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zompist bboard • View topic - Morphosyntactic alignment

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:36 pm 
Niš
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:30 pm 
Niš
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Well I'm not going to argue with you! :P

(serriously, I'll have a look over it in the moning)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:34 pm 
Sanci
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Interesting:

Well, Berag groups A and P together, with S marked differently. Actually this has evolved from an archaic finite-infinite distinction- nouns aren't marked.

As for the "secondary" alignment... That's harder to get my head around :? I think Berag would actually mark them differently... In the case of "He gives her a book" then "her" would be benefactive and "book" would be instrumental.

I've confused myself now....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:59 pm 
Lebom
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The man of science is perceiving and endowed with vision whereas he who is ignorant and neglectful of this development is blind. The investigating mind is attentive, alive; the mind callous and indifferent is deaf and dead. - 'Abdu'l-Bahá


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:19 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:11 pm 
Niš
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The red is for the S A P grouping, and the black is for the P T R group. (I think.)

In which case, my language is ergative-dative. The Subject, Patient, and Theme are all in the absolutive case, with the Agent marked in the ergative case. The Receiver is in the ablative case and requires a postposition (which could be one of a few).
(This is assuming I understand this concept.)

So, as examples, we have (lazily glossed):
Intransitive:
Ge's tiktik-'kap.
Building-ABS fall.apart-has
The building has fallen apart.

Monotransitive:
Thei 'sirwo-iong 'ke.
he-ERG kill-is tree-ABS
He's killing the tree.

Ditransitive:
Sai pam-'dyc pem-sme ngom.
man-ERG give-is father-ABL-BENEFICIARY water-ABS
The man's giving his father water.

Worth noting, though, is that in a ditransitive sentence, the theme is placed at the end of the sentence, whereas the recipient directly follows the verb, where the patient would be in a transitive sentence.


Remember, though, you can't spell dechticaetiative without dative.


Last edited by Nuclear Gorilla on Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:17 pm 
Niš
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woah, i completely didn't consider alightment when i made Extmws, maybe i can sneak it in. as far as i've considered, most Extmws verbs change from transitive/intransitive on the usage. i think it might be tripartite.

with an A, R, T sentence it looks like this:
He carried the food to her.
È-Ba-vy wè-syz atlac-yab Ba.

subject recieves no mark, but if it is an agent it can recieves the particle -twx (by way of/because of), but the theme recieves particles like -syz used when the theme is able to be moved by hands, i.e. "smaller than a breadbox", -vex used with abstracts or intangibles, -çyç used when the theme is tangible, but can't be moved by hands like liquids), -sewz is for tangibles that are movable by heavy machinery or magick i.e. "bigger than a breadbox", and finally -gáàn for tangibles that are completely unmovable. this disction is all a part of the implicit gender of an object, and don't just go with verbs that express movement. the verb jañenec means "to desire/to want" but uses receptors just like the verb atlac "to carry" a different receptor, though, would be used if what was desire was food (-syz) or a house (-sewz). the reciever gets the usual prepositional and preposition-like particles, such as -vy, -fy, -jy, -ly, and -tby.

there's a lot of grammar rules i haven't explored yet and a couple of rules that need adjusting.


Last edited by Shigeru on Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:06 pm 
Sanci
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:37 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:36 pm 
Avisaru
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My current project is both active-stative (with split triggered by some voices and aspects) and direct-inverse - as for the second thingie, it is dative.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:22 pm 
Sanci
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Lauzheu is accusative and dechticaetiative, for the most part. The situation is muddled by the fact that nouns are not declined at all; what you may have as case I applied to word order, which in my language is very strict. Some examples will help.

Most verbs that can take three arguments (such as lau "say", toi "teach", and fu "give") follow the dechticaetiative pattern:

-- So s-fu-s sha u vi.
me IMP.give.ACT child DAT money
I give money to the child.
-- So s-lau-s sha u t vi n-mo-n.
me IMP.say.ACT child DAT that money PERF.exist.PAS
I say to the child that there is money.

(Don't mind the abbreviations; I use "DAT" for because I couldn't think of anything else to translate the particle "u".)

Also, though I say the language is accusative, it borders the line on ergativity, in that what are normally considered "intransitive verbs" are actually transitive verbs in the passive voice, so the "subject" is technically the patient of a verb with an unspoken agent. Example:

-- So s-goi-s siu.
me IMP.yellow.ACT lizard
I yellow-ify the lizard.
-- Siu s-goi-n so.
lizard IMP.yellow.PASS me
The lizard is yellow-ified by me.
-- Siu n-goi-n so.
lizard PERF.yellow.PASS me
The lizard has been yellow-ified by me.
-- Siu n-goi-n.
lizard PERF.yellow.PASS
The lizard has been yellow-ified. = The lizard is yellow.

A select few verbs (mostly motion verbs such as "move") can have up to seven arguments, although more than four are not at all common.
-- So s-beu-s siu u keDoisk u keYespank.
me IMP.move.ACT lizard DAT germany DAT spain.
I move the lizard from Spain to Germany. [i.e. You're traveling Europe with your lizard]
-- So s-beu-s siu u keDoisk u keYespank u keFalansk u kePolutuk u kePolantk.
me IMP.move.ACT lizard DAT germany DAT spain DAT france DAT portugal DAT poland.
I move the lizard from Spain to Germany by way of France towards (but not reaching) Portugal and away from (but not starting in) Poland. [A rather awkward sentence.]
-- So s-beu-s siu u u u u u kePolantk.
me IMP.move.ACT lizard DAT DAT DAT DAT DAT poland.
I move the lizard away from (but not starting in) Poland. [A natural, if slightly comical-sounding sentence.]


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:23 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:37 am 
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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:13 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:30 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:05 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:14 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:55 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:18 am 
Lebom
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Everything you ever wanted to know about . If anyone would care to explain to me how this should be described in proper linguistic terms I'd be eternally grateful!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:25 am 
Lebom
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The man of science is perceiving and endowed with vision whereas he who is ignorant and neglectful of this development is blind. The investigating mind is attentive, alive; the mind callous and indifferent is deaf and dead. - 'Abdu'l-Bahá


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:37 am 
N'guny
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I would add one more category to this:

O: Object of a transitive sentence; used in an active language when the Agent does not fulfill the active condition(s). (In my own conlangs, when the Agent doesn't fulfill the active conditions, he's marked as a Subject.)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:39 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:50 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:10 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:47 am 
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