Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[Legion]

Various things :

-I will completly redo Thokyunehota (I wonder how the "t" got there), in its present step it's really an ugly noob-lang, not worthy to be considered for daughter-derivation.


-What do we know of Doroh? If nothing, is there any proto-isthmus info avalaible to derive Doroh?


-Is there still room for yet another branch out of Ndak-Ta?

[Zhen Lin]

Perhaps you could make it a mixed Peninsular-Isles language? That could be fun, just for the quasioxymoronic name of the classification!

Speaking of classification... At the moment I'm writing Isle languages but Isles language, because somehow Isles languages sounds odd. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Possible alternative names - Insular languages, Polynesian languages, Dysonesian languages...

[zompist]

The Fáralo were converted by followers of Sútupaj and didn't follow later developments.

But maybe the later developments could influence other groups, or reach Huyfarah much later? It might be interesting if some of the barbarian groups that invade later on followed a different form of Ntû'a, for instance.

Sure, but my intention was that the Fáralo didn't keep up, so they would view later forms of Ntû'a as alien or even heretical.

I found this and that back.

Dayyum. I never did see that... I was never able to compare my reconstruction to the actual Proto-Isles. I will have to see how close I got...

Hmm, I wonder what the word for the world would be. There's wuhawwaq 'earth', but of course that probably means 'soil'.

I was never able to get much from Team One on locations; it's interesting to see that Ran talks about the West Seas, especially since I put them in the east. That naturally implies that "the mainland" he talks about is to the east. Perhaps the big continent Zeluzh is on curves northward, off the map...

[Corumayas]

This may have implications for when the Peninsular-speakers spread across the bay, since they're supposed to have been there before the Thoktunèhotà speakers arrived...

Hm? How so? It could simply be that the Peninsular people never spread to those islands.

As I recall, Legion said that Lotoka was spoken in those islands before his language's speakers arrived; I think that was the beginning of the whole Lotokan-Peninsular discussion.

Very hard.... The problem with reconstructing it is I remember doing quite a lot of semantic change in a number of cases.

I noticed some of the semantic shifts, yeah. Though they make reconstruction difficult, that's very realistic; I hope you still have that in the new version.

-What do we know of Doroh? If nothing, is there any proto-isthmus info avalaible to derive Doroh?

All that's known so far is here, plus the list of possible roots and affixes I'm about to post below.

-Is there still room for yet another branch out of Ndak-Ta?

Maybe in the Upper Eige/Xoron Eiel region; I think Dazi was originally supposed to design a daughter there...

Speaking of classification... At the moment I'm writing Isle languages but Isles language, because somehow Isles languages sounds odd. Does anyone have thoughts about this? Possible alternative names - Insular languages, Polynesian languages, Dysonesian languages...

I'd use "Isles" in all cases... As for other names, Insular sounds pretty good by itself, but almost comical next to Peninsular... I don't know what Dyso- means, is that a variant of Dytico- "Western"?

The Fáralo were converted by followers of Sútupaj and didn't follow later developments.

But maybe the later developments could influence other groups, or reach Huyfarah much later? It might be interesting if some of the barbarian groups that invade later on followed a different form of Ntû'a, for instance.

Sure, but my intention was that the Fáralo didn't keep up, so they would view later forms of Ntû'a as alien or even heretical.

Yeah, of course that makes sense. Maybe the Epuonim even follow such a variant, or started their own sect. It's possible the later beliefs of Siixtaguna would end up being perceived as a separate religion, something like Buddhism vs. Hinduism...?

I was never able to get much from Team One on locations; it's interesting to see that Ran talks about the West Seas, especially since I put them in the east. That naturally implies that "the mainland" he talks about is to the east. Perhaps the big continent Zeluzh is on curves northward, off the map...

Sure. Or maybe it's Western Seas in relation to the large ocean to the east, with the Eastern Seas (where Anatolionesian and eventually Erhadzy are spoken) being at the opposite end of that ocean.

[Corumayas]

I thought this should be a separate post.

I present the next step in the development of a PROTO-ISTHMUS LEXICON, reconstructed from the Faraghin wordlist (plus Radius' work on pronouns).

I haven't attempted any semantic shifting at all, so the meanings of many of the roots and affixes are subject to change. Some of the affixes and derivations you can see here may originate from later than PI, and some of the roots may be spurious (e.g. if the Faraghin word is actually a loan).

Since many Faraghin phonemes come from multiple PI sources that have merged, I've decided to represent the multiple possible reconstructions with variables, represented by capitals (don't mistake them for SAMPA!). This way we can put off deciding the exact form of many words, which should make it slightly easier to retcon in some cognates with Miwan and Ngauro.

The variable definitions are:

A = a, e, o
B = b, bs, sb
F = f, ps, sp
DZ = d_z, ds, sd, d`
GZ = gs, sg
I = i, ij, ji
KS = ks, sk
L = l, d_z, ds, sd, d`
TS = t_s, ts, st
UJ = uj, ja, je, jo, ju
V = a, e, o, u

(I assumed that *d` eventually merged with *d_z in all positions, and that *l is a possible source for Faraghin /r/ in clusters.)

Also, initial vowels were deleted very early, so any vowel might pop up initially; some final vowels were deleted too, which could help explain scary-looking roots like GZUJstk "knife". In general PI seems quite clustery nonetheless.


Affixes:
-A plural suffix
-Ajn causative suffix
-An by far the most common verbal/verbalizing suffix
as- genitive/accusative prefix
-A(t`,tUJ) action nominalizing suffix
d_za- dative prefix
FUJTS- negative prefix
-In another verbal suffix, used in place of -An for a small number of verbs
-nAk outside (case suffix)
-nI place suffix
-sITS "possessor, user" suffix
-t`an "do repeatedly" suffix
-TS "quality" suffix: originally seems to have been a more general nominalizer
-ud past participle suffix
-UJn adjectivizing suffix

Roots:
BAdAu father
BADZ master
BAlAn iron
BAs flat, even
bej what (inanimate interrogative/relative pronoun)
BIn nothing
BLAn face, front
BLAus fate, a goddess
da I (1SG personal pronoun)
dA(DZ,j)Ad-An dance
dAGZ-An stay, camp
dAsUJm hemp
dAu girl, daughter
dIm-In give
dLuDZj-An awaken
dLum-An denounce to the king (?)
dumAGZ glass
DZAnt-An test (by experience), prove, try
DZUJF-An scare
DZut-An own, possess
DZusn-In paint, color
Fe(DZ,j)oGZ Faragh (tribal name)
fe ye (2PL personal pronoun)
FuGZ-An make, craft
gAdUJn (younger) brother
gA(DZ,jV)-TS boat
gud-An descend (from an ancestor)
gut` we (1PL personal pronoun)
GZAF-An steal
GZAnt-A(tUJ,t`) dragon
GZI(tUJ,t`) mighty, powerful
GZUJstk(-An) knife (v. cut)
GZun old(er)
kAt-An amuse
kej who (animate interrogative/relative pronoun)
kILt anger
kItLIm honor
kLILt-An seize, capture
KSA(DZ,jV) good
KSAj(DZ,jV) goat
KSUJTSIl bequeath
KSLIt-TS longsword
lAuTS free
luDZ they (3PL personal pronoun)
lup-An lie, deceive
mAGZA(tUJ,t`) loot, take as booty
mas-TS house
mIn son
mIs it (3SG inanimate personal pronoun)
muDZ blood
mun-TS soft, weak
nAgAt lord, chief
nAGZu bear (the animal)
nAk-TS outdoors
nApAl-An be bored
nIDZ bad, weak
njo he, she (3SG animate personal pronoun)
nUJLGZA war
pAt one
pLAGZ-An get or be used to
pLunj-An stab, slash
pu(DZ,j)At clean, pure
sAn fire
sAj woman
sITS holy
suDZ year
tAt law
tAt`A sister
tIKS sword
tLUJB-An marry
tujn thou (2SG personal pronoun)
tUJnt left hand
tund-An watch over, take care of
t`ALk king
t`Istk-An hide
t`uKS fist
TSAt gold
TSI(DZ,jV) great, mighty
TSIKS name
TSImp-An twist, stunt
TSUJF sea, ocean
TSun two

[Legion]

-Is there still room for yet another branch out of Ndak-Ta?

Maybe in the Upper Eige/Xoron Eiel region; I think Dazi was originally supposed to design a daughter there...

Ah, then so, I put an option on that.

[Radius Solis]

Yep. And I think that's pretty much officially the last available slot, too. Pretty much everywhere else that Ndak Ta may conceivably have spread to that isn't occupied by something else has been covered now:

1. Huyfarah - Faralo
2. Kasca - Naidda
3. Rathedan - Adata
4. Lasomo - Ndok Aiso
5. Across the N. mountains - Qedik
6. Dagaem Islands - Dhaleglo
7. Xoron Eiel - ??
8. There is no 8

So that's it for potentially-major NT branches. There is still room for isolated small daughters spoken by relatively few people in various nooks and corners, and of course dialects of existing daughters, but that's it.

Also, Legion, keep in mind that the Xoron Eiel region is slated to be mostly overrun by Adata speakers in the third through fifth centuries YP. Your language might survive this event in some fringe areas though.

[Zhen Lin]

As I recall, Legion said that Lotoka was spoken in those islands before his language's speakers arrived; I think that was the beginning of the whole Lotokan-Peninsular discussion.

Ah. I think he was referring to Dagæm though. Hmm.

I'd use "Isles" in all cases... As for other names, Insular sounds pretty good by itself, but almost comical next to Peninsular...

Hmm. Yes, it would, I suppose. Especially a hypothetical mixed-language label like Insular-Peninsular.

I don't know what Dyso- means, is that a variant of Dytico- "Western"?

Ah, dytico-, of course. I should find a list of morphemes for constructing neo-Greek and neo-Latin words with.

A meterological question: are typhoons/other tropical cyclones likely in this region? It looks like the islands would break up any coming in from the west, and it seems unlikely that one would come up from the south...

[Corumayas]

As I recall, Legion said that Lotoka was spoken in those islands before his language's speakers arrived; I think that was the beginning of the whole Lotokan-Peninsular discussion.

Ah. I think he was referring to Dagæm though. Hmm.

Huh, you may be right; it looks like I read more into it than he actually said. Those islands do look like the most likely route to the northern Lotoka region (on the mainland) though...

Ah, dytico-, of course. I should find a list of morphemes for constructing neo-Greek and neo-Latin words with.

That would be useful, yes. I only know dytico- because brandrinn used it once in the Zebia thread.

I've found what's almost certainly a Miw/Isthmus cognate: Miwan tun "red" and Faraghin rušnen "paint, color" (probably from Proto-Isthmus *dzusn- or *d`usn-).

[Radius Solis]

A meterological question: are typhoons/other tropical cyclones likely in this region? It looks like the islands would break up any coming in from the west, and it seems unlikely that one would come up from the south...

I could answer this better if I could tell which area you're talking about. I just looked back through the quote-reply chain and I'm still not sure. And no general-terms description I could give would likely be as helpful as this plot of all tropical cyclone tracks on Earth from 1985-2005 (click for full version):



In general in the northern hemisphere a coastline is at risk if it has a lot of open ocean to its southeast. But a lot depends on where the ocean currents go, because that defines where the hottest sea surface temperatures are - which is what tropical cyclone formation depends on.

[zompist]

Neat map. Based on it, I'd guess that Kasca and Huyfarah are too far north to be buffetted by tropical storms, though they'd get the dregs of them (perhaps like the nor'easters in New England).

The Xshali empire should be more affected, though perhaps the Zeluzh continent is too close for that.

[Radius Solis]

Oh, I dunno. Certainly Kasca and Huyfarah need not worry very often, but cyclones do occasionally make their way into the upper temperate zones. Even Halifax, Nova Scotia got pretty torn up a few years ago by Hurricane Juan. New England isn't immune to full-blown hurricanes either (e.g. the Great New England Hurricane of 1938), although it's certainly more common for it to get the dregs, as you say.

[Salmoneus]

But the hurricane would have had to go north, then east, and north, and then to the west to reach them, thanks to the bend of the continent. I would probably be more concerned about polar windstorms in the winter - being on the east, this isn't a major worry, but there might be some that form on the northern sea and come down over the mountains.

[Radius Solis]

But the hurricane would have had to go north, then east, and north, and then to the west to reach them, thanks to the bend of the continent.

Only if it's coming from somewhere else. On rare occasions, they can and will form right there in the sea off Kasca - on Earth, tropical storms are known to form as far north as 45 degrees. None of this is to say that anybody should be worried about such storms - but I think the case is sound for being able to use one as a plot device if desired.

[Zhen Lin]

Wow, Taiwan is almost completely obliterated on that map. So I guess the question is, is the Doroh-Huyfárah-Peninsula bay an "open" ocean, or will the islands disrupt incoming storms?

[Radius Solis]

The islands are too far north to disrupt anything, but the Zeluzh continent will. Tropical storms tend to form between 10 and 30 degrees north, travel west for a time, then bend north and finally northeast - by the time they're well above 30 N, they're already moving northwest to northeast, so the islands aren't in the right position to shelter anything. The odd rogue typhoon may manage to make it between Zeluzh and the islands before turning NW, but that would be a rare event. Meanwhile, Xsali (including the southern peninsula coast) had better watch out!


Speaking of natural disasters, Sal's "more Tolkien than tectonics" description was just about right... With one exception, I can't tell where, if anywhere, there should be earthquakes and volcanoes. The exception is the Eastern Isles, which look like a perfect island-arc subduction zone. The Siixtaguna coast is a possibility, as are the Zeluzh coast and some of the Western coasts. On the other hand, hotspots can occur just about anywhere, land or ocean, so if anyone really wants a volcano somewhere, that can be done.

[Dewrad]

Speaking of natural disasters, Sal's "more Tolkien than tectonics" description was just about right... With one exception, I can't tell where, if anywhere, there should be earthquakes and volcanoes.

On which note, I've been wondering if it's worth re-imagining the map somewhat? We could do with a whole-world map (if nothing else but to give us more room to play with ), and in making one it might be worth seeing if we can retcon in some believable tectonics etc. We could keep the same general outline, but just *tweak* the base map slightly to bring it more in line with realism? Any thoughts/takers?

(Damn, but we're piling up the work here...)

EDIT: it might also be worth moving/modifying the location of the "Western" Isles so they're more in line with the conhistories of the Insular languages, as they seem currently to be pretty off.

[Zhen Lin]

Meanwhile, Xsali (including the southern peninsula coast) had better watch out!

Blah, that is troublesome. I was hoping to develop a major coastal civilisation that would give us cities analogous to... well, I'm not sure really. Are there any currently-inhabited cities founded more than 4000 years ago? (I wonder why those that were founded then were eventually abandoned. Hmm.) I suppose my options are either:
1. to move the cities somewhat further inland, or
2. to have the city ultimately ruined/abandoned after a catastrophic storm.

[Radius Solis]

Build your cities on small coastal hills. That won't protect them from wind, but wind doesn't do much damage to stone anyway, and by far the worst destruction from most cyclones comes from the sudden flooding - both coastal, from the storm surge, and riverine, from the rains. Nobody made much comment about what the wind did to New Orleans...

[Zhen Lin]

Yeah, I was thinking of putting it on flat land (possibly near farmland). But clearly that would be far too prone to flooding during storms.

[Salmoneus]

Cities from four thousand years ago rarely survive, because the political situation changes over time. If an empire falls, people leave its cities. If a city is sacked or burns, people go somewhere else. Particularly the 'cities' from four thousand years ago, which were rarely larger than small towns on a modern scale.

And the population can just overgraze and overuse the local area, so that they have to move on.

Or seaports fade away when the coast moves away from them, or when they fall into the sea. Cities on rivers fade away when the river moves, or dries up, or develops into a swamp. Cities built on trade routes are enourmously vulnerable, since a slight change in trading conditions can cut off their whole purpose for being.

And then of course there are natural disasters.




That said, there ARE some 'cities' that survive from ancient times, mostly in arid areas (presumably because there are fewer viable sites around, so people stick with the existing ones longer).

Wikipedia lists four cities thought to be older than six millenia: Jericho, Damascus, Sidon, Susa, Byblos, and Crocodilopolis. Another nineteen at over four millenia, all of which are Egypt, Anatolia or the Middle East, except for Athens, Varanasi, Xinzheng, Mohenjo-Daro, Harappa, Delhi, and Balkh in Afghanistan.

Of course, this is for 'continually inhabited by at least 250 people', so many of them haven't exactly been great cities all the time. And many of them are 'inhabited' in a progressive sense - the old city is gradually abandoned as people move to one next door. At Harappa, for instance, the modern settlement is some way from the original city.





Incidently, I don't think your cities are likely to be made of stone, or be sited in safe areas. City-builders don't care about long-term survival, only current convenience. Why would they build of stone if they live in a forest? Maybe a few palaces or temples, but certainly not ordinary houses.

[Zhen Lin]

That said, there ARE some 'cities' that survive from ancient times, mostly in arid areas (presumably because there are fewer viable sites around, so people stick with the existing ones longer).

That makes sense.

Of course, this is for 'continually inhabited by at least 250 people', so many of them haven't exactly been great cities all the time. And many of them are 'inhabited' in a progressive sense - the old city is gradually abandoned as people move to one next door. At Harappa, for instance, the modern settlement is some way from the original city.

Hmmm... interesting trick... an idea...

Incidently, I don't think your cities are likely to be made of stone, or be sited in safe areas. City-builders don't care about long-term survival, only current convenience. Why would they build of stone if they live in a forest? Maybe a few palaces or temples, but certainly not ordinary houses.

However, castles are likely to be built in defensible/safe areas, no? Certainly the houses would not be made of stone. (But would they be made of wood or mudbrick instead? I imagine mudbrick would be easier to obtain in the stone age than wood. Or maybe straw? Hmm. I guess it depends on vegetation/climate... I need help there.)

[Radius Solis]

City-builders don't care about long-term survival, only current convenience. Why would they build of stone if they live in a forest? Maybe a few palaces or temples, but certainly not ordinary houses.

Mostly but not entirely. There's room for a thoughtful ruler here or there to try planning for the next few centuries instead of just his own lifetime. Modern Earth is littered with examples of people planning for the long term despite its inconvenience, for example the Netherlands. And it's not unknown from ancient times either - the pyramids were built with the intention of them lasting forever (if only for religious reasons, but religous reasons aren't hard to come by). As well, sometimes a disaster will prompt people to rebuild in ways less prone to a recurrance; e.g. when most of downtown Seattle was destroyed by fire in 1889, the city passed an ordinance that all new construction in the burn zone be of stone and brick.

The houses don't need to be made of stone anyway. I was referring only to the city centers, and stone city centers are pretty common throughout our history up until a century or so ago.

-----

Of course, you can do whatever you prefer, Zhen Lin, but (subject to critiques etc) I propose that the following would be sufficiently plausible, as well as an interesting scenario to explore:

* Generally flat land, but along parts of the coast there are numerous low hills and bumpy ridges, few of them more than a hundred feet high, and with small to moderate rivers draining through gaps in the hills (there are places like this on Earth).

* On the coast side, the seashore often comes right up to the base of the hill line. On the inland side, with the ground nearly back down to sea level, you get a flat zone a few miles wide. These "bottomlands" are often marshy or even estuarine in nature, but a lot of it is dry too.

* During wet periods and severe storms, due to the flatness of the bottomlands and the restriction on river flow imposed by the hills, the bottomlands flood. Sometimes badly. Houses down here get wiped out every few decades, but people don't actually die frequently because there's higher ground nearby. Meanwhile the fertility of the bottomlands is periodically renewed by the silt deposits.

* In two or three or four places, cities are built - repeated flooding over time encourages people to build mostly on the hills even while they farm the adjacent bottomlands. Later, the hilltop settlements evolve into substantial city centers, with most of the people actually living in the bottomlands and on the seashore side of the hills. These people are vulnerable, but again they have refuge close to hand.

* Due to the periodic destruction of the lowlands, residents rarely bother to build with materials more permanent than sun-baked mud bricks, which wash away, but are easily replaced. The city centers, under the pressure of occasional tropical storm winds, are always losing their wooden buildings while retaining their stone buildings, so over the centuries stone comes to dominate.

* On the down side, these cities will never be huge, though they could grow to somewhat moderate sizes. But they will be capable of permanence even through ancient eras.

[Zhen Lin]

What a coincidence, that's more or less what I had in mind! Some additional ideas:

1. Because of the periodic destruction of homes, residents mark the site of their house with an inscription (but not necessarily writing) on a large, heavy stone (preferably one that is embedded in the ground).

2. Granaries and stores are built on the hills, of course.

3. Reverence of the storm à la Nile in Ancient Egypt. (But, it wouldn't be as regular as the flooding of the Nile, would it?)

4. Animist proto-religion.

5. Rice culture?

[Radius Solis]

1. That's a good point around which to build some cultural quirks.

2. yes.

3. No, it would be quite irregular. In many years, no flooding would occur at all. In a few, it'd happen four or five times. This does lend itself to religious reverence, though: when something's unpredictable, you start praying.

4 & 5. I dunno. Ask Sal.