterhaltungstunde auf dem Campus. Ich würde gerne dabei sein, wenn ich erstmal weniger gestresst bin.

Yes, there is a sort of German conversation hour on campus. I would like to attend once I am less stressed.

[linguoboy]

An meiner Uni haben wir diese "Sprachtische" genannt.
At my university we called these "language tables."

[Dē Graut Bʉr]

Waarom niet? Maar toen ik in België was, heeft ieederen gedacht dacht iedereen dat ik duitser Duits was.
En wat hebben dachten de mensen gedacht, toen je in Duitsland was?
Finlay, wat is een briticisme?
wat voor een vraag nou!
het is een woord dat de Britten (of de personen mensen die in de het Verenigde Koninkrijk geboren zijn) dikwijls gebruiken
Nu ja, men kann* woorden onderstrepen of vette of cursieve schrift tekst gebruiken.
Konijnen kunnen zwemmen
Zijn er menschen met die wie je kunt Duits kunt spreken?

*"Men kan" (with only one n) is grammatically correct, though "je kunt" (or "je kan" if you like to ignore the grammar nazis) is more common.

Jag känner vet inte, jag skulle fråga ”Var är briticismen”.
Jag är van vid att använda stor bokstav för betoning. Vilken Vilket blir förvirrande när jag läser tyska.
Du har nog rätt nog.
Som är „kennen“ i tysk. Liksom "kennen" på tyska.
Det verkar vara en grundläggande skillnad som konstigt nog är konstigt frånvarande från engelskan. Detsamma är närvarande i polskan: „znać” mot „wiedzieć”. Det är jag som sabbade genom att minnas ”känna” och glömma ”veta”.
Jag tog det (delvis) från linguoboys postning. Det har flera träffar på Google, så jag fel antog av misstag att det är rätt.

Notice: this comes from a Swede born and grown up outside of Sweden. Some errors may have slipped through.

[Znex]

Are there people who you can speak German with?

I'm gonna go even further and correct this bit. The "PREP whom" construction is rarely used anymore outside the more formal situations; in internet conversation, postposed prepositions are most welcome. English prepositions tend to stick close to their governing verbs anyway.

[Viktor77]

Are there people who you can speak German with?

I'm gonna go even further and correct this bit. The "PREP whom" construction is rarely used anymore outside the more formal situations; in internet conversation, postposed prepositions are most welcome. English prepositions tend to stick close to their governing verbs anyway.

I'd go even further and say if you want to say this as informally as possible you'd drop the 'who.'

[Znex]

Are there people who you can speak German with?

I'm gonna go even further and correct this bit. The "PREP whom" construction is rarely used anymore outside the more formal situations; in internet conversation, postposed prepositions are most welcome. English prepositions tend to stick close to their governing verbs anyway.

I'd go even further and say if you want to say this as informally as possible you'd drop the 'who.'

Yeah, pretty much. Relative pronouns/whatever can usually be dropped.

[Imralu]

Are there people who you can speak German with?

I'm gonna go even further and correct this bit. The "PREP whom" construction is rarely used anymore outside the more formal situations; in internet conversation, postposed prepositions are most welcome. English prepositions tend to stick close to their governing verbs anyway.

I'd go even further and say if you want to say this as informally as possible you'd drop the 'who.'

Yeah, pretty much. Relative pronouns/whatever can usually be dropped.

Well, only if they're the object of a verb or preposition in a non-defining relative clause, although having said that, I'm pretty sure there are British dialects that can even drop subject relative pronouns like "Are there people can speak German with you?" ... hmm, maybe not in that instance, but I'm sure I've heard some Brits do something like that.

[Imralu]

Addendum: wissen can have a pronominal object if it stands in for a clause: Er ist gestern angekommen. - Das weiß ich schon. "He arrived yesterday. - I already know that."

Oh yeah, lol. That's basically the most common use so I just didn't even think about it. Ich weiß es nicht. And you should have seen the look on one of my students faces when he asked me about why he hears people often say "Weiß ich nicht," instead of "Ich weiß nicht," and I told him there's basically a silent "das" at the beginning. It was the best way I could think to explain it.

[linguoboy]

Wir haben den Thread hier durch übermäßige Diskussion abgemurkst.
We did in this thread with too much discussion.

Ich hab einen GoFundMe gestartet, um einen Grabstein dafür zu kaufen.
I started a GoFundMe to buy a headstone for it.

[Salmoneus]

Are there people who you can speak German with?

I'm gonna go even further and correct this bit. The "PREP whom" construction is rarely used anymore outside the more formal situations; in internet conversation, postposed prepositions are most welcome. English prepositions tend to stick close to their governing verbs anyway.

That's not really correction, just stylistic/dialectical suggestions. "People with whom you can speak German" is much more likely in writing than in speech, but it's also, alimd, more graceful, and something that would get you kudos rather than disdain from listeners for using. [Assuming you're not dealing with angry young working class people, but even they would probably be OK with it from a foreigner].

In writing, I'd usually use the 'with whom' construction.

And actually, I agree that if you're going to invert the construction, it's better to drop the pronoun: "people you can speak German with."

[Viktor77]

Ok we moeten stoppen met praten Engels. Deze draad is om een vreemde taal te oefenen. Als jullie iets in het Engels debatteren willen, dan zou jullie een andere draad moeten finden.

Het lijkt er op dat ik geen andere draad op deze forum gebruiken...vreemd.

Ok we must stop speaking ENglish. This thread is for praactiving a foreign language. If you all want to debate something in English, then you should find another thread.

It appears that I frequent no other thread on this forum...weird.