Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[Radius Solis]

NOTA BENE: Most of the really old material that has little present relevence has been split from this thread. The split-off thread is here and I've edited the first post of this thread and the first and last of that thread to indicate this.

In some places the "currently relevent?" question ended up pretty arbitrary. I got rid of a bunch of posts that were sorta in between, but kept others in some places to preserve conversational continuity. And even so we still have a couple pages of posts at the beginning that aren't well-connected to each other, but I had to draw the line somewhere.

Note also that cedh audmanh's family tree post on page seven, which Legion's first post on page one links to, is now split and may be pruned in the future. Since we have the KQ page with the same function I figured we didn't need it anymore. So maybe it would be helpful if Legion edited his first post again to link to the KQ page instead (it's here), and maybe even delete the rest of that post since it's old relay organization stuff that would confuse new people? (I didn't want to presume too far by changing anything Legion wrote, I just added a note to the top.)

I'm going to edit a post of mine, now second in this thread, and which I left for this purpose, to provide a summary and some relevent links for anyone reading it for the first time.

[dunomapuka]

Thanks Radius, being able to read the thing from the beginning without clutter is lovely. A job well done.

Let's get some more activity going on the thread now! As for me, I've taken on the task of reconstructing feasible Ndak Ta --> Ndok Aisô sound changes. The goal of them will be to retain a general Ndok Aisô sound, as per ghur's original vision, though over half the individual words will likely change (but many only slightly). I'm taking special care that the most visible and well-known words -- "Ndok Aisô" itself; "Ngahêxôldod;" "Axôltseubeu" will remain unchanged. This requires a bunch of carefully-calibrated sound changes, and a lot of retconning. For example, ghur intended "Aisô" to be the direct outcome of "Ta," which seems implausible and doesn't match the other changes, thus I'm keeping the word and deciding it's a borrowing. I ask: What are some languages to borrow from?

But arvorec.net is down, and the language page with it. Thus for now I'm only working on the handful of words I've saved. Can this be fixed?

As for Namidu, I'm cementing elements of the lexicon. I suppose there will always be room for more borrowings and revisions. The sound changes are done, save possible minor tweaks. But my ideas for the grammar are somewhat skeletal.

As for a big IRC chat, I downloaded a program called "ircle" a while ago, and I went on #almea like once. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out again.

[Radius Solis]

Oh crud. I forgot that the Ndok Aiso wordlist would go poof when arvorec.net did. Dewrad probably did too, but let's see if he thought to save a copy...

As for arvorec.net itself, he got a new domain and allowed the old one to lapse. And the new site doesn't have all the content from the old one.

[dunomapuka]

I ask: What are some languages to borrow from?

To expand on this, I've got a few ideas for possible substrate languages:

1. A stray Miwan (or Eige-group generally) language of some kind.
2. A stray Isthmus langauge of some kind.
3. A Ndak-oid sister language that isn't exactly Ndak Ta. The existance of this was discussed way back in the thread, related to the Bwimbai Valley being a putative Ndak Urheimat. Salmoneus was going to do a sister language (or a "niece" language?) of NT called Antagg.

It seems the original plan was to conveniently remove the Ndok from history by wiping out their civilization by a Feråjin-type nomadic group, but I think there's no reason we can't continue their existence instead, if we get some form of Ndok Aisô Draft Two in working order. And I am taking the reigns on the phonology; making some Adata/Naidda-esque grammar for it might be a group project.

Their history might turn out to be quite exciting, particularly once they've retaken Ngahêxôldod. After all, it's supposed to be bigger than any of the Daiadak cities -- the Babylon of its world! Maybe they become the third Big Empire in medieval times. Or, maybe they regress into a patchwork of city-states, but somehow expand their influence. Or, they stagnate and don't influence anybody much at all.

Dewrad probably did too, but let's see if he thought to save a copy...

Yeah, I hope we haven't lost that information. On the other hand, part of me wants a greater sense of <i>carte blanche</i>.

[Legion]

First post edited.

[Cedh]

I ask: What are some languages to borrow from?

To expand on this, I've got a few ideas for possible substrate languages:

1. A stray Miwan (or Eige-group generally) language of some kind.
2. A stray Isthmus langauge of some kind.
3. A Ndak-oid sister language that isn't exactly Ndak Ta. The existance of this was discussed way back in the thread, related to the Bwimbai Valley being a putative Ndak Urheimat. Salmoneus was going to do a sister language (or a "niece" language?) of NT called Antagg.

Good substrate candidates would also be Hitatc Wan or a close relative of it, spoken in the lower Milīr valley by semi-nomadic tribes. I'm currently finalizing the sound changes from Proto-Hitatc, so I hope to be able to present a wordlist in one or two weeks' time.

Dewrad probably did too, but let's see if he thought to save a copy...

Yeah, I hope we haven't lost that information. On the other hand, part of me wants a greater sense of <i>carte blanche</i>.

I have a backup of the original Ndok Aisô file, and I've just uploaded it here.

[Cedh]

Here's some historical stuff I've written down about the Hitatc languages:

The Hitatc languages were widely spoken in the regions south of the Eigə river in preclassical times; most notably by the Wan and Mlir tribes, nomadic inhabitants of the Milīr steppe regions who turned out to be the only "primitive" peoples capable of resisting an invasion by the legendary Ndak emperor Tsinakan. This affair was ashamedly left out of most official Ndak chronicles, but apocryphic records provide glimpses to the earliest attested bits of Hitatc culture and language.

At the time of Tsinakan (around -1900 YP), Hitatc peoples populated almost all the land between the Rathedān highlands to the west and the Ici forest to the east. They had a nomadic lifestyle, and were divided into many small tribes with separate but similar identities and traditions. Descendants of the closely related (and possibly intercomprehensible) Wan and Mlir languages continued to be the main tongues in the region until the third century after the death of the prophet Zārakātias, and the Hitatc nomads firmly held on to their lands. It was only in the Itatizan War in 229-231 YP that the emergent Empire of Athalē conquered the lower and middle Milīr valley. In the meantime, the Wan-Mlir dialects had diversified into about half a dozen languages, the most important one being Ktacwa (Adāta: Itatizan). At least three of these received detailed attention of Dāiadak scholars. As most of the Wan-Mlir languages were never written, almost all that is known about them derives from these studies. After the conquest by Athalē, the Wan-Mlir languages became extinct within a few centuries, leaving traces only as a substrate in the southeastern varieties of Adāta and descendants thereof (e.g. Aθáta and Pencek).

Only two minor Hitatc languages were known to have survived into the second millennium YP. Both of them were spoken in remote mountain areas on the upper Milīr, and both had many features in common with the languages from downriver areas. However, it is general consensus among linguists that the Uplands Hitatc languages diverged from their more prominent Wan and Mlir relatives a few centuries before Tsinakan.

To the surprise of many scholars, early attempts at reconstructing the common ancestor of the family resulted in a lexical stock that pointed to an origin in a lush, forested area rather than to the semi-dry Milīr region. While some linguists fiercely rejected this conclusion, others began to look for possible relatives, variously proposing connections to Miwan, Peninsular or even Xšali. None of these suggestions withstood a closer examination, but two small isolate languages could convincingly be linked to the Hitatc family: Necine, spoken in the southern Ici forest around +1000 YP, and Pirikõsu, spoken in the Şepamã valley near the east coast of the continent six centuries later.

Known members of the Hitatc language family include:

• Proto-Hitatc (c. -3000 YP)
  • Eastern Hitatc
    • Common Eastern Hitatc (c. -1800 YP)
      • Forest Hitatc
        • Necine (c. +800 YP)
      • Coastal Hitatc (c. +200 YP)
        • Pirikõsu (c. +1600 YP)
  • Western Hitatc
    • Common Western Hitatc (c. -2600 YP)
      • Proto-Wan-Mlir (c. -2300 YP)
        • Hitatc Wan (c. -1900 YP)
          • Ktacwa (c. +200 YP)
        • Hitatc Mlir (c. -1900 YP)
      • Uplands Hitatc
        • (...)
          • Eteucu (c. +1600 YP)

The grammar for Proto-Hitatc (PHi) is reasonably complete except for the actual form of affixes, but not much of it is typed up yet. The sound changes for Necine and Pirikõsu are finished; I'm still working on those for the western branch.

Here are some cognate sets for the eastern branch:

IPA:

PHi: [ suˈnilo niˈzazi ɬiˈsuɡo zaˈɬeːlo ˈŋade ˈtemoɬo ]
Necine: [ ˈʒɲilə ˈɲaʒi ˈfujə ˈʐɛlə ˈŋɡazə ˈsɛmvə ]
Pirikõsu: [ ʃɨˈnilɨ niˈraje seˈʃɨ raˈsalɨ ˈnarɨ ˈtãsɨ ]

PHi: [ duzaˈloqi ˈkikotaɬi ˈsaɡaqi niˈzan̻i ziˈsun̻a ɡaˈŋ̊uːli ]
Necine: [ toːˈlɔkə ˈciktəsi ˈsaːkə ˈɲaɲi ˈʃunə kŋuj ]
Pirikõsu: [ tɨraˈluʔɨ ˈʃeʔɨtɨse ˈsaʔɨ niˈrãʃe ʃeˈʃẽhɨ kaˈnije ]

PHi: [ ˈdaqose qaˈziːba buˈʔuŋ̊e ˈŋaɢu nuˈbaɴ̻a ɬaˈŋoːɬa ]
Necine: [ ˈtakʃə ˈkʃivə ˈpuːɲə ˈŋɡaju ˈmbaŋɡə ˈznɔfə ]
Pirikõsu: [ ˈtaʔeʃɨ kaˈʃiwo pɨˈhẽʃɨ no nɨˈpãhɨ saˈnusɨ ]

X-SAMPA:

PHi: [ su"nilo ni"zazi Ki"sugo za"Ke:lo "Nade "temoKo ]
Necine: [ "ZJil@ "JaZi "fuj@ "z`El@ "Ngaz@ "sEmv@ ]
Pirikõsu: [ Si\"nili\ ni"raje se"Si\ ra"sali\ "nari\ "ta~si\ ]

PHi: [ duza"loqi "kikotaKi "sagaqi ni"zan_0i zi"sun_0a ga"N_0u:li ]
Necine: [ to:"lOk@ "cikt@si "sa:k@ "JaJi "Sun@ kNuj ]
Pirikõsu: [ ti\ra"lu?i\ "Se?i\ti\se "sa?i\ ni"ra~Se Se"Se~hi\ ka"nije ]

PHi: [ "daqose qa"zi:ba bu"?uN_0e "NaG\u nu"baN\_0a Ka"No:Ka ]
Necine: [ "takS@ "kSiv@ "pu:J@ "Ngaju "mbaNg@ "znOf@ ]
Pirikõsu: [ "ta?eSi\ ka"Siwo pi\"he~Si\ no ni\"pa~hi\ sa"nusi\ ]

[Zhen Lin]

Huh, Necine and Pirikõsu look different enough to plausibly be missed over when looking for a genetic relationship...

[Corumayas]

To expand on this, I've got a few ideas for possible substrate languages:

1. A stray Miwan (or Eige-group generally) language of some kind.
2. A stray Isthmus langauge of some kind.
3. A Ndak-oid sister language that isn't exactly Ndak Ta. The existance of this was discussed way back in the thread, related to the Bwimbai Valley being a putative Ndak Urheimat. Salmoneus was going to do a sister language (or a "niece" language?) of NT called Antagg.

The Meshi, who speak a Miwan language, are nearby; according to a scenario Salmoneus posted a while ago, both they and Salmoneus' people have short-lived empires during the interim between Ndak Ta and Ndok Aiso. Meshi may be significantly different from the eastern Miwan langs, as it's at the opposite end of the dialect continuum... nothing is really known about it yet.

I need to get more done on the Eige-Isthmus family. Harrass me about it if you want to do something with Miwan/Meshi.

[dunomapuka]

To expand on this, I've got a few ideas for possible substrate languages:

1. A stray Miwan (or Eige-group generally) language of some kind.
2. A stray Isthmus langauge of some kind.
3. A Ndak-oid sister language that isn't exactly Ndak Ta. The existance of this was discussed way back in the thread, related to the Bwimbai Valley being a putative Ndak Urheimat. Salmoneus was going to do a sister language (or a "niece" language?) of NT called Antagg.

The Meshi, who speak a Miwan language, are nearby; according to a scenario Salmoneus posted a while ago, both they and Salmoneus' people have short-lived empires during the interim between Ndak Ta and Ndok Aiso. Meshi may be significantly different from the eastern Miwan langs, as it's at the opposite end of the dialect continuum... nothing is really known about it yet.

I need to get more done on the Eige-Isthmus family. Harrass me about it if you want to do something with Miwan/Meshi.

I'll be patient All of these are good places to borrow from. ghur's document specifies that the Ndok are linguistic purists and don't like to borrow words from other languages, and regulate those that do. But I'm scrapping this because it seems like an implausibly modern nationalist concept. Borrowings are fun!

Let me know of any ideas you have for Meshi. To start you thinking, I need a source for Aisô itself. I suppose it should mean "language."

Ndok Aisô, I have decided, likes to use honorific prefixes on a lot of words, especially words referring to themselves, their kings and cities; these are seen in Oigop'oibauxeu, Ngahêxôldod, Axôltseubeu. So it's possible the ai- is one of thse prefixes and the root is just sô.

The circumflexed vowels are laxed: <ô> is /8/; <ê> is a lax /E/; <î> is a lax /I/. They may be borrowed from short vowels in Meshi or some other source.

I also need a source for the -bauxeu that shows up in Oigop'oibauxeu and some king names. I don't know what it means, but it should be something macho.

[Radius Solis]

Ahhh, thank you cedh for having the foresight to back up that page! *relief*

#12: I think the constraints on the problem (i.e. low-ish level of carte blanche) are a big reason nobody else has taken up the challenge yet. So you're welcome to it... I look forward to a sounder, better-described Ndok Aiso. What are you planning to do with the orthography? A more phonemic representation would be nice, but on the other hand, the quirks probably give it some of its flavor.



Also: second post in this thread is now edited. Anyone see ways I could improve it?

[dunomapuka]

#12: I think the constraints on the problem (i.e. low-ish level of carte blanche) are a big reason nobody else has taken up the challenge yet. So you're welcome to it... I look forward to a sounder, better-described Ndok Aiso. What are you planning to do with the orthography? A more phonemic representation would be nice, but on the other hand, the quirks probably give it some of its flavor.

I was not envisioning any changes to the orthography, really. What seems weird to you? As I've said, I decided the circumflexed vowels are lax. p' t' k' s' are ejectives. <x> and morpheme-final <t> and <d> represent the glottal stop. <eu> and <oi> are, in fact, diphthongs. I guess I'd like the language to look the same; I'm trying to extrapolate the phonology based on that.

Also: second post in this thread is now edited. Anyone see ways I could improve it?

You can derive a daughter language from any Akana language you wish

It's possible we may decide some language shouldn't really have a daughter language: there are too many already, or there's no room for one geographically. You should say, run it by us first. (we should veto, for example, if ten more people want to do Adata-descendants.)

[Corumayas]

I also need a source for the -bauxeu that shows up in Oigop'oibauxeu and some king names. I don't know what it means, but it should be something macho.

In the king names I made up, at least, it's this (from cedh's backup):

ibauxeu name, symbol, sign, letter, v call

Not particularly macho, I'm afraid. I used it as if it were a taboo-avoiding way to refer to the name of a deity: Taizeuibauxeu was meant to be "shield of Name", and Gexoitsoibauxeu ~ "Name gives".


About Meshi, I can say a little-- the Miwan languages are all pretty closely related. It probably has a basic vowel inventory of /i e a u/, with length, tone, and/or phonation distinctions. The consonants I'm less sure about... it looks like there's some palatalization before /i/ (at least). I imagine it would be heavily influenced by Ndak Ta, and maybe also Antagg.

[Zhen Lin]

Incidentally when I was pondering the tentative Greek-like Peninsular language, I came across the problem of how to write the vowels: /i e E æ A V O 7 o u/. I decided on i a o e u for /i A V 7 u/ (partly because the unrounded back vowels are more common/basic) and ei oi ai au/ou eu for /e E æ O o/. I wonder how the feel of Ndok Aisô would change if we use these values to interpret the transcription?

[Radius Solis]

Also: second post in this thread is now edited. Anyone see ways I could improve it?

You can derive a daughter language from any Akana language you wish

It's possible we may decide some language shouldn't really have a daughter language: there are too many already, or there's no room for one geographically. You should say, run it by us first. (we should veto, for example, if ten more people want to do Adata-descendants.)

Good call. I went one better and listed the langauges that we've already previously decided probably don't need any more daughters than the ones already completed or proposed (to wit, NT, Adata, and Kozado).

[dunomapuka]

Incidentally when I was pondering the tentative Greek-like Peninsular language, I came across the problem of how to write the vowels: /i e E æ A V O 7 o u/. I decided on i a o e u for /i A V 7 u/ (partly because the unrounded back vowels are more common/basic) and ei oi ai au/ou eu for /e E æ O o/. I wonder how the feel of Ndok Aisô would change if we use these values to interpret the transcription?

In which case, Ngahêxôldod = [NAh7?VldV?] (not sure what the circumflexes would be in the scheme), Axôltseubeu = [A?Vltsobo], Oigop'oibauxeu = [EgVp_<EbO?o]. Rather more reasonable, in some ways. But on a purely artistic level, I prefer the excessive over-flowering of diphthongs, as strange as they are...

Not particularly macho, I'm afraid. I used it as if it were a taboo-avoiding way to refer to the name of a deity: Taizeuibauxeu was meant to be "shield of Name", and Gexoitsoibauxeu ~ "Name gives".

Cool. Unfortunately I can't keep both the same names for the kings and the same meanings, at least not always. Gexoitsoibauxeu sounds extremely badass, but the -bauxeu of Oigop'oibauxeu now means "narrows" (of a river). It comes from NT mauro.

Roit-neheu is interesting, though it seems rather redundant to name the king "Man-god" when all of the kings are deified upon death.

I'll play around with the idea of poetic epithets for gods whose names are taboo. ghur specifies four main Ndok gods: the mother goddess Ombási, deifications of the sun and moon, and a deified Tsinakan. I have the feeling that Ombási is in charge. Maybe she is "Name."

The Tsinakan text would actually be of enormous religious significance to the Ndok; practically their Lord's Prayer. Particularly the section "O my mistress, light of the stars ... Strike the heathen down!"

[Radius Solis]

Within a couple days I will be ready to post the final, comprehensive, and authoritative Dictionary of Delta Naidda. It's coming along very nicely. I'm not certain what the final size will be, but I currently have about one thousand words, after borrowings but before compounds and grammatical words. So it may end up a good twelve hundred.

Given that this dialect is spoken in an area that has frequently been under the sway of Huyfarah over the last few centuries, there is a correspondingly higher proportion of Faralo loans. 141 of them, to be exact.

[zompist]

Excellent, a good excuse for delaying work on my Naidda derivative till then.

(Actually most of my effort is on Xurnese right now. But the people of the Stinking Mud have not been forgotten.)

[Radius Solis]

Managing all the Faralo loans is proving to be interesting. For the sake of fun and realism, I'm dividing the words into two groups,: whether the word was borrowed directly or with another dialect of Naidda as an intermediary. I'm having the coastal dialects borrow different sounds a little differently - the biggest instance is that they map Faralo /h f/ to /f/, while the Delta dialect borrows /f/ as /p/ (initially) and /v/ (medially), and /h/ as zero. There are some minor vowel differences too. So for the Faralo /hislu/, it is borrowed directly as /islu/, but for the indirect path, F. /higade/ coastal Naidda /figade/ Delta /pigade/.

What's giving me a headache is that I'd like to combine this with an age distinction as well: some loans will be recent and others old, and for the old ones I'd like to dis-apply some of Faralo's most recent sound changes and then apply Naidda's most recent. Example: I'd like to double-borrow Faralo æsec@, "kind, type, sort", once long ago with the modern Naidda definition "element, substance", and again recently, with the meaning "species (of animal)". (Precendent: English borrowed chief from French, and then again centuries later when the meaning and pronunciation had changed in both languages, borrowed the same word all over again as chef.) Thus:

a'edda [Old Faralo æsetrə] - element, substance
èsèja [Faralo æsečə] - species (of animal)

Wish me luck. Or, I may decide not to be this meticulous with everything - but for tonight at least, I'm having fun trying!

[dunomapuka]

Managing all the Faralo loans is proving to be interesting. For the sake of fun and realism, I'm dividing the words into two groups,: whether the word was borrowed directly or with another dialect of Naidda as an intermediary. I'm having the coastal dialects borrow different sounds a little differently - the biggest instance is that they map Faralo /h f/ to /f/, while the Delta dialect borrows /f/ as /p/ (initially) and /v/ (medially), and /h/ as zero. There are some minor vowel differences too. So for the Faralo /hislu/, it is borrowed directly as /islu/, but for the indirect path, F. /higade/ coastal Naidda /figade/ Delta /pigade/.

What's giving me a headache is that I'd like to combine this with an age distinction as well: some loans will be recent and others old, and for the old ones I'd like to dis-apply some of Faralo's most recent sound changes and then apply Naidda's most recent. Example: I'd like to double-borrow Faralo æsec@, "kind, type, sort", once long ago with the modern Naidda definition "element, substance", and again recently, with the meaning "species (of animal)". (Precendent: English borrowed chief from French, and then again centuries later when the meaning and pronunciation had changed in both languages, borrowed the same word all over again as chef.) Thus:

a'edda [Old Faralo æsetrə] - element, substance
èsèja [Faralo æsečə] - species (of animal)

Wish me luck. Or, I may decide not to be this meticulous with everything - but for tonight at least, I'm having fun trying!

Wow. I'm trying to do the same thing but the borrowing direction is, of course reversed. Namɨdu has a whole lot of loans from Naidda - but which Naidda? In many cases it borrowed from the adjacent coastal dialect, but sometimes from the Delta dialect, and there are even a few words from the Upriver dialect. These were also borrowed at all different times over the course of a millennium. Furthermore, there is an offshoot of the coastal dialect that was spoken in (earlier) Miədu itself, whose speakers sort of took on their own identity as an ethnic group and dispersed throughout the empire -- they furnished a bunch of loans as well, though their language was heavily Fáralo-ized.

(Incidentally, the early Fáralo called this kind of Naidda, as well as other dialects of Naidda, as well as Ndak Ta itself, all by the name of edástə, and their speakers the edák, but I figure they later invented usages to distinguish between them.)

I also imagine there will be a fair number of "boomerang" borrowings where Namɨdu borrows a word from Naidda that has been borrowed from Fáralo.

A question: does the dialect map on the Naidda page still hold, or is it now out of date?

[Radius Solis]

Ah, and I've got boomerang borrowings too... Naidda wåshlo "hole in the ground" Faralo wošlo "dump, hick town" Naidda oshlo "town".

The trouble here is that we're all used to treating conlangs as single entities - maybe with some loanwords - but realistically there would have continually been stuff getting borrowed back and forth between these two regions (southern Huyfarah and northern Kasca) ever since Ndak times. The two speech varieties would probably be just as close to each other as each is to its own standard language spoken to the north and south respectively. Fully imitating this in conlanging is just too damn difficult to be worth the time, but we can kinda-sorta approximate it a little bit with time-sensitive loaning. You and zompist are going to have to consult each other about it.


Also, yes, the dialect map is valid. The accompanying sociolinguistic comments are valid too, but you should probably disregard the phonetic and grammatical comments.

[Salmoneus]

I've pretty much been ignoring this and working on my own stuff.

The "Andagg" line has three nodes:

First off, there are the Andagg - these are inhabitants of the Bwimbai in the later years of the Ndak empire. They solidify in response to Ndak intrusions, and flourish as the Ndak decay, but then, when the Ndak empire has gone, their 'empire' falls too.

Second, there are the Mohudza - these are the descendents of the Andagg, and they rise to prominence during the Dark Ages.

Third, there are a group who appear to be called the Móyay. These are the (dominant) inhabitants of the mountains at the origin of the Bwimbai at the time of Adata and Faralo. They're Mohudza who colonised the mountains and were then cut off when the lowland empire fell. They're facing a resource crisis, and sometime in the first millenium (possibly about 400YP or 800YP? Or both?) there's going to be a collapse, possibly triggered by climate, that forces them out of the mountains as ravaging barbarians in all directions.




Here's a suggestion for a Dark Ages history (minus actual, you know, dates):

1. Andagg become briefly prominent after fall of Ndak, although they don't actually control much territory. But they quickly fall apart (they were only unified by the Ndak threat).
2. Dark ages, lots of war and chaos
3. The Mohudza rise up. They establish a reasonable Empire, stretching into the mountains to the north, and down into Latsomo (ignore forgetful spelling). Other peoples on the Aiwa river not conquered, but probably pay homage. Doesn't rule out the possibility of other powers in the valley at this time, though.
4. Meshi nomads establish a huge Empire, spanning most of the Valley, but in most places assimilate into local culture
5. Post-Mohudza peoples set up successor Empire, but mostly in the western part of the valley (like Tamerlane after the Mongols). This, too, fades away and fractures, in time for the state of the Golden Age to exert influence over the newly-leaderless valley people.


Why are there Meshi nomads at all? Well, my notion is that there's another semi-nomad pastoralist/low-level agricultural people further west up the valley - either a new language family, or else, and more probably, related to the PHi speakers (they could also be nieces or daughter of Ndak). They're out of the loop in the Dark Ages, and they expand peaceably as their agricultural techniques improve. This expansion takes them into Meshi territory as the Mohudza are expanding from the east. The result is that many Meshi tribes become nomadic, and these nomads form together into a horde that overcomes the agriculturalists, possibly with the aid of military innovations.




There are three successor groups to the Mohudza. One is the settled Mohudza, who remain on the Bwimbai. They have an ethnic identity but no centralisation. Some will be vassals of the Rathedan, some of Hufarah, some indepedent, as the powers wax and wane. The second is the nomadic Mohudza. These are Mohudza who were incorporated into the nomadic Meshi and set up a successor state. They probably wander around in the western valley along side Meshi and Whoeveritisinthewest-i groups, in an ethnically complicated and politically fragmented semi-nomadic splodge, that's easy for Athale to conquer, but that is liable to rise up in rebellion ever few years when the tribal conjunctions align in the wrong way. The third group is the Moyay.



-----------


A second speculation, based on what I was saying with Kode the other day:

I don't know what the new map is going to be like. However, we could say that Proto-Western wasn't spoken in the 'Western' mediterranean area, but rather in the sparser area to the south-east, next to the mountains. When they expanded, they expanded into the West like the PIE. At the same time, some crossed the mountains to the east and settled in the Tjakori valley. Then, as Xsali was expanding, it forced other peoples up the valley, who in turn forced the Gezoro out of the valley and into the Rathedan. [The invaders could be assimilated, or the Gezoro could re-invade, if you want the valley to still have Western speakers later on].

This system would explain the curious double-mountain-crossing of the Gezoro, and could tie in nicely to the Xsali area.




-----------


While I'm at it, here's what I posted elsewhere:


North-east of the West, there's a very large hill area where the mountains join - on my climate map, this was grasslands. I was thinking that an expanding culture in the forest on the north coast (expanding to cover most of that coast at an early time - 'Proto-Northern') could expand onto these hills and take over. This hilly steppe area would then be a cultural sprachbund of nomads and semi-nomads for some time. Most likely, many nomadic tribes from this steppe would descend down into the Western sphere, although most wouldn't stay, and most wouldn't actually get to the sea (which I interpret to be the 'centre' of the culture). Perhaps a few nations may remain, like the Magyar in Europe, but most would ride back or be assimilated. Nonetheless, the threefold distinction of 'safe' coastal nations, large but periodically invaded 'semi-nomad' inland nations, and cyclical influxes of nomads might play a role in the cultural history.

Secondly, I was thinking of a littoral culture on the north-west and on that island - too small and distant to greatly impact on the West, but a possible trading destination? Between them and the West would, if we take a European model, be the place for warlike but trading tribes on Germanic or Celtic lines.

To the south, there's probably not much, as the climate deteriorates - barbarians? Large but depopulated slave empires? We don't know what's to the south, so there may be a trade route there. In an case, I think this probably forms a mountain-spanning arid "southern" area - oasis and delta and short-lived aquifer kingdoms, and many nomads.

To the east is, obviously, the Eige valley, but since there's not been much contact those mountains are probably very high. Possibly there may be some inaccessible but wealthy 'silk road' kingdom up in their passes - which I suggest only come into existence later on in history.




--------------------




All of the above are only suggestions, feel free to pick and choose. The new map might be significant too.




As for what I'm doing - I intend to to Moyay, but don't hold your breath. I don't intend to do Andagg. I might do Mohudza if it's warrented (ie we become more interested in the Dark Ages, or their successors become relevent later on). One option there might be to present Moyay, give a brief idea of Mohudza, and leave an interested party to fill in the gaps.

However, while I'm not willing to write up Andagg properly, if anybody does want a few loanwords from it I'm willing to help out. Likewise with Mohudza. And Moyay, though that's only going to become relevent later on - they're a pretty insular people.

[Dewrad]

However, we could say that Proto-Western wasn't spoken in the 'Western' mediterranean area, but rather in the sparser area to the south-east, next to the mountains. When they expanded, they expanded into the West like the PIE.

If I'm reading you right, I have to say that that is where they are (were?) already. Their current Urheimat is shown as the yellow-outlined area on the map below:



Is that where you meant?

[Salmoneus]

Yup! I didn't think I was changing the Urheimat exactly - I just wasn't aware their Urheimat had been fixed at all. Well, great minds and all that.

[Radius Solis]

ATTN: Corumayas and cedh audmanh

The loanwords I have used from Miw and from Necine and Hitatc are as follows.


Old Necine

kidugo [Nc. kituku "captive"] hostage
migasa [Nc. miːkəsə "shoe"] southern-style sandals (now popular in Kasca)
panada [Nc. kpanətə (a fungus type)] purple; a fungus; the purple dye made from the fungus
ñijoda [Nc. ɲi"ʧøʈə] sweet potato
toga [Nc. toːkə "dark"] a dark-skinned person
piña [Nc. mpiːŋə] chicken
snaso [Nc. snasu] eagle
spiya [Nc. psijə] milk (dairy)

Coastal Hitatc

uneye [Ht. "hũheje "cough"] flu, respiratory illness
na'ashi [Ht. na"hãːçi "sea-flow"] tide
shashkï [Ht. ʃa"ːʃĩkɨ] raspberry


Miw (sourcewords in SAMPA)

neshodën [M. ne:sjuten "many legs"] centipede
ti'aga [M. ti'ak "spiderweb"] web, net
kwashor [M. kwaXjur "measles"] skin rash
kalëste [M. kaleste: "alive"] active, energetic
zayo [M. za:ju "die-er"] dead, broken, kaput
yaddiga [M. ja:rik] twine, string
pyagi [M. fja:ki] copulate
twïasa [M. twiXas "not hot"] good weather
yësco [M. jeskju "whistle-er"] songbird
skëvli [M. iskefli "lice"] lice, vermin
stonza [M. ezdunda "splinter"] needle
byuska [M. bju:zga] a legendary creature that eats people
jezova [M. dje:zuf] amber
mejo [M. me:gju "noise maker"] unidentifiable or frightening noise
castën [M. traften "much fire"] bonfire
swëvlo [M. su:Xeflu "bladder"] sack, bag
gwa'idi [M. gwa:'iti "not important"] trivial; minutiae
savreadi [M. sa:vre:Xati "not speaking to each other"] grudge, vendetta
cëddizmë [M. tjerizme "pine pitch"] resin, tar
lespoddo [M. le:psuru "black water"] ink
myu [M. miw "Miw"] stupid
measa [M. Nwe:Xas "not give birth"] stillbirth, miscarriage
tesëño [M. te:senju "beehive"] candle (typically of beeswax)
twaskoddo [M. twa:ksuru "fall-down-water"] waterfall
resti [M. re:sti "everyone speaking"] vote; voting
toasa [M. tuXas "no number"] vast, myriad; multitude
kwamëdi [M. qwa:meti "leaf-boiling"] tea
kwesan [M. qwe:san "leaf dream"] drug trip (especially atropine)
jeorvi [M. dre:Xurfi: "flow-together speech"] chorus; harmony
yasëi [M. ja:seXi] treaty, compact, accord
dwesoadi [M. dwe:suXati "not participating"] misfit
buryo [M. bu:rju "shine-er"] dragonfly