Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[zompist]

I like both redraws, but I think I like #3 the best.

That big fat eastern continent would require a lot of interesting conworlding, starting with figuring out if that's where Proto-Isles came from, and what its relatives and descendants are...

[Radius Solis]

I think I like #3 the best too. I would like to make some additional suggestions:

- Some of the locations of volcanoes seem a little odd. Mid-continent mountain ranges like those surrounding the Aiwa valley are almost never very volcanic. As well, aside from the occasional random hotspot, volcanoes almost always occur along quite narrow belts (and you do have some of those), rarely in diffuse clouds like you've got in several places - notably the SW oceans, but also the elongated far-eastern islands and the southern part of the main continent.

- The Ttiruku Islands have a very distinct curvature that strongly suggests a converging subduction zone along their southern edge. Subduction-created island arcs usually have the trench along their outwardly-curved side, and so the southern coasts of these islands should form a smoother line without jaggy peninsulas sticking out; I addressed this in previous the map I posted. This also means that the plate Siixtaguna is on is moving southwards, and the Zeluzian plate roughly north or northeastwards. And that the islands are probably highly volcanic.

- What do you and the group think about keeping the big western mountains the shape and size I drew them in my proposal? I put some thought and time into working out a likely result of a continental collision there (the western subcontinent running into the rest of the main one) and I think the results are good, if others agree.

[Cedh]

I agree with all that Radius just said. And I have two further suggestions, based on map #3:

* What about extending the southern part of Eigeland further west as well? Suppose the NW plate is not moving due east exactly, but slightly south as well. The coastal mountain range on the southern half of the continent would then, at its current westernmost point, bend west instead of south, and some land could be added to the south of this. (If we do this, maybe it would be beneficial to move the western twin continents a bit further west too)

* This map gives us ample opportunity to place Lesan wherever we want. It's "a large desert island" that is first colonized by an Anatolionesian empire in a time period that roughly corresponds to *our* 17th to 19th century. The twin continents are probably a bit too big and too tropical to be identified with Lesan, so I'd suggest to add an island like that which you had as Kiwia on map #1, but turned to be horizontal, to the northwest or southwest of the twins at a typical desert latitude around 25° (sufficiently isolated to be discovered separately).

EDIT:
I've just realised that there is not that much space for Lesan. So maybe we should move the twin continents south so their northern tip touches the equator, move the southern archipelagos a bit east, and place Lesan in the middle of the large northwestern ocean.

[Salmoneus]

Personally, what I would do is:

: take #3;
: cut zeluzia in half along that gulf or so and move the southern half south and east, into the other hemisphere
: change the western-hemisphere islands to be less ugly and bigger
: possibly join this whole south-western nexus to the south of eigeland by archipelagoes or lesser continents
: add in some microcontinents in the north-western space created

Why I would do this:

: I agree that having identifiable europes, asias and africas all clustered together is a bit boring. In particular, I pity this world's africa, which looks like being dealt with in much the same way as our own by the two continents to its north.

: I like the idea of a more multi-polar world. As it is, we'll have 'Europe' and 'China' clashing at some point in the future, but if we allow a south-western nexus we could also have a 'Zuludom' or 'Atzlan' that could develop to a high extent before encountering european conquistadors.

: Personally, I would prefer it if the Eige cultures WEREN'T the 'main' (i.e. world-conquering) cultures. I'd like it if they were actually dominated by some other cultures when they met. Of course, that wouldn't preclude them being significant later on, just as China is returning to its old status now.





There would be a casualty in all this, of course: Erhadzy's history and geography. I would recommend scrapping it for now, developing history toward that point, and then trying to incorporate elements into a depiction that seemed reasonable. This wouldn't be too polite to Zhen, but he does have other cultures and languages in this world that we aren't interfering in; and I feel distinctly uneasy about having to shape the whole of the world's history and geography toward the description accompanying a single language.

[Zhen Lin]

It's about 2500 years after what is currently established and half a world away. But actually I wouldn't mind too much if we remove it from the universe altogether, since some things would require what would essentially amount to plot holes. However, I would request to still have the relevant technological developments occur at approximately those times (or earlier). Steampunk doesn't really appeal to me, somehow.

[Radius Solis]

and I feel distinctly uneasy about having to shape the whole of the world's history and geography toward the description accompanying a single language.

Except that this has been our modus operandi all along; we have consistently shaped the world and its history around setting descriptions that first appeared in conlang grammars. And personally, I like the Erhadzy setting description... it gives us a future setting to aim for.

Also: we've already got a multi-polar world, much more so than Earth. I can't tell what your "Europe" and "China" are supposed to be on the map, but we've got four major cultural spheres just on Eigeland, which will all be vying for sociopolitical dominance during the modernization era. And that's before counting the ones on other continents!

That said, I'm not opposed to any of your proposed changes to the map.

[Legion]

Also: we've already got a multi-polar world, much more so than Earth. I can't tell what your "Europe" and "China" are supposed to be on the map, but we've got four major cultural spheres just on Eigeland, which will all be vying for sociopolitical dominance during the modernization era. And that's before counting the ones on other continents!

Not really : it's not that different from pre WW europe after all...

[A pocketful of songs.]

The third image from the last post has been revised with Radius' improvements -- and Radius, yes, I like your design for the western mountains, but for mostly pragmatic reasons I'm not so sure about altering the Aiwa valley and the courses of the Aiwa and tributaries. Could we see a detail map of the valley showing what you're proposing there?

Here's two others based on that new one: one with some of cedh's ideas and another with some of Sal's.

On a different topic, here's a map of the high Aiwa c. 1200 (original topo.), based on how Salmoneus has been describing that place then. I'm interested in deriving Habeo languages from proto-Western, possibly from a Western first wave across the mountains and through the Rathedan prior to the Gezoro. Also, there's a High Adatan group, listed separately from the Daiadak due to maybe a little Habeoization, put in there in case anyone wants to derive another Adatan language/culture or possibly maybe several very small ones (I seem to recall at least one person asking about that). Alsoalso, some Daiadak cities are added and named.

[Cedh]

I vote for Sal-Akana, but with the southern part of Eigeland shaped as in Cedh-Akana.

[Dewrad]

I vote for Sal-Akana, but with the southern part of Eigeland shaped as in Cedh-Akana.

Seconded, but with the southern part of Eigeland extended a square or so further westwards (just so it looks less like Wonky India).

[Salmoneus]

I would third, except that for some reason I find the south-west group a little ugly.

: Maybe the south-eastern of the three continents ther could be spun clockwise a little and move south so that the rift looked a little less recent? [eg Africa and South America no longer align, even though the outlines clearly match)

: Maybe have something there pointing up? I have a general idea that this world is all things drooping down, maybe have that island chain go up instead?

: Maybe have mountains on the eastern side of South Zeluzia, matching those on the west side of Somewhereelseica One and the archipelago?


I realise these three suggestions may not all be compatible.


Ooh! also:

: how about southernising those south-western continents to be more completely southern? it might be nice to have at least one pole be land, as well, especially if we're having an earth-like climate. How about tilting the south-eastern edge of South Zelusia to float over the pole? [Or a continent with a north-pointing archipelago emerging out of an icecap, that could be cool too].




---------------------

Re: Habeo.
I'm not sure it's feasible for them to be Westerners, given the timelines. However, we'll need to look at the timeline, and indeed topography, in more depth before coming to a conclusion. I've no strong opinions on their origins myself.

For completeness' sake, I'm planning that the culture on the High Gourun will have been influenced by the existence of a mountain kingdom to the west, probably coming to prominence in the early first millenium YP. This kingdom would be small, but rich due to cross-mountain trade (a 'silk road kingdom'), and depopulated but defensible due to terrain. It would introduce a religion into the Gouron, probably imported from the West, although it could well be native. The inhabitants I'd assumed would be Habeo or related, but they could equally well be Damak (if the Damak aren't related to the Habeo), or unaffiliated, or even from the west, although I think that less likely. And if they're from the west they may or may not be (particularly may not, if the plateau is moved further north) Western.

[Radius Solis]

At this point I'm holding back on map-commentage because I have dozens of things I could say and I'm having trouble telling which, if any of them, are at all important. Most are just nitpicks, really. Overall I would say I'm favorably inclined to the emerging map consensus, though.

---

Re: Habeo, it would make some sense for their languages to be distantly related to the Talo-Edastean langs. But if so, it'd be less of a reconstruction headache for us if the connections are far enough back in the murky past that by the time Akana has linguists they won't be able to reconstruct more than a very shaky and skeletal common ancestor due to attrition of cognates. That'd let whoever does the Habeo langs (if anyone) make most of it up, while giving them an existing language to retain some grammatical parallels with, if desired. E.g. perhaps the Habeo langs are split-S active (like proto-Talo-Edastean probably was), or perhaps they also have a lot of prefixed morphological moods, or inflected articles, whatever.

I don't think the Habeo can really be from Proto-Western without making some significant changes... the way things are currently set up, they're arriving in the Aiwa valley only a few generations after the initial P-W diaspora.

---

Also, have you considered yet that Rathedan as Dewrad first described it basically already is a silk-road kingdom? It's got control over the only good mid-continent trade route between the Aiwa valley on one side, and both Xsalad and the Western plains on the other. That bottleneck is a major cause of its economic success in classical times. And given the presence of this relatively easy (if a bit indirect) route to the West, we will probably need to come up with political reasons for a new direct silk road through the much higher western mountains to become economical later on.

[Salmoneus]

In real life, there have always been multiple routes for trade. Take trade between China and Europe. There was trade around the south coast via the Indonesians and Arabs. There was trade through Indochina and into India. There was trade across the Himalaya; through the Hunza valley; through the Wakhan corridor; through the Alay and Ferghana valleys; through Dzungaria; even north of Dzungaria, iirc. All these routes were trade bottlenecks, so they multiplied like holes in a bladder with too much pressure in it. I would rather ask - "why WOULDN'T there be trade across the mountains, eventually?" The natural default is for trade. The people don't sit around saying 'well, why bother searching out a new trade route, when we can just go via the existing chain of monopolistic nations'.

More specifically:

: the western end of the two routes would be different. political unrest could close the southern route, or maybe more northern people just want to avoid the southern monopoly

: the southern route goes via the Tjakori valley, which is probably subject to barbarian groups and certainly to changes in Xsali foreign policy - the existence of the luscious trade route would probably inspire them to at least have a presence in the region, even if, as with China in central asia, they are not able to impose centralised rule there. This increase in rents, and possibly war between Xsali and Athale, could make the route less appealing

: if the northern route goes via a more northerly plateau, the western end point could actually be very different

: not a reason, but a tie-in - the emergence of a more northerly trade-route could help explain the decline of Athale, and, if it occurs a little earlier, would explain why Athale bothers to occupy the upper Aiwa valley - it would cut off a competing trade-route.

: if it happens later, conflict between different Daiadak cities could help inspire a new route



I would probably combine these points:
a) people on the west, further north than the trading nations, send out explorers who find routes over the mountains, but they are too wild to be a really safe route
b) early first millenium, the mountains and the steppe become more peaceful and ordered, and a trade route begins
c) Athale moves north to cut off this route, and it stagnates
d) Troubles in the west, and possibly with the Xsali, contribute to the dwindling of the southern route and the decline of Athale. Northern Daiadak try to encourage the northern trade route, creating conflict between city-states, hastening the end of the empire
e) as the Empire dwindles, inter-city conflict, combined with continuing troubles elsewhere, minimises down the southern route. the northern route thrives briefly

By 1200, i'm not envisaging this silk road as imperial in any way. It's arduous and dangerous - but it avoids the taxes that the southern countries would put on the goods. Likewise, in our world, Chinese goods could perfectly well travel through India and Iran and the Caliphate - but there were also more direct but arduous routes through the barbarian lands of Central Asia that avoided Indian taxes at the least, and often Iranian and Arab ones as well. The Gourun cities are like Khiva or Bokhara (without the nomad empires they occassionally sported) - phenomenally wealthy cities, but isolated from the rest of the world, and totally dependent on a volatile trade. And without the unity or manpower to be a political threat to others. If the Rathedan is resurgent, no doubt these cities will decay from lack of trade, and then be conquered again. And they live in fear of the barbarians around them rising up (but they don't rise up much, because they're bribed).

[kodé]

I vote for Sal-Akana, but with the southern part of Eigeland shaped as in Cedh-Akana.

Seconded, but with the southern part of Eigeland extended a square or so further westwards (just so it looks less like Wonky India).

Fourthed (counting Sal).

: Maybe the south-eastern of the three continents ther could be spun clockwise a little and move south so that the rift looked a little less recent? [eg Africa and South America no longer align, even though the outlines clearly match)

Hmm, now that you mention it, I'd have to agree. Also, we could spin or re-align the islands off that continent's eastern coast and have them link up with the south-western part of Cedh's Eigeland via archipelago. The archipelago wouldn't even have to be that long.

: Maybe have something there pointing up? I have a general idea that this world is all things drooping down, maybe have that island chain go up instead?

You mean into the north-west sector? We could extend either the north-south cordillera in the middle south-west continent or the island chain going out west of Eigeland.


Huh, even though we've got a lot of new land mass, most of it's in the tropics, leaving our current sphere (Islands + Aiwa watershed + adjacent regions) the major temperate region, with the eastern half of the north-eastern continent running a close second (albeit much more rainy, to the point of drench and deluge).

[Dewrad]

Huh, even though we've got a lot of new land mass, most of it's in the tropics, leaving our current sphere (Islands + Aiwa watershed + adjacent regions) the major temperate region, with the eastern half of the north-eastern continent running a close second (albeit much more rainy, to the point of drench and deluge).

Perhaps angling the southwestern section of Eigeland north and west would solve this? So that the Western Sea is actually like a really big Hudson's Bay?

[Cedh]

We now have an official reference timeline!

(At this moment it includes only information on Athalē, Lasomo, and Huyfárah, and only that which had been on the KQ before. But there are loads of dates scattered around in this thread and in diverse language descriptions, all we have to do is organize them and add them to the timeline...)

[A pocketful of songs.]

Here's the Salmoneus-map from my last post plus some of your ideas for changes.

I'd still like to do the Habeo languages even if Talo-Edastean. First, I'll fake-reconstruct an ancestor of Ndak Ta to derive them. That won't be proto-TE, since if I recall right Sal's doing the Antagg languages as a similar fake sister branch -- proto-Valley-Talo-Edastean, maybe. I suppose we could have pVTE and proto-Antaggic splitting sufficiently deep that reconstruction wouldn't be very solid or fruitful, like what Radius suggested, if you all are comfortable with that hand-waving. Maybe Tlaliolz could be from pVTE, too.

[Cedh]

Here's the Salmoneus-map from my last post plus some of your ideas for changes.

The polar continent is a good idea, and the twins look a lot better now. Let me, however, suggest a few changes to Zeluzia and southern Eigeland:



(The northeastern section of the map is reverted to that from the "3rd proposal", which looked best to me)

[Dewrad]

Here's the Salmoneus-map from my last post plus some of your ideas for changes.

The polar continent is a good idea, and the twins look a lot better now. Let me, however, suggest a few changes to Zeluzia and southern Eigeland:

I really like that (although I'd still agitate for a southwestern Eigeland curving up a bit more northwards than that). Nevertheless, do we have a winner, gentlemen?

[Radius Solis]

I'm willing enough to go with it.

[kodé]

I'm willing enough to go with it.

So am I. If there be no objections, we can start working on climate stuff. I'm way too busy for the next 9 days (senior essay), so I wouldn't be able to do climate work until February 3rd or 4th. I'm willing to help out after that.

[dunomapuka]

I add to the general agreement with that latest map. Huzzahs for cedh and Zetler/pocketful of songs!

Now, as promised by me on the KneeQuickie, is a proposed general outline of the history of Huyfárah from the Second Golden Age onward.

Suggestions are obviously welcome. Some major things to note:
-I have moved the (final) sack of Ussor 100 years back. Still it seems like Huyfárah lasts a little longer than it ought to.
-Athale also seems to last an awfully long time; I wonder if the fall of Akeladada should be pushed back a bit as well.
-The end of the millennium brings a period of Volkwanderung as both Huyfarah and Athale collapse: Isthmus incursions from the north (briefly setting up a kingdom at Ussor), an invasion by a non-Isthmus northwestern barbarian group, invasions by Latsomo, which becomes a new power after taking back its capital city, and the introduction of some nomadized Daiadak who wander in as Athale begins to crumble. They establish a little kingdom around Barnágo. This could be the setting for a later language such as Yad!
-I don't know the ethnicity of the aforementioned "northwestern barbarian group." They might be a scion of Sal's Mohudza/Moyay phylum, or something else.
-Classical Fáralo names are used throughout.

c. 343-405 "The Second Golden Age;" I might propose calling this the "Silver Age."
405-443 Declining stability: Several natural disasters hit; barbarian raids; power shifts toward Sertek as emperors relocate there (but official capital, and the Senate, remains in Ussor).
444-453 War with Athale resulting in control over Latsomo.
453-489 Recovery; Latsomo is organized as a client state of Huyfarah.
489-546 The beginning of the end. Latsomo is lost again and the southern half ceded back to Athale; treaty states that northern half will remain independent as long as it is not dominated by Huyfarah in any way. Athale expands along the Eigə at expense of Huyfarah The emperor is removed by the Senate for having lost the war; returns two years later after his replacement is assassinated. A sense of unease and moral decay. More assassinations. Buruja is lost. The natives of the Fmanahŋ Talam push back the Fáralo to the north end of the islands.
547-584 Gigantic, confused, multi-phase civil war, with the end result that the Malei Dynasty is deposed, the empire shrinks further, and loses the coast from Mæmedéi south, which reorganizes as a federation of city-states, run by religious and political reformists (calling themselves the Kəgeiru, or "Cynics/Atheists," though their beliefs seem to be deistic).
584-636 Partial recovery in north, despite brief struggle for throne in spring of 600.
636-683 Kechemin Dynasty starts strong but descends into ineptitude. The deposed House of Haran (in power twenty years prior) muscles their way onto the throne. The Senate is dissolved.
683-691 Civil War between Haran and Heigo.
691-755 The Heigo install themselves as the last "real" dynasty and the Haran family flee to their home territory near Oltumosou, but then the Oltu Valley is taken over by a non-Isthmus barbarian group from the northwest. The Heigo continue ruling, but under the barbarians' thumb.
755-786 The aforementioned barbarians are chased out of the Oltu and become entrenched in the Tal. The empire has essentially ceased to function, but the bitter end comes with the sack of Ussor by an Isthmus people (specifically, one related to or descended from the Feråjin) in 786.
786-c. 822 "Barbarian period": Half-heartedly the Isthmus chieftain proclaims a "Ghenno" Dynasty and "Huyfárah" continues in name but rules over nothing beyond the Oltu Valley. About 800 it peters out of existence, and bands of Isthmus peoples fight bands of the "northwesterners," while the Fáralo peasantry remain stationary and hapless.
822-900 The Isthmus kingdom on the Oltu is deposed by Fáralo locals. They proclaim a kingdom of "Hagíbəl" (vernacular: <i>Haju:</i>) on the Oltu which has no pretense of imperial power, and remains semi-stable perhaps because of this; internecine warfare between Fáralo kingdoms.
900-1000 Lasomian incursions into Hagíbəl, which fights several wars with Haran. Later, a separate kingdom on the Porásh emerges. Barnágo separates from Hagíbəl.
1000-1100 Hagíbəl acquires Mæmedéi, and a revitalized Lasomo takes over the Tal and adjacent areas. Stray Daiadak groups wander around aimlessly pillaging, then band together and take over Barnágo, establishing a kingdom on the upper Oltu.

The South (after secession)
579-584 The Southern cities cease fighting Huyfárah, and a federated "New Fáralo Republic" is proclaimed, but it is mired in revolutionary chaos.
584-625 Peace resumes. The member city-states of the new nation are Mæmedéi, Azbæ'bu, Miədu, Puwa, and Laspera; Luyosha and Momuva'e are incorporated a few years later. There is a sense of enthusiasm about the new state and a minor intellectual flourishing develops, but the cities are smaller than five hundred years earlier, and the country still feels war-torn. Mæmedéi quits and is peacefully reincorporated into Huyfárah (605).
625-670 The federation remains essentially stable, but the initial flourishing is over once the Kascan cities quit (except Puwa, which is essentially a Fáralo city by this point). Most of Kasca slides into anarchy yet again, though the kingdom of Palge is strong during this period.
670-738 The federation declines. A lot of rhetoric to the effect of "we're better than Huyfárah because we're free and prosperous and we live in a republic" but the presidents had become dictatorial, and trade had slowed.
738-c. 800 The federation splits into its remaining constituent republics (really pseudo-republican dictatorships) of Miədu, Azbæ'bu and Puwa. Outbreaks of religious violence between various religions in the cities; various uprisings and assassinations; general chaos, though urban life hums on.
c. 800-900 A syncretic new religion develops in the cities after a prophet emerges in Puwa promising to reconcile previous traditions, though not all are swayed. Hereditary rule is reinstated in emulation of the old Huyfarahan ideal. Some Daiadak had wandered into old Huyfarahan territory and were battling the "northwesterners" along the Eigə and northward.
c. 900-1000 Northern Lasomians begin fighting the "northwesterners," who, pursued from all fronts, flee yet further south (they had been semi-settled in the Tal) and later sack Buruja. Miədu and Puwa unite once more and fight Azbæ'bu.
1000-1100 The kingdom of Miədu expands its borders westward and northward, incorporating Azbæ'bu and much territory inland, until it gains dominance in the region; the rulers have designs of taking over Hagíbəl and parts of Kasca, but their chief rival in this period is Latsomo. The size of the city increases again, and literacy and education are on the upswing.

Dynasties of Huyfárah
c. -400-Late 220's Balanin Dynasty
Late 220's Interregnum (Civil War)
230-343 Etou Dynasty
343-505 Malei Dynasty
505-507 Interregnum (Senate kicks out Emperor, replaced with a general or something)
507-562 Malei Dynasty (previous Emperor comes back)
562-572 Interregnum (last Malei dies during course of Civil War; pretender is executed)
572-600 Jærə Dynasty
600-636 Haran Dynasty
636-655 Kechemin Dynasty
655-683 Haran Dynasty (again)
683-691 Interregnum (civil war between Haran and Heigo)
691-744 Heigo Dynasty
744-755 Heigo under barbarian control
755-769 Heigo Dynasty (barbarians expelled from Ussor)
769-771 Interregnum (general anarchy)
771-786 Kioma Dynasy
786-c. 800 Unofficial "Ghenno" Dynasty as Isthmus peoples take over Oltu Valley.
c. 800 Isthmus kingdom on Oltu peters out of existence. No more dynasties.

[zompist]

Why so many dynasties? Past the Malei your dynasties look more like single emperors.

1000-1100 The kingdom of Miədu expands its borders westward and northward, incorporating Azbæ'bu and much territory inland, until it gains dominance in the region; the rulers have designs of taking over Hagíbəl and parts of Kasca, but their chief rival in this period is Latsomo. The size of the city increases again, and literacy and education are on the upswing.

Probably we won't step on each other if you stick to major cities in Kasca, but just after this period is Wïmakwå's rise, consolidating power in the delta by 1250.

[dunomapuka]

Why so many dynasties? Past the Malei your dynasties look more like single emperors.

I was picturing them becoming shorter and shorter as a sign of general decline: frequent assassinations, family disputes, small civil wars... if it's really way too many I see a few that could be merged, but they should still be short.

Probably we won't step on each other if you stick to major cities in Kasca, but just after this period is Wïmakwå's rise, consolidating power in the delta by 1250.

Yeah, I figured those "designs of taking over Kasca" would remain unfulfilled, or fulfilled only very briefly. They got distracted by various things.

[zompist]

How much do we know about social and technology development on Akana?

I'm guessing it's something like
Tsikakan - bronze age; command economies
1st milennium - iron age, 'classical'; market economies
2nd milennium - medieval, then renaissance

and we've got printing and gunpowder in the mid-2nd milennium.

But perhaps it'd help to fill in some important bits: chariots— iron— the stirrup— the plow— the windmill— seafaring ships— the compass— distillation— the mineral acids— glass— lenses— the joint-stock corporation— the intertubes— etc. And perhaps access to interesting new crops.

Suddenly dynamic and conquering nations will often be associated with some advance in these areas. Plus it's more interesting than just having empires ebb and flow.