Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlearn
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Actually, I think it also relates to class and education. I think it's more of a middle-class thing and that kind of demographic is over represented in Paris (though it's definitely more common here). I think women do it more than men too; I wish I could find a serious resource on the subject.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I don't think you two are talking about the same phenomenon.
- What linguoboy mentions (['jɛsːə] for yes) does sound like Southern French. Again, Southern French speakers tend to pronounce all "e muets", and even sometimes add a schwa to break consonant clusters. For instance, in Marseilles, pneu becomes [pənø] instead of standard [pnø]. It's not a surprise if Southern French speakers end up adding schwas when speaking English.
- What Ars Lande mentions seems more of a tendency to add an "euh" sound at the end of sentences. That's a verbal tic more than a pronunciation difference, I think.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I think Ars Lande meant prosodic units (which, in French, can be single words as well as complete sentences), so it would be the same thing.Ryusenshi wrote:What Ars Lande mentions seems more of a tendency to add an "euh" sound at the end of sentences. That's a verbal tic more than a pronunciation difference, I think.
Well, French /i/ is extremely close to a fricative anyway, so going → [ʝ̩] and then devoicing it phrase-finally doesn't seem unusual.Speaking of annoying pronunciations, another common feature of Parisian French is to add a voiceless fricative [ç] when a sentence ends with a high front vowel, e.g. merci becomes [mɛχsiç]. I recently realized, to my horror, that I do it all the time. I'm currently trying to stop doing it.
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If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Leliana does this in Dragon Age; I found it rather endearing.Ryusenshi wrote:Speaking of annoying pronunciations, another common feature of Parisian French is to add a voiceless fricative [ç] when a sentence ends with a high front vowel, e.g. merci becomes [mɛχsiç]. I recently realized, to my horror, that I do it all the time. I'm currently trying to stop doing it.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Ryusenshi wrote: Speaking of annoying pronunciations, another common feature of Parisian French is to add a voiceless fricative [ç] when a sentence ends with a high front vowel, e.g. merci becomes [mɛχsiç]. I recently realized, to my horror, that I do it all the time. I'm currently trying to stop doing it.
Pole, the wrote: Well, French /i/ is extremely close to a fricative anyway, so going → [ʝ̩] and then devoicing it phrase-finally doesn't seem unusual.
I've recently noticed that with lots of German speakers as well. For example, "die" becomes [dʝ̩] or something similar. I find it extremely annoying. My own [iː] is lowered and closer to [eː] than to a syllabic fricative.
Meine Muttersprache ist Deutsch. My second language is English. Olim discēbam Latinam. Sú ginévam Jagárhvejak. Opiskelen Suomea. Un ek kür en lütten Tick Platt.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Early teens:
underendowed, where "endow" is pronounced ['ɛn.do]. I knew exactly what the word meant from the context, so I assumed that "endow" was simply a word for penis I'd never heard of before, and I liked it, because I've always disliked it when a Latin loanword punches its way to the top either as a euphemism for a native word or for 'scholarly' reasons such as "aquatic" instead of "water(borne)" or "underwater".
I remembered this one while i was in the shower this morning.
underendowed, where "endow" is pronounced ['ɛn.do]. I knew exactly what the word meant from the context, so I assumed that "endow" was simply a word for penis I'd never heard of before, and I liked it, because I've always disliked it when a Latin loanword punches its way to the top either as a euphemism for a native word or for 'scholarly' reasons such as "aquatic" instead of "water(borne)" or "underwater".
I remembered this one while i was in the shower this morning.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
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Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Qxentio wrote:Ryusenshi wrote: Speaking of annoying pronunciations, another common feature of Parisian French is to add a voiceless fricative [ç] when a sentence ends with a high front vowel, e.g. merci becomes [mɛχsiç]. I recently realized, to my horror, that I do it all the time. I'm currently trying to stop doing it.Pole, the wrote: Well, French /i/ is extremely close to a fricative anyway, so going → [ʝ̩] and then devoicing it phrase-finally doesn't seem unusual.
I've recently noticed that with lots of German speakers as well. For example, "die" becomes [dʝ̩] or something similar. I find it extremely annoying. My own [iː] is lowered and closer to [eː] than to a syllabic fricative.
phrase-final ç-excresence also happens in English; I have it
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
My theory is that French often adds a final /2/ to the end of intonatonal phrases so the stress has somewhere to fall. When speaking French one doesn't always properly plan intonational phrases so if the phrase can't permit final stress on the last syllable another syllable is added. This can be done regardless of whether or not the last syllable has a schwa.
I think the fricatization of final /i/ is also due to stress. It may follow the same paradigm where additional force is added to the /i/ when the phrase isn't ready to be finished and so it's like carrying over the stress through fricatization. This isn't exclusive to Paris. I learned to do this in Belgium and it's common even in some very high registers.
What's interesting in French is that the "parler jeune" is losing more and more liaison. When I was in Belgium I was exposed to the local parler jeune and so when I taught French a few weeks ago I told my students that liaison in "ils sont allés" is optional. It turns out it's required in the standard but to my ears and several of my francophone friends there was nothing wrong with /il sO~ ale/.
I think the fricatization of final /i/ is also due to stress. It may follow the same paradigm where additional force is added to the /i/ when the phrase isn't ready to be finished and so it's like carrying over the stress through fricatization. This isn't exclusive to Paris. I learned to do this in Belgium and it's common even in some very high registers.
What's interesting in French is that the "parler jeune" is losing more and more liaison. When I was in Belgium I was exposed to the local parler jeune and so when I taught French a few weeks ago I told my students that liaison in "ils sont allés" is optional. It turns out it's required in the standard but to my ears and several of my francophone friends there was nothing wrong with /il sO~ ale/.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Oh? I guess I forget being taught that, or I was taught non-standard French. The rules I remember learning for obligatory liaisons are:Viktor77 wrote:My theory is that French often adds a final /2/ to the end of intonatonal phrases so the stress has somewhere to fall. When speaking French one doesn't always properly plan intonational phrases so if the phrase can't permit final stress on the last syllable another syllable is added. This can be done regardless of whether or not the last syllable has a schwa.
I think the fricatization of final /i/ is also due to stress. It may follow the same paradigm where additional force is added to the /i/ when the phrase isn't ready to be finished and so it's like carrying over the stress through fricatization. This isn't exclusive to Paris. I learned to do this in Belgium and it's common even in some very high registers.
What's interesting in French is that the "parler jeune" is losing more and more liaison. When I was in Belgium I was exposed to the local parler jeune and so when I taught French a few weeks ago I told my students that liaison in "ils sont allés" is optional. It turns out it's required in the standard but to my ears and several of my francophone friends there was nothing wrong with /il sO~ ale/.
- between subject pronouns and a following word in the same VP (the word following a subject pronoun is nearly always in the same VP in modern French)
- between a determiner and a following word in the same NP
- before a plural noun preceded by another word in the same NP
- between a verb and a following cliticized pronoun (e.g. "sont-ils")
and traditionally between prepositions and nouns, though I had read that that is relatively commonly left out at least some of the time by native speakers. Wikipedia suggests that adjective-noun is also not made all the time, which I hadn't remembered, and lists adverb-adjective, which I had forgotten (and which are clearly not made by all speakers all the time; for example it lists "trop amusé" and as a learner I know I have never thought I needed to tried to make liaisons with "trop.")
Liaisons between a verb and a following non-cliticized word, even when the verb is an auxiliary and the following word is the associated conjugated verb, were always presented to me as optional. Some of them are relatively common, of course, like "c'est un/une"--I generally use /t/ in this one, although I doubt it's really necessary.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Posthumous /p@Ust.'hju:.m@s/
[i]Linguistics will become a science when linguists begin standing on one another's shoulders instead of on one another's toes.[/i]
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
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—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Comedy Gold.Soap wrote:I remembered this one while i was in the shower this morning.
Meine Muttersprache ist Deutsch. My second language is English. Olim discēbam Latinam. Sú ginévam Jagárhvejak. Opiskelen Suomea. Un ek kür en lütten Tick Platt.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
<patio> baffles me every time I hear it spoken aloud as [ˈpæ.ɾi.o͜ʊ]. I always read the word as [ˈpe͜ɪ.ʃo͜ʊ] in my head.
Meine Muttersprache ist Deutsch. My second language is English. Olim discēbam Latinam. Sú ginévam Jagárhvejak. Opiskelen Suomea. Un ek kür en lütten Tick Platt.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
My husband (who grew up in the South Bay area of California) always had the PALM vowel here, perhaps due to Hispanophone influence. Sounded really odd to me the first few times--all the more so given that the name of his hometown, Los Gatos, belonged to the TRAP set (and the Los was LOT instead of GOAT so at first I was confused whether it was Los or Las).Qxentio wrote:<patio> baffles me every time I hear it spoken aloud as [ˈpæ.ɾi.o͜ʊ]. I always read the word as [ˈpe͜ɪ.ʃo͜ʊ] in my head.
In short, if I'd been reading the name, I would've said /ˌloːsˈgatoːz/, but instead I imitated his /ˌlasˈgætoːz/.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
nematode. I actually had this one correct when I was a kid (/'nɛ.mə.tod/), but when I watched an episode of Doug (a children's TV show) entitled "Bag the Neematoad", I figured I just had been wrong about the pronunciation, having only seen it print up until then. But I was right, as I learned recently, after probably more than 20 years. As with nearly all of my other examples, though, it hardly matters since I basically never used the word in spoken language. The same would apply to trematode.
spurious
puerperal
puerile
All without the /j/ offglide after the /p/. Someone laughed at me once when I said "spoorious" and I realized immediately what she was laughing at, but I didnt let it bother me because, in my mind, I was winning the argument and that was just a distraction. (I have no idea what the argument was about, its a distant memory now.)
Quoted from further back in the thread:
spurious
puerperal
puerile
All without the /j/ offglide after the /p/. Someone laughed at me once when I said "spoorious" and I realized immediately what she was laughing at, but I didnt let it bother me because, in my mind, I was winning the argument and that was just a distraction. (I have no idea what the argument was about, its a distant memory now.)
Quoted from further back in the thread:
I still do this, but only in the word "antialias" (Photoshop/graphics editing term). Unlike most others, this is a word I may have actually said out loud a few times during classes, but I might have caught myself and used the proper pronunciation when I did so.frankskim wrote:Also, I used to [...] shift the initial stress of "alias" onto the following syllable (with accompanying incorrect vowels, schwa and /ai/)
linguoboy wrote:Someone just reminded me that for ages I thought febrile was /ˈfɛbrɪl/ or /ˈfɛbraɪl/. (I suppose I was taking my cue from February.)
I think with words like this, when I see them in print, I mentally read them with an intermediate vowel I wouldnt be able to clearly represent in IPA. I think it's fairly close to schwa, but not a simple schwa. It's sort of like how conlanging has influenced me to mentally read all foreign words with vocalic "y" as having /ɨ~ɯ/ and when I was younger I would read foreign words with "x" (e.g. Abraxas) with /ɣ/ or /ʒ/. (In my more recent conlangs, "x" is just /x/.)Sumelic wrote:This one isn't incorrect, but I'm reconsidering my pronunciation of "feral" as /ferəl/ now that I've learned that the pronunciation /firəl/ also exists. I have to think about which one makes more sense to me.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I just (like minutes ago) learned that "preterite" isn't /pritərɑɪt/ but instead /prɛtərɪt/.
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Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Darn.jal wrote:I just (like minutes ago) learned that "preterite" isn't /pritərɑɪt/ but instead /prɛtərɪt/.
JAL
I had the first vowel right, but assume /aI/ for the last because gosh darn it that's how -ite is always pronounced. I think the problem sometimes is words that are Latinate, and to most of us seem like late loans, but that to some cabal of lexicographers were loaned much earlier, so they've undergone more soundchanges than they "should" have. Maybe?
Anyway, you're probably not alone on the first vowel either.
I actually have the opposite mistake, in 'preternatural', where I pronounce the first vowel short, as in 'preterite'...
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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I didn't know that either; I pronounced preterite as /ˈprɛtəˌraɪt/
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
...Is that not how it's pronounced? *looks it up* Lies! Scurrilous lies! I refuse to believe that this word is pronounced with a long vowel. O_OSalmoneus wrote:I actually have the opposite mistake, in 'preternatural', where I pronounce the first vowel short, as in 'preterite'...
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
To me, "preternatural," like "febrile," seems to be a case where it's not obvious that the less common pronunciation really deserves to be called "incorect." The two pronunciations of "preter-" seem to have arisen fairly randomly. Walker (1791) shows it with "long e" in all words in which it occurs, including "preterit," even though he's generally a big proponent of applying regular trisyllabic laxing and he's also against giving a long value to "ae" (or "e" derived from "ae") when it's in an environment where normal "e" would regularly be pronounced short (e.g. he advocated the pronunciation of "Daedalus" as "Deddalus" rather than as "Deedalus").
Then modern pronunciation guide author Charles Harrington Elster advocates "pree-ternatural," but the very fact that he feels like he has to advocate for it shows that it's not unversally pronounced the way he would like.
Then modern pronunciation guide author Charles Harrington Elster advocates "pree-ternatural," but the very fact that he feels like he has to advocate for it shows that it's not unversally pronounced the way he would like.
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Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I can understand the pronunciation of "Los", esp. given "Los Angeles", but /ˈgætoːz/ makes my teeth curl a bit. Oh. But with t-flapping it's probably something like [ˈgæɾoʊz]. "gaddows". euggghhh.linguoboy wrote:In short, if I'd been reading the name, I would've said /ˌloːsˈgatoːz/, but instead I imitated his /ˌlasˈgætoːz/.
Then again ...
For whatever reason, I'm with you on "spurious". I even feel that pronouncing it with the /j/ would sound weird.Soap wrote:spurious
No idea about "puerperal". Don't think I've ever seen/heard that before. But ... ...
Oh God. For some reason I've always thought of this as /ˈpwer.ɪl ~ ˈpwer.əl/. Even though of course puer has to be /ˈpu.er/. Scio Latine! Re vere!.Soap wrote:puerile
Although, this makes me wonder ... is resistance [ˈfjuɾɪl] or [ˈfju.tʰaɪ̯l]?
Well. Glad I got something right.I just (like minutes ago) learned that "preterite" isn't /pritərɑɪt/ but instead /prɛtərɪt/.
Είναι όλα Ελληνικά για μένα.Radius Solis wrote:The scientific method! It works, bitches.
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I use /ˈgætoʊs/, for some reason. With flapping, so [ˈgæɾoʊs].Boşkoventi wrote:I can understand the pronunciation of "Los", esp. given "Los Angeles", but /ˈgætoːz/ makes my teeth curl a bit. Oh. But with t-flapping it's probably something like [ˈgæɾoʊz]. "gaddows". euggghhh.linguoboy wrote:In short, if I'd been reading the name, I would've said /ˌloːsˈgatoːz/, but instead I imitated his /ˌlasˈgætoːz/.
My first mental pronunciation of this word didn't include /j/, but as soon as I learned the standard pronunciation I resolved to switch to it. I basically never say it aloud, so I don't know how effectively I've actually adjusted my pronunciation, but I think I'd be at least 60% likely to use a /j/ now. It's odd because yod-dropping after labials in Latinate words like this is quite uncommon; it's more often seen after velars as in gubernatorial, lugubrious, lacuna (or of course after coronals, where it is regular for a great many speakers), but I guess the variation in the pronunciation of "puma" is synchronically the same kind of thing.Boşkoventi wrote:For whatever reason, I'm with you on "spurious". I even feel that pronouncing it with the /j/ would sound weird.Soap wrote:spurious
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I used to have STRUT in the first syllable, but then again, I only knew the word from "spurious IRQ7".spurious
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Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
I remember bringing this topic up before, here on the ZBB, since I heard it from my French professors all the time in words like donc and neuf before a pause, and I was told by a Francophone here that it was just the filler "euh" (as Ryusenshi does in this thread), even though to me it really and obviously is not. So I'm somewhat glad to see you recognizing it.Ars Lande wrote:Actually, I think it also relates to class and education. I think it's more of a middle-class thing and that kind of demographic is over represented in Paris (though it's definitely more common here). I think women do it more than men too; I wish I could find a serious resource on the subject.
In fact, I remember once finding a paper on this topic (which I couldn't find again for this post), which mentioned that not only is this process attested in French, but also in Galician (where they add -i to words, so that pan becomes ["pani]).
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
The first is the typical American pronunciation; the second is the typical English pronunciation. That being said, I think a lot of us have picked up the second pronunciation thanks to a certain Locutus of Borg.Boşkoventi wrote:Although, this makes me wonder ... is resistance [ˈfjuɾɪl] or [ˈfju.tʰaɪ̯l]?
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Incorrect pronunciations you have (or have had) to unlea
Did anyone else think that "anime" was actually a native English word? I gave it a clumsy pronunciation, /æ.naɪm/, with both syllables stressed, thinking it was simply the stem from which words like "animate" come from. This was pre-Internet, but I could see myself making the same assumption if I were just encountering the word for the first time now.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says: