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zompist bboard • View topic - Protolang Reconstruction Challenge (Akana)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:04 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:35 pm 
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Also, just to be sure, the information regarding Old Yalan is far from complete at the moment, as can be seen, and would probably need to be updated. So, if you have any question about it, feel free to contact me.

* * *

And, as a teaser, several of the already gathered cognate sets, rendered as a table:
(some of them can be wrongly connected)




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Last edited by Pole, the on Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:35 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:22 am 
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Just when I'm busy deriving the last descendant of PL this happens. Oh well, at least it's another motivation to go faster. I'll just make some shots in the dark:

1 - *not
2 - *nʲek
3 - *sa
4 - *ʔkep
6 - *toʔk
7 - *mul
9 - *ola
10 - *anada

Other than that, I'm looking forward to reading the others' reconstruction. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:52 pm 
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I suggest that you choose a name for the language family. If you have no idea, what do you think about, for instance, Idanuic (from Ced. ıdanu father) or Kataic (from Ced. kata man)?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:08 pm 
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+1. That would be cooler than "proto-T1."

I have a (probably stupid) question about the Cednitit language. How do you know the word for one, "ot" was at some point pronounced like something like [otʰ], if I understand the instructions given it should be pronounced like [oʔ]? Are we sure the glottal stop comes from an aspirated stop? Or does the "t" just means it was an alveolar stop.

For the declension of Yalan group, I guess that: genitive is in [-h], locative in [-tu] or [-tau], maybe an old particle that have been absorbed in the declension system, in West Yalan (WY) the "tu" can be independent, nominative being non-marked. The accusative 1 in East Yalan (EY) seems to have the same origin as the accusative in Early North Yalan (NY) with a [-k] suffix. The accusative 2 in EY and oblique in WY is less obvious, a [-u] suffix?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:24 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:27 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:22 pm 
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Anybody want to take a crack at this?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:29 am 
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There has been some interest in a challenge like this one over on the Conlang Mailing List, so I'm bumping this once again. Also, it's been almost exactly five years since the protolanguage for this family was finished and work on the daughterlanguages began, so...

All the relevant information is . Anybody interested in having a go at this?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:12 am 
Sanci
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To clarify: is this a project to reconstruct a protolanguage that has not already been developed, or are there "answers" already?

I think it looks very interesting. I might give it a go, though how fast I'd make progress given my schedule remains to be seen.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:24 pm 
Sanno
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The protolanguage for this family is an actual conlang with grammar and lexicon, and it did serve as the basis for diachronically deriving all the daughterlanguages. It has been kept secret for the exact purpose of being reconstructed, and one of the major incentives of this game is to see to what extent the reconstruction actually matches the description of the protolanguage. (When the reconstruction is declared "done", the protolanguage will be revealed to the general public.)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:01 am 
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If you go on the you'll see that there have been several of these games over the past decade or so.

For me personally proto-T1 is the one I'm really excited by the prospect of, and I can't wait to see what people manage to come up with.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:50 am 
Sanci
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Fascinating! I'll take a look at what's been done so far and see if I have anything to add after I finish my classwork for the day.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:58 am 
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Has anyone else noticed that Hkətl’ohnim uvulars and some cases of /h/ tend to correspond with Omari ˤ denoting "flattening", and that even when that's not present the correspondences only show the Omari reflex after non-high vowels, and that Omari ˤ only ever occurs after dorsals and /h/? So I think we should definitely consider reconstructing uvulars for the proto-language, given the last point especially.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:26 am 
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OK, I'm going to post my own reconstructions of the numerals here just as a kind of outline as to how I'm kinda approaching this, and also to contrast with Zju's earlier reconstruction. I reconstruct the numerals thus:

1: *noː
2: *niakɪ~*niakʲ
3: *saː
4: *qep
5: *reː
6: *toqʰ
7: *mul
8: *feː
9: *oːlaː
10: *aːnataː

The first important departure point is that I consider Cednìtıt, Yalan and Ḏoarevutan aspirated stops to be conservative, while Yalan, Omari and Tumetıęk voiced consonants represent secondary developments. This is based on systematic correspondences between the unaspirated consonants and aspirated consonants in the first three with those consonants which do and don't respectively undergo softening in Omari and Tumetıęk, where softening occurs between vowels. (However in the case of Ced. the apparent wird-final aspirated stops appear to be due to an error in reading the Ced. data since all word-final stops are phonetically [ʔ] but are written using the graphemes for the aspirated stops based on their etymological POA; indeed much of the Ced. orthography (and hence representation in the comparative table) is strongly etymology-based).

Secondly I consider the Hkətl’ohnim uvular stops to be conservative. This is based on correspondences with the Omari process of flattening. I reconstruct them as true uvulars rather than as clusters due to the distribution of the Omari flattening process, since it only ever occurs with dorsal/glottal consonants, never with coronals or labials. There also appears to be a correspondence where in Ced. historical velar were fronted and these uvulars became the new velars, though this did not apply in all environments and more research needs to be done.

Other minor details: I reconstruct the diphthong in 2 on the basis of the Hkətl’ohnim form; the Yalan and Omari forms could descend from *ie or *ia, and the /e/ in the Tumetıęk form may be the result of fronting due to the palatal articulation of the following consonant.

I also provisionally reconstruct 5 and 8 with the same vowel, as they have identical reflexes in all the languages except Tari, and in that language there may be some conditioning of the vowel which produces the separate reflexes, however this will require further investigation.

Finally I disregarded the Ced. form when reconstructing the form for 1, since this would require Ced. to lose the initial nasal in this one form and all the other daughters to lose the coda consonant instead, when there is at best only sporadic evidence for either process.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:21 am 
Lebom
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Reconsidering the numerals again, Cednìtit otʰ may not be a cognate to the other words for one at all: why would it lose initial n, yet nətʰ retain it? Considering that and the fact it has just one segment in common with others (tʰ may not be due to analogy, but original), the case for being a cognate is not that strong.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:55 am 
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Just added a load of Northeastern Bay cognates to the table, which is super helpful because they provide a lot of super-helpful information as to the correspondences, especially with regards to the clusters.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Good thing I started working on my stuff again. Don't worry no major changes. The NEB language is set in stone as far as sounds go, the only thing I'm working on there is fleshing out the grammar and beefing up the lexicon, also correcting the name to Thaxarevemni [tʰɑ.xɑ.ɻe.vem.ni]. Most of the work tho is on its descendent languages, which isn't as relevant for this task.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:48 am 
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I notice someone has added data for "Proto-Far Western" to the table; a language that has never been mentioned before AFAIK, and doesn't seem to be especially closely related to any of the known other T1 languages. I'm curious. What's up with this?

Also, I suggest keeping the "#C" column (number of apparent first-level cognates) updated whenever someone adds a word to the spreadsheet; sorting by this column will make searching for the most promising correspondences much easier.

And: Frislander, maybe you could suggest a name for the family at some point?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:58 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:09 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:08 pm 
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