Murtany question

Mornche Geddick · Post by **Mornche Geddick** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:27 am

Just been re-reading the Descent of lesuasi and decided to ask a question I've been wondering for some time.

Suppose you were a murtany and you decided that it was not the way to live. What would your options be, apart from martyrdom at the hands of your kin? Would the elcari be willing to take you? Would there be ordeals you would have to undergo to prove you were not a spy?

Post by **zompist** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:19 am

That's a great question; in fact, it'd make a great story. I dislike the apparent biological determinism of Tolkien's world-- it's hard to picture an orc deciding not to be evil any more. On the other hand, the elcari wouldn't exactly be welcoming.

(The easy solution might be to live among humans and pretend to be an elcar-- though this would involve a good deal more cultural and linguistic adjustment.)

WeepingElf · Post by **WeepingElf** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:08 pm

Hallo!

zompist wrote:That's a great question; in fact, it'd make a great story. I dislike the apparent biological determinism of Tolkien's world-- it's hard to picture an orc deciding not to be evil any more. On the other hand, the elcari wouldn't exactly be welcoming.

Zompist, you are speaking out what I have been thinking for years. Te concept of an "evil race" is a smelly and racist one, and it is the one aspect I dislike most of Tolkien's otherwise rather well-designed world (and the many, usually less well-designed derivatives thereof). Many years ago, I attempted to run a Middle-earth-based roleplaying campaign where not all orcs were savage and evil, but some were civilized. Unfortunately, it wasn't particularly well-received by the players

Needless to say, there are no "evil races" in any of my worlds.

Greetings,

Jörg a.k.a. WeepingElf

Mornche Geddick · Post by **Mornche Geddick** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:56 am

WeepingElf wrote:Hallo!

zompist wrote:That's a great question; in fact, it'd make a great story. I dislike the apparent biological determinism of Tolkien's world-- it's hard to picture an orc deciding not to be evil any more. On the other hand, the elcari wouldn't exactly be welcoming.
Zompist, you are speaking out what I have been thinking for years. Te concept of an "evil race" is a smelly and racist one, and it is the one aspect I dislike most of Tolkien's otherwise rather well-designed world (and the many, usually less well-designed derivatives thereof). Many years ago, I attempted to run a Middle-earth-based roleplaying campaign where not all orcs were savage and evil, but some were civilized. Unfortunately, it wasn't particularly well-received by the players

Needless to say, there are no "evil races" in any of my worlds.

Greetings,

Jörg a.k.a. WeepingElf

I seem to remember reading something about someone making a sort of black-on-white Tolkienesque story (or was it an RPG?). In it the elves and humans were evil and terrorised peaceful orcs and trolls. Has anyone else heard about it?

Post by **zompist** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:35 pm

Mornche Geddick wrote:I seem to remember reading something about someone making a sort of black-on-white Tolkienesque story (or was it an RPG?). In it the elves and humans were evil and terrorised peaceful orcs and trolls. Has anyone else heard about it?

You might be thinking of Mary Gentle's Grunts, which takes the point of view of the orcs; or the very funny fictional Noam Chomsky commentary on LOTR:

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2003/04/22fellowship.html

- · Post by - » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:42 pm

zompist wrote:. . . or the very funny fictional Noam Chomsky commentary on LOTR:

"Saruman is trying to break up Gandalf's pipe-weed ring" was a particularly priceless moment...

WeepingElf · Post by **WeepingElf** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:25 pm

Mornche Geddick wrote:I seem to remember reading something about someone making a sort of black-on-white Tolkienesque story (or was it an RPG?). In it the elves and humans were evil and terrorised peaceful orcs and trolls. Has anyone else heard about it?

Sounds like the "Black Book of Arda". I know next to nothing about it, but there are apparently some people working on a rewriting of the Silmarillion with good and evil reversed.

Greetings,

Jörg a.k.a. WeepingElf

BGMan · Post by **BGMan** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:22 pm

This isn't quite related, but I personally think that the word "dwarf" doesn't really go too well with the elcari -- they aren't fat enough and don't have beards.

Mark was smart not to use it consistently.

However, I can't help thinking that "gnome" and "goblin" would describe the elcari and murtani (respectively) perfectly.

BG

Ezekiel · Post by **Ezekiel** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:10 am

WeepingElf wrote:Te[sic] concept of an "evil race" is a smelly and racist one, and it is the one aspect I dislike most of Tolkien's otherwise rather well-designed world.

While I can see where you're coming from, there are certain ways in which an entire species *could* be irreconcilable with the rest of society, though not necessarily "evil" per se. If an entire bioform were afflicted with, say, extreme sociopathic personality disorder, or if a species were exclusively xenophobic by their very nature, it would be possible for a "bad" race. I'm not advocating this by any means, but it's still possible.

Also, one must remember such races as the Daleks from Doctor Who. They really *are* evil because they were designed that way. Their creator, Davros, purposefully manipulated their genetics to remove all traces of love, kindness, conscience, and morality. They are, from before birth, naturally xenophobic and homicidal.

Neek · Post by **Neek** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:14 pm

Mornche Geddick wrote:I seem to remember reading something about someone making a sort of black-on-white Tolkienesque story (or was it an RPG?). In it the elves and humans were evil and terrorised peaceful orcs and trolls. Has anyone else heard about it?

You're thinking of the overall backstory of Warcraft. In it, the alliance (humans and elves, among other races) have more or less screwed over the entire world in personal interest and now trying to mop it up. The Horde, consisting of Trolls and Orcs (who're being fueled and pumped up by a demon) are trying to revert to a more natural way of life, being led by the Taurens (minotaur posing plains' indians, more or less).

It's all a rather story. Fun game, too.

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:13 pm

Neek wrote:
Mornche Geddick wrote:I seem to remember reading something about someone making a sort of black-on-white Tolkienesque story (or was it an RPG?). In it the elves and humans were evil and terrorised peaceful orcs and trolls. Has anyone else heard about it?
You're thinking of the overall backstory of Warcraft. In it, the alliance (humans and elves, among other races) have more or less screwed over the entire world in personal interest and now trying to mop it up. The Horde, consisting of Trolls and Orcs (who're being fueled and pumped up by a demon) are trying to revert to a more natural way of life, being led by the Taurens (minotaur posing plains' indians, more or less).

It's all a rather story. Fun game, too.

Well, the Humans basically just reacted to stuff happening. It's all the elves' fault in the beginning.