Pey cues? eta Cadhinor er Avisar

Whimemsz · Post by **Whimemsz** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:01 pm

Why not IE?

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:11 pm

Why not IE?

There are doxens of other language families. It isn't even necessary to base it on one family.

Whimemsz · Post by **Whimemsz** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:13 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:
Why not IE?
There are doxens of other language families. It isn't even necessary to base it on one family.

Once again:

jburke wrote:Verdurian is obviously an IE-style language (begun twenty years ago, when IE langs had yet to be overdone)

So Haleza Grise · Post by **So Haleza Grise** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:15 pm

Whimemsz wrote:Why not IE?

Exactly; why should he strive to avoid IE-like features at any cost, as you (ie. Eddy, sorry to be confusing) seem to be advocating?

Even if Mark only ever wrote anything on the Eastern family (ie. just Verdurian, and its relatives), not on any other of the various languages/language families he's got going, he would still have a well-written, well-designed, and above all, extremely thorough set of conlangs. That's the important point. The second position is: do you think Mark has a Eurocentric mindset? I don't think you can, if you've looked at Elkaril. So what's wrong with his stated goal of making the 'base' languages (such as Verdurian) accesible to a European-familiar audience?

And of course, there's nothing necessarily Eurocentric in gaining an aesthetic appreciation of IE languages and the way they work. They're just as rich, varied and expressive as any other.

Oh, and voicing is a very common cross-language distinction. I don't think that speakers of Turkish or Japanese or Swahili could ever be claimed to be imitating IE languages. Also, implosives are exceptionally rare phonemes; but you make it sound as if not including them in a language is a failing.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:24 pm

Exactly; why should he strive to avoid IE-like features at any cost, as you (ie. Eddy, sorry to be confusing) seem to be advocating?

I don't advocate complete lack of IE features, even my conlang has IE elements(subjuctive mood, form of can and can't, form of "to be". Jburke says that can and can't is almost unique to English.)

Even if Mark only ever wrote anything on the Eastern family (ie. just Verdurian, and its relatives), not on any other of the various languages/language families he's got going, he would still have a well-written, well-designed, and above all, extremely thorough set of conlangs. That's the important point. The second position is: do you think Mark has a Eurocentric mindset? I don't think you can, if you've looked at Elkaril. So what's wrong with his stated goal of making the 'base' languages (such as Verdurian) accesible to a European-familiar audience?

If he hadn't made Elkaril, I definantly would begin to suspect that he has a eurocentric mindset.

And of course, there's nothing necessarily Eurocentric in gaining an aesthetic appreciation of IE languages and the way they work. They're just as rich, varied and expressive as any other.

I never said they weren't, it's just that Tolkien has also done them heavily.

Oh, and voicing is a very common cross-language distinction. I don't think that speakers of Turkish or Japanese or Swahili could ever be claimed to be imitating IE languages. Also, implosives are exceptionally rare phonemes; but you make it sound as if not including them in a language is a failing.

I wouldn't say that. K?t?l@u?kn?t?m? and Ptxf:(Yes, it has vowels, it's just that fricatives can be syllabic) are my only conlang with implosives.

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:29 pm

If he hadn't made Elkaril, I definantly would begin to suspect that he has a eurocentric mindset.

Er... because of his conlangs? That's like saying I'm black-prejudiced because none of my drawings resemble African art, or Asian-prejudiced because the dragons in my stories resemble European dragons, not Chinese ones.

jburke · Post by **jburke** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:31 pm

(subjuctive mood, form of can and can't, form of "to be". Jburke says that can and can't is almost unique to English.

When, exactly, did I say any of that? Copulas are not restricted to English or the IE family; Quechua has a copula, e.g. I merely said that the American language families I'm familiar with (Algonquian, Iroquios, Salishan) don't have them.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:37 pm

When, exactly, did I say any of that? Copulas are not restricted to English or the IE family; Quechua has a copula, e.g. I merely said that the American language families I'm familiar with (Algonquian, Iroquios, Salishan) don't have them.

I understand you.

Er... because of his conlangs? That's like saying I'm black-prejudiced because none of my drawings resemble African art, or Asian-prejudiced because the dragons in my stories resemble European dragons, not Chinese ones

His protagonists speak a language based on IE langs and having never seen what they are supposed to look like, I really don't know what his mindset it. I suppose I wouldn't be right to, but I never said I was perfect.

jburke · Post by **jburke** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:40 pm

Eddy, the language and cultural families that a conartist works in will usually reflect his interests and passions. My passions lay with the ancient cultures and languages of North America; Mark's seem to lay with Romance and Russian culture (if Verduria is any guide). Neither one of us is mindlessly plodding in Tolkien's--or anyone else's--footsteps.

Yes, Almea as it stands now is very European--just as Daszeria is very Indian. There's nothing wrong with pursuing one's interests in his conwork.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:46 pm

Who speaks Verdurian? What species?

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:47 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:Who speaks Verdurian? What species?

Humans. Uesti (i think).

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:51 pm

Who are the bad guys?

Mecislau · Post by **Mecislau** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:00 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:Who are the bad guys?

I guess you could say the ktuvoki, although this isn't a good-guy/bad-guy situation.

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:01 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:Who are the bad guys?

Er... what?

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:06 pm

I guess you could say the ktuvoki, although this isn't a good-guy/bad-guy situation.

I see.

Post by **zompist** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:14 pm

Many people have already made good points; let me just add a few things.

I'm afraid that counting IE-ish languages, or complaining about voiced consonants, or asking for full polysynthetism, strike me as rather shallow criticisms.

It can be fun to make a conlang that's quite unlike English. Been there, done that, wrote the website on it. Kebreni is designed to make choices differently from English in most areas, while Elkaril is designed to be unlike any human language in multiple ways.

However, my goal in conlanging is never to simply accumulate linguistic oddities; as I've suggested before, that's fine if and only if you're a teenager. What I'm interested in is the depth of the subcreation. There's bits of Almea that no one will appreciate till they've had several linguistics courses or read the equivalent books.

Eventually there will be polysynthetic languages on Almea. There are plenty of other things to do, however.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:37 pm

If you don't make a language with clicks, I won't be disappointed, but it would be cool to see. I'll be waiting to see your polylangs when you get to them.