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zompist bboard • View topic - /ç/ vs. /x/ in German

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 Post subject: /ç/ vs. /x/ in German
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:02 pm 
Lebom
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I know the general rule is /ç/ after close/front vowels and /x/ after back vowels, but it seems either can be used after the /ai/ diphthong, apparently dependent on the <ch>'s positioning. Is that characterization correct?

Eichmann gives us /ˈaɪxˌmɑn/, and Östereich give us /ˈøːstəʁaɪç/.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:23 pm 
Avisaru
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Dunno where you got that Eichmann pronunciation from, it is also pronounced with a soft ch. (Check on Wikipedia)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:06 pm 
Lebom
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I got Eichmann's pronunciation from .


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:08 pm 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:31 pm 
Lebom
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in my experience, dictionary.com has been bad for a very long time. Right now there's a link near the bottom for . Really, guys? Im not even gonna bother clicking to see what they mean by that and at what point does an "oldest English word" become a totally ordinary proto-Germanic word or Greek or Latin. I prefer Wiktionary and insome cases even Wikipedia, even though they dont usually list pronounciations, because thewy do provide keys to the IPA readouts for each language and usuall indicate if it's irregular.

m-w.com seems generally more reliable, even though i thik theyre the same company that owns dictionary.com & thesaurus. com .

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:56 pm 
Smeric
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:03 pm 
Avisaru
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The British definition from Collins given on the linked page (which uses IPA) does give the transcription /ˈaiçman/. I don't see /ˈaɪxˌmɑn/ anywhere on that page, actually. The Random-House-based transcription is "ahykh-mahn"; presumably whoever designed Dictionary.com's non-IPA transcription system either didn't know or didn't care about the distinction between the German ach-laut and ich-laut, so both are represented by "kh". I don't really know of a good way of indicating the distinction in this kind of re-spelling system anyway.

In addition to being used after front vowels, /ç/ is also used (at least in textbook German, the only kind that I have any familiarity with) after consonants (the main contexts where this is relevant are /nç/ and /lç/) and after vocalized "r".


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:40 pm 
Smeric
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Merriam-Webster is owned by Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. while dictionary.com is owned by IAC (InterActiveCorp)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:06 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:04 am 
Avisaru
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Austrian German doesn't have [ç], just stick to [x] and you're fine. Austrian German - best German.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:20 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:56 pm 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:54 pm 
Smeric
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:15 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:27 am 
Avisaru
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>I don't know where you get that information

From spending time in Austria, talking and listening to Austrians. When discussing recipes with the mother of my friend i said Essig with ç and she replied "ah, that's such a German pronunciation, we say ['ɛsɪk]"


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:33 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:26 am 
Avisaru
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Well, you can interpret it as you wish, it was just an example, another is [ˈmʏnχn̩] for Munich, another toponym is Kirchbichl [kxɪrχbɪχl]/[kxɪrxbɪxl] alternatively with [ɪɐ̯]. I should add though I'm mainly familiar with how Tiroleans speak and even when they speak Standard German the accent is very strong.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:10 am 
Smeric
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It helps if you talk about specific varieties of Austrian: most speak Central Austro-Bavarian, while Tirol, Carinthia, and western Upper Styria of Austria speak South Austro-Bavarian, which preserves more archaic features. Vorarlbergerisch is a High Alemmanic language and thus not closely related to the other two.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:33 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:41 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:07 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:54 pm 
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