Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[Radius Solis]

I'm guessing it's something like
Tsikakan - bronze age; command economies
1st milennium - iron age, 'classical'; market economies
2nd milennium - medieval, then renaissance

I can't help but notice just how Earthlike that looks... substitute "AD" for "YP" and it gets boring-looking really fast. Maybe we should try to get these other technological developments happening at less obvious times. What about having electricity take bloody forever to get harnessed? Or having nuclear technology never be developed at all?

[Zhen Lin]

Well, actually, if we go with what is set out by Erhadzy, we don't get computers or the internet until the late 3rd millennium or early 4th millennium, so that scenario is already partly in place.

[Corumayas]

I've been away from home most of the last week; looks like a lot has happened in the meantime! Some comments:

I have no problems with the consensus map that seems to have emerged.

I like the term "Silver Age" for the "Second Golden Age" of Huyfárah.

I agree it would be interesting to do more with technological etc. development; and that some developments should probably take longer than on Earth. We've got 4000+ years to fill in after the "classical" period, after all.... (For what it's worth, I originally imagined Ghaf as spoken in a more-or-less modern world ca 3600; I now think it should probably be both a little earlier and a little more futuristic than that, but I really don't want it to be too futuristic.)


Contrariwise, though, my main complaint right now is that I'm surprised at the slowness of the rise of Huyfárah, as it's shown on the wiki timeline. I mentioned this once before, but let me explain my thinking a little more...

-First, the Balanin dynasty currently spans a very long time-- some 600 years. While by no means impossible, this is certainly unusual, and requires some explanation-- both for why they ruled so long (the Japanese emperors are the only longer-lasting dynasty I can think of), and for why the line ceased (I'd think any non-Balanin ruler coming to power after such a long time would pretty much have to manufacture a Balanin pedigree to be accepted as legitimate, unless there were some really revolutionary social changes at the same time or something).

-Second, -800 seems very early for Etúgə to be around. Rory lists 8 major philosophers of Siixtaguna, of which Sútapaj (founder of the school of Etúgə that the Fáralo converted to) is the second; and several are said to follow each other closely in time or be students of one another. It's definitely implied, as far as I can tell, that the latest of these are quite recent, or even current, at the time his grammar describes (which I assume is ca 130 Y.P. like the others); so I have a hard time seeing the lifetime of Sútapaj as more than a few centuries before that. From that description alone, it seems like he could easily be as recent as -100 or so (possibly even later). So putting him at or before -800 seems extreme; -300 to -400 is about the earliest I can accept as making sense.

-Furthermore, from the original description of the effects of Etúgə on Fáralo society, I'd expected the unification and expansion to occur much more quickly after their conversion: the conversion and the rise of the Balanin in quick succession, and the beginnings of imperial expansion shortly after. Instead, here we have 400 years between the appearance of Etúgə and the rise of the Balanin (but conquest of Miədu et al. somehow happens before unification), and further expansion begins another century later. It all seems kind of sluggish, for a supposedly invigorated new society.

Maybe none of these objections are very serious problems on their own. But it seems to me that this chronology overall still suffers from the "and then everyone sat around and nothing much happened for a few centuries" problem. I'd suggest condensing it a lot, maybe something like this:

-300s: life of Sútapaj
-200s: Etúgə religion spreads to Huyfárah
c. -200: Balanin dynasty unites Huyfárah
c. -175: Huyfárah conquers Miədu; Momuva'e and Påwe become (fairly independent) vassals
c. -150: Momuva'e collapses into anarchy; Påwe does better
c. -140: Huyfárah occupies the Dagæm islands, beginning its imperial period
-112: Påwe conquers Momuva'e, leading to war with Huyfárah
-109: Huyfárah conquers Momuva'e (though it does not hold it for long) and occupies most of the Kasca delta

Maybe this could even be shifted a century later or something; or it could be condensed but not quite this much; or some of these events in Kasca could be earlier and involve a pre-Balanin, pre-Etúgə Fáralo state. Or maybe I'm full of it and it's just fine the way it stands. I don't know. What do you all think?

[zompist]

Hmm, tricky. I just re-read Rory's page, and I don't see a problem with inserting centuries between some of the paragraphs. After all, if we wrote a précis of Greek or Chinese philosophy of similar length, that's what we'd get— e.g. from Thales to St Augustine is more than a milennium.

I'd be happy to move Sútapaj up a couple of centuries though.

I was trying to fit in with Radius's chronology of Kasadgad Kasca here:

http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... 173#586173

The Balanin can't be much later than I had them (-400) without conflicting with Radius's notes. You're right that the conquest of Miedu seems to happen too early anyway.

If Radius agrees, maybe we can have something like this:

-575 Sútapaj
-500 to -350 conversion of Fáralo
-325 Balanin dynasty
-275 conquest of Miedu (moving this up from -550)
-225 conquest of islands

[Radius Solis]

Hmm. What about having two conquests of Miedu, then - an earlier one that's more an outgrowth of the original Faraghin conquest of the Oltu valley than anything else, and the second one in -225? WIth the Kascans getting it back in the middle.

I'm not too married to the details of that post I wrote... I foresaw conflicts and expected to have to revise it significantly. Which I will do as soon as we're more solid about the Huyfarahan timeline here.

[Cedh]

...the introduction of some nomadized Daiadak who wander in as Athale begins to crumble. They establish a little kingdom around Barnágo. This could be the setting for a later language such as Yad!

I'd been envisioning Yād as the language of a free and resurgent Lasomo in the mid-2nd millennium. But it could as well belong to a Dāiadak group displaced in the Völkerwanderung you mention... we'll have to see which of these fits best with the emerging history.

Why so many dynasties? Past the Malei your dynasties look more like single emperors.

I was picturing them becoming shorter and shorter as a sign of general decline: frequent assassinations, family disputes, small civil wars... if it's really way too many I see a few that could be merged, but they should still be short.

The Jærə and Kioma dynasties might be unneeded. I'd suggest keeping these names for individual emperors of the Haran and Heigo dynasties, respectively. Or rather, Jærə could still be from a different family, but in power only for a few years during the 547-584 civil war, being deposed by Haran who finally reinstates order.

I'm guessing it's something like
Tsikakan - bronze age; command economies
1st milennium - iron age, 'classical'; market economies
2nd milennium - medieval, then renaissance

I can't help but notice just how Earthlike that looks...

I'm also in favour of a different rhythm of development compared to *here*. Some suggestions to follow soon...

[chronology issues]

The easiest solution, to me, seems to have Miədu occupied early on, with the delta itself never really "conquered" but rather re-orienting towards Faraghin Miədu for economic reasons. The unification and expansion of Huyfárah as an empire could (and should) then be relatively late. So what about this:

-594: Faraghin conquest of Miədu.
-592 to -575: Kascan fight for independence from "People X"*, lightly supported by the Faraghin. Over the following centuries, Momuva'e and Påwe are officially vassals of the southernmost Faraghin kingdoms, but de facto independent city states.
-578: Laspera abandoned.
c. -500 to -300: Faraghin influence gradually expands through most of the delta for economic reasons.
-447 to -391: life of Sútapaj.
-322: naval expedition "discovers"** Siixtaguna, returning to Ussor with several Etúgəist monks.
-320 to -200: Etúgə religion spreading among the Fáralo.
c. -300: Momuva'e collapses into anarchy; Påwe does better
-181: Balanin dynasty unites Huyfárah.
-169: Huyfárah occupies the Dagæm islands, beginning its imperial period.
-142: Čisse founded in order to protect Huyfárah's eastern border against the Doroh.
-112: Påwe conquers Momuva'e, leading to war with Huyfárah
-109: Huyfárah conquers Momuva'e (though it does not hold it for long) and occupies most of the Kasca delta

Some things that should be addressed:

* Who are these "People X"? Maybe these could be Tlaliolz, because a conflict with them would give an incentive to the Faraghin to expand west of the Oltu. Or else, Miwans. Another not-too-far-off option would be Hitatc, who according to Sal's scenario are present in Lasomo at this time and become absorbed into Ndok culture by -500, possibly triggered by a defeat in Kasca. After all, Buruja is already halfway between the delta and Ngahêxôldod.

** How is the "discovery" of Siixtaguna meant to come about? Certainly by sea, because on land there are at least the Doroh and Lotoka peoples in between (although the latter might arrive on the isthmus later than this). But the Ndak empire already controlled all of the Huyfárah coast, and I'm sure there were trade routes to Siixtaguna before the "discovery". Maybe a conflict between different Faraghin kingdoms prompted Ussor to contact the eastern peoples directly instead of having to pass through rival territory.

---
(On a side note: I have some ideas about Siixtaguna in the back of my head. I might post some things about this later.)

[Cedh]

(On a side note: I have some ideas about Siixtaguna in the back of my head. I might post some things about this later.)

Does anyone still have notes about Isles family sound changes from the original reconstruction game, specifically for Mûtsipsa' and Maotatşali?

---

About the world map:
I've just projected my latest suggestion onto a sphere, and most of it looks good. However, the polar regions are still in need of some minor modifications. See here (the grid lines are 10° apart):


The north pole. The land shapes look okay, but the northernmost tips of Eigeland seem a bit too far north. The western part of the coast should probably be completely navigable if Sal wants to place a maritime culture there. More importantly even, the island of Tymytys in the northeastern corner of the continent (home to the Maotatşali language and a theatre-loving culture) is now located at ~65°N, which is the latitude of northern Iceland!


The south pole. It's easy to see that the land shapes are very distorted in this orthographic projection rather than in the original equirectangular one.

[Radius Solis]

Some things that should be addressed:

* Who are these "People X"? Maybe these could be Tlaliolz, because a conflict with them would give an incentive to the Faraghin to expand west of the Oltu. Or else, Miwans. Another not-too-far-off option would be Hitatc, who according to Sal's scenario are present in Lasomo at this time and become absorbed into Ndok culture by -500, possibly triggered by a defeat in Kasca. After all, Buruja is already halfway between the delta and Ngahêxôldod.

** How is the "discovery" of Siixtaguna meant to come about? Certainly by sea, because on land there are at least the Doroh and Lotoka peoples in between (although the latter might arrive on the isthmus later than this). But the Ndak empire already controlled all of the Huyfárah coast, and I'm sure there were trade routes to Siixtaguna before the "discovery". Maybe a conflict between different Faraghin kingdoms prompted Ussor to contact the eastern peoples directly instead of having to pass through rival territory.

I sorta like the idea of not having People X be a "foreign" tribe. Surely there are plenty of other Ndak-descended peoples throughout the valley that we just haven't described yet because their areas aren't as important. There is more to the lower valley than just Lasomo+Kasca+Huyfarah! Perhaps a group that lived on the north bank of the Aiwa between Buruja and Akeladada?

As for the discovery of Siixtaguna, I think it should be a real discovery. The Ndak probably would have heard tales, but they were not enough of a maritime people to simply go find out about them. And there were Isthmus and Latokan peoples blocking the land routes - they were probably just plain too far from the imperial center in Kasadgad to be worth fighting.

[Corumayas]

The land shapes look okay, but the northernmost tips of Eigeland seem a bit too far north. The western part of the coast should probably be completely navigable if Sal wants to place a maritime culture there. More importantly even, the island of Tymytys in the northeastern corner of the continent (home to the Maotatşali language and a theatre-loving culture) is now located at ~65°N, which is the latitude of northern Iceland!

Yeah. It seems to me that, if this planet's climates are earthlike, Tymytys should be as much as 20° further south than that. But moving all of Eigeland that far south would make the Eige valley tropical!

My suggestion is to change the angle of the Siixtaguna coast, so that instead of jutting north at a right angle it bends much more subtly. That way Siixtaguna and Tymytys will be less arctic, and the east-west extent of the continent will be greater as well. If desired, we could also maybe squash the northwest a little to accommodate Sal's maritime people.

Another thing I've noticed is that Avaja's island(s) southeast of Eigeland are supposed to be tropical. So I suggest making that chain dip further south (maybe 10° below where it is now). (Also the shapes of those two big islands have always looked weird to me...)

It might also be desirable to move the whole continent south a tiny bit, though I wouldn't suggest a shift of more than about 5-10°. This plus a less dramatic change in the angle of Siixtaguna might be a decent solution.


EDIT:

...the introduction of some nomadized Daiadak who wander in as Athale begins to crumble. They establish a little kingdom around Barnágo. This could be the setting for a later language such as Yad!

I'd been envisioning Yād as the language of a free and resurgent Lasomo in the mid-2nd millennium. But it could as well belong to a Dāiadak group displaced in the Völkerwanderung you mention... we'll have to see which of these fits best with the emerging history.

According to Legion's A'gaf grammar, the kingdom of Thāras is supposed to be conquered in the late second millenium by a rival kingdom. I've been thinking that a Yād-speaking Lasomo would be a good candidate for that. But of course it could be someone else (including Yād-speaking nomads).

Regarding Hufarah's chronology, all of the recent suggestions sound like plausible improvements to me. Hopefully we can pick one without too much trouble... cedh's seems pretty good... maybe we could modify it slightly to accommodate zompist's and Radius' suggestions?

[dunomapuka]

...the introduction of some nomadized Daiadak who wander in as Athale begins to crumble. They establish a little kingdom around Barnágo. This could be the setting for a later language such as Yad!

I'd been envisioning Y?d as the language of a free and resurgent Lasomo in the mid-2nd millennium. But it could as well belong to a D?iadak group displaced in the Völkerwanderung you mention... we'll have to see which of these fits best with the emerging history.

According to Legion's A'gaf grammar, the kingdom of Th?ras is supposed to be conquered in the late second millenium by a rival kingdom. I've been thinking that a Y?d-speaking Lasomo would be a good candidate for that. But of course it could be someone else (including Y?d-speaking nomads).

I have Lasomo as a rising power ca. 1000 YP. I didn't say "Ndok" in my timeline because I'm not sure they're Ndok-speaking by that point, though maybe about half of them do. The rest would speak Ædhade, as would any Daiadak who migrate into Huyfárah, so perhaps we could think about another Ædhade-descendant*.

Regarding Hufarah's chronology, all of the recent suggestions sound like plausible improvements to me. Hopefully we can pick one without too much trouble... cedh's seems pretty good... maybe we could modify it slightly to accommodate zompist's and Radius' suggestions?

Yes, I like the flow of what cedh's got in his most recent version.


*but, for the love of God, let's call it "Barnago-ese" in some form, we don't need yet another name that directly descends from "Ndak Ta." Actually, would it be too weird to simply change the names of some of those languages once we understand their cultural context? Or we could go my route where the full name of Namidu means "the Faralo of Miedu," thus Yad might become "[the Yad] of Latsomo," or something.

[zompist]

OK, I made some adjustments to the timeline... mostly taking cedh's dates and filling in earlier developments.

Compressing the Balanin dynasty and the imperial period makes sense; but empires come out of a long period of development. My solution here is to build on the mini-revival in Kasca c. -900: this triggers development in Huyfárah. A truce negotiated by the priestess Deunagho allows peaceful development and expansion for over a century; over this period the ruling class also adopted the Fáralo language of their subjects. A new burst of wars after this spread many Fáralo along the littoral and completed the ethnic shift in Miedu.

There's no real need for deep-ocean-going ships during the pre-Balanin period; the littoral can be explored with coast-hugging ships, but the Fáralo develop the biggest and fastest of these. The expedition to Siixtaguna was probably a one-off, like Zheng He's explorations: it was just too far to establish regular trade (which is why later developments in Etuge never got back to Huyfárah). By Balanin times, however, true ocean-going ships were being built.

For reference, here's what I have. I think the vassalage of Momuva'e and Påwe should go much later, into imperial times.

c. -1400: Faraghin conquer Oltu valley
-1310: Faraghin break into multiple baronies
-1258: temporary Ndak reconquest of lower Aiwa and Oltu valleys
c. -1230: Ndak stop maintaining their canal; it gradually fills with silt and becomes just another shallow river channel
-1202: Major hurricane destroys coastal Kasadgad cities, sending it into permanent decline
-1170 Faraghin regain control of the Oltu
c. -900: rise of five city-states in Kasadgad (Kasca): Miedu, Momuva'e, Påwe, Laspera, and Buruja
c. -800: Truce of Deunagho between Faraghin barons enables burgeoning trade and settlement
762: Sertek founded by Fáralo merchants, establishes itself against Fårajin on the Poráš
c. -650: Wars with Sertek end the Truce of Deunagho; many Fáralo settle away from the fighting as far as Kasca and Oltumosou
-520 Barons of Ussor conquer Miedu
c. -450: death of Sútapaj
c. -400: Fáralo naval expedition discovers Siixtaguna, bringing back several Etúgəist monks
c. -300: Momuva'e collapses into anarchy; Påwe does better
-198 Mentek, baron of Ussor, unites Huyfárah, beginning the Balanin dynasty
-185: Huyfárah occupies the Dagæm islands, beginning its imperial period
-167: Huyfárah in control of Oltumosou; begins pacifying the inland Fårajin
-142: Čisse founded in order to protect Huyfárah's eastern border against the Doroh
-133: Miedu, seeing which way the wind is blowing, voluntarily joins to Huyfárah

[Radius Solis]

Awesome. I have some questions / issues, in aid of fitting this together with Kascan history...

You don't mention the People X wars in there; where do they fit in? Or do they? The dates are pretty mobile so long as it was after the -900 resurgance and at least a few hundred years before "present". The Faralo control of the Kascan delta was supposed to 1. be a result of the People X wars and 2. take place not long after Faralo control of Miedu. Does this need to change, or can it still be welded onto the Huyfarah timeline at some point? I'm flexible about dates, but I'd like to have an idea when they actually were.

The delta issue is important for its ripple effects: loss of it is the reason Momuva'e collapses, which in turn leads Påwe to invade it, leading to conflicts with and land cessions to Huyfarah, which brings Påwe into greater contact with Faralo people, leading to their learning about this free-market-economy idea, which in turn contributes to their stability and success. There's not much room for all this to happen after the -133 joining of Miedu with Huyfarah. It'd work fine with the -520 conquering of Miedu if the delta gets taken too, though. Would that be okay with you? The Faralo don't need to keep the delta all along if you don't want them to, only the initial loss is needed. Though Huyfarah will no doubt regain it when they scrap with Påwe over Momuva'e, if not sooner... and maybe a third time later on too.

[zompist]

OK, how about Ussor conquering the delta around, say, -480? As this is only one Fáralo barony, though the most powerful one, it'd make sense that they can't keep it subjugated and a series of wars drags out for decades. Finally Ussor gets tired and settles for partial control and promises of cooperation. It and Påwe recover from the war, but Momuva'e never does.

[Radius Solis]

That works.

[Corumayas]

Everything looks good to me (I still think Sútupaj could be a century or so later without disturbing anything else, but it's not really a problem). If you want, People X could still show up around -500 and be part of the reason Ussor gets involved in the Delta.

I'm with boy #12 on the language names; otoh it's kinda fun to see the different transformations the name "Ndak Ta" undergoes, and that's always been part of this relay I think. My suggestion is that all of these languages should have different exonyms, even if the endonyms are "Æðadě", "Aθáta", "Ayāsthi", etc. (Also, I remember that Ayāsthi's full name means "late Thārasian vulgar Adāta".)

I had a little idea about our dating system, btw: it looks like the Adāta for "Year of the Prophet" would be "Lād ax Rūnak". If we want, we could use the abbreviation LR instead of YP; it'd be a little more in-world, I think. (Though I guess we don't know yet whether they'd actually abbreviate it like that; the writing system may well turn out to be a syllabary rather than an alphabet, in which case they might say something like "Lārū".)

[dunomapuka]

I'm with boy #12 on the language names; otoh it's kinda fun to see the different transformations the name "Ndak Ta" undergoes, and that's always been part of this relay I think. My suggestion is that all of these languages should have different exonyms, even if the endonyms are "Æðadě", "Aθáta", "Ayāsthi", etc. (Also, I remember that Ayāsthi's full name means "late Thārasian vulgar Adāta".)

It is fun to see the different reflexes, yes. If Namɨdu still called itself "Ndak Ta," for some reason, it would be called Edossa... except that's what they call Naidda (and its various descendants). Ndak Ta itself is called Maru Edossa "ancient Naidda." One of my projects in Namɨdu has been to scramble the exonyms and toponyms in a way that is realistic, with a flurry of semantic drift and double-borrowings... I'll include a fun list of these in the lexicon.

@Corumayas: Have you had any thoughts about Latsomo recently, by the way? I've been trying to think what the northern Ndok spend their time DOING in the centuries between the first and second falls of Akeladada. To give them something to do I had Huyfárah take over the whole of Latsomo in the 400's in a war with Athale, but the situation soon reverses itself. Otherwise, I suppose they sat around plotting revenge, and invoking the Mother Goddess to come and "strike the heathen down," but... was their motivation consistent? Would the Akeladadans want to be rescued, if they had been thoroughly Daiadak-ized? (I doubt it.)

One possible answer: Akeladada (though maybe they preferred "Akelodo"), the largest city in the empire, was itching to break free, regardless of ethnicity. As the empire begins to break down, the citizens grow restless; they dream of starting their own empire. When the city goes up in revolt, the Ndok see their chance -- they march in as "liberators" -- and the city voluntarily joins a new political entity of "Latsomo," or "Axôltseubeu," or however, in which they know that they will be culturally and politically dominant (due to sheer size and prestige).

The new nation and cultural identity that emerges is the result of Ndok/Daiadak synthesis. The language the speak is Æðadě, though Ndok pockets stick around for a long time. In their first century or so, they're a bit insular as they strengthen their defenses against barbarian raids, and work on incorporating all the old Ndok city-states. Then, they flex their muscles, taking over adjacent areas that have not yet been incorporated into viable kingdoms: the Tal, parts of the Eige Valley, and whatever.

[Corumayas]

@Corumayas: Have you had any thoughts about Latsomo recently, by the way? I've been trying to think what the northern Ndok spend their time DOING in the centuries between the first and second falls of Akeladada.

Well, at one time we tossed around the idea of having them overrun by Feråjin-descended barbarians. The original motivation was to get Ndok Aisô out of the way; the main effect seems to have been to get us (mostly me, now) working on the Eigə-Isthmus family. I don't know what the current status of that idea is; I'll look back at the thread and see if we had any dates in mind for the invasion.

To give them something to do I had Huyfárah take over the whole of Latsomo in the 400's in a war with Athale, but the situation soon reverses itself.

This seems realistic. Maybe Lasomo was sort of like the Fertile Crescent in Roman times: parts of it usually under Rome, parts of it usually under the Persians, parts of it sometimes independent... never unified, and the borders always in flux.

Your ideas about post-empire Lasomo sound good to me. It seems like we're on our way to a decent collection of post-classical kingdoms: Khalan, Thāras, Lasomo, Mɨdu, Wï'makwå...


EDIT: some corrections/additions, and this: at one point I proposed a date range of "around the 6-7-800s?" for the possible Feråjin invasion/migration into Lasomo. I don't think much has been said about it since then, except for some speculation on what other languages might have influenced them on their way from the Isthmus to Lasomo (via the Qedik zone in the north, we were thinking).


EDIT again: how about this? Based on your timeline, with some details added:

-After the fall of Ngahêxôldod in 277, northern Lasomo emerges as a fairly strong federation of cities under the suzerainty of Oigop'oibauxeu. It manages to resist absorption by either Athalē or Huyfárah for over a century, but gradually declines to become a buffer state, dominated by first one empire, then the other. (Something like Armenia was between Rome and Persia, if I remember correctly.)

-Eventually, in 444-453 the empires go to war. The result is that Huyfárah controls all of Lasomo for a few decades; but by the mid 6th century the situation is reversed, with northern Lasomo nominally independent but practically a client of Athalē (likewise, perhaps, with Buruja). This period (489-546) marks the peak of Athalēran power in the Valley, and the beginning of Huyfárah's long decline.

-For the rest of the 6th and 7th centuries, I'm not sure what happens... maybe Athalē stagnates while Huyfárah decays, and northern Lasomo drifts into independence again? In any case, it's never Dāiadakized the way the south is.

-In the early 8th century, the barbarian invasions begin in the north. Lasomo is affected as well as Huyfárah; maybe some of the same groups attack both. An Isthmus group, descended from Feråjin speakers, eventually settles in northern Lasomo (they may be related, or even identical, to the group that sacks Ussor in 786). Maybe they largely replace the Ndok population, or maybe they largely merge into it.

-Either way, they then invade the south and take Akelodo, precipitating the collapse of the Athalēran empire. Then, maybe, they become Dāiadakized (or Æðadě-ized at this point) and perhaps form the ruling class of the new Lasomian state that begins expanding in the 10th century.

It occurs to me that your non-Isthmus "northwesterner" barbarians could just possibly be Qedik.

[dunomapuka]

This seems realistic. Maybe Lasomo was sort of like the Fertile Crescent in Roman times: parts of it usually under Rome, parts of it usually under the Persians, parts of it sometimes independent... never unified, and the borders always in flux.

-After the fall of Ngahêxôldod in 277, northern Lasomo emerges as a fairly strong federation of cities under the suzerainty of Oigop'oibauxeu. It manages to resist absorption by either Athalē or Huyfárah for over a century, but gradually declines to become a buffer state, dominated by first one empire, then the other. (Something like Armenia was between Rome and Persia, if I remember correctly.)

-Eventually, in 444-453 the empires go to war. The result is that Huyfárah controls all of Lasomo for a few decades; but by the mid 6th century the situation is reversed, with northern Lasomo nominally independent but practically a client of Athalē (likewise, perhaps, with Buruja). This period (489-546) marks the peak of Athalēran power in the Valley, and the beginning of Huyfárah's long decline.

-For the rest of the 6th and 7th centuries, I'm not sure what happens... maybe Athalē stagnates while Huyfárah decays, and northern Lasomo drifts into independence again? In any case, it's never Dāiadakized the way the south is.

I dig this. Perfect.

Your ideas about post-empire Lasomo sound good to me. It seems like we're on our way to a decent collection of post-classical kingdoms: Khalan, Thāras, Lasomo, Mɨdu, Wï'makwå...

Yep. Add to that the other major post-Huyfarah states: Hajū, Haran (or however it's called in the modern language), the Porásh (likewise), and the Dāiadak thing in Barnágo (if we like that idea. I think it's cool).

It occurs to me that your non-Isthmus "northwesterner" barbarians could just possibly be Qedik.

Not a bad idea. It amuses me how far away from their homeland they would end up -- many probably make it to the Etewg Peidæm. They were originally from way to the north, right?

-In the early 8th century, the barbarian invasions begin in the north. Lasomo is affected as well as Huyfárah; maybe some of the same groups attack both. An Isthmus group, descended from Feråjin speakers, eventually settles in northern Lasomo (they may be related, or even identical, to the group that sacks Ussor in 786). Maybe they largely replace the Ndok population, or maybe they largely merge into it.

-Either way, they then invade the south and take Akelodo, precipitating the collapse of the Athalēran empire. Then, maybe, they become Dāiadakized (or Æðadě-ized at this point) and perhaps form the ruling class of the new Lasomian state that begins expanding in the 10th century.

Okay, I like that; I'd prefer for some reason if northern Lasomo stays Ndok, though maybe the name "Ndok" is no longer in use. Try this: When those Feråjin take over ca. 800 (or a little before?), taking advantage of local disunity, they become the new ruling class over a mass of Ndok. Some filter into the local population and adapt to Lasomian society. The topmost stratum remains Isthmus-speaking. Later they mount an invasion of Akelodo, taking it after a few attempts (we've been going with the date 971 for a while, but I'd like it to be a little sooner: I imagine this Isthmus/Lasomo kingdom soon becoming a house of cards, which lasts a couple centuries, at most).

About a generation or so after the invasion of Akelodo, the population grows restless and the locals throw out the rulers (no longer a barbarian horde ruling over the land -- just a dynasty of kings who speak a weird language). A new kingdom is proclaimed centered at Akelodo. There are some internal tensions with the Ndok in the north, but they are smoothed over without the country disintegrating. Then it expands into the vacuum in several directions; its first big conquest is the Tal, which at this point is the Qedik ruling over Fáralo peasants. A rural backwater, no cities. Being part of a vital, urbanized state again is sounding like a good idea. The Lasomians march in, the Qedik are chased out. This is all happening around 1000 Y.P.

Around 900, some eastern Dāiadak, downriver from Akelodo, become semi-nomadized as two large empires fall apart around them. Certainly they didn't just turn into barbarians, but were more like wandering armies, or bands of highwaymen. They camp out in the fields and raid Fáralo villages, or team up with Fáralo villages to raid other Fáralo villages, and frequently the Fáralo would hire them as mercenaries to attack other roving nomadic groups. By 1000 there are settled Dāiadak pockets all over what was western Huyfárah, and by 1030 a bunch of them have gotten together and taken over a city (Barnágo, which was a weak point). Perhaps they would like to conquer Hajū for themselves, but it isn't really feasible. But the Lasomians are next door. They hesitate to invade, because conquering a major Fáralo city might incite all the nearby Fáralo kingdoms to attack. Meanwhile, Barnágo is a thorn in Hajū's side, but they in turn fear invading because it might provoke the Lasomians.

Thus Barnágo has unwittingly become a buffer state, and sort of a nuisance, though chances are this situation will not sustain itself for very long.

[Zhen Lin]

I'm with boy #12 on the language names; otoh it's kinda fun to see the different transformations the name "Ndak Ta" undergoes, and that's always been part of this relay I think. My suggestion is that all of these languages should have different exonyms, even if the endonyms are "Æðadě", "Aθáta", "Ayāsthi", etc. (Also, I remember that Ayāsthi's full name means "late Thārasian vulgar Adāta".)

Indeed. Actually, there are two whole chains of cognate names stretching all the way to the 5th millennium, in the Æðadě and Ayāsthi branches.

[A pocketful of songs.]

Small Habeo preview:<table border="0"><tr><td>He saw the biggest mountains.:
-Proto-Central-Talo-Edastean (c. -3500 - -2500):
- Inato: pa:hinəta:nkəh a.
- Ina-to: pa:-in-əta:nkə-h a-0-0
- see.ERG-PAST big-COMP/SUP-hill-ERG.PL 3.SG/D.HUMAN-SG-ERG
--Ndak Ta (c. -2500 - -1500):
-- Inan a lus daing pains newe.
-- see-PAST.SG 3.SUBJ.SG DEF-OBJ.PL mountain big-COMP-PL most
--Proto-Habeo (c. -1000 - 0):
-- Qʷene puneqʷatik e.
-- qʷ(a)-ene pu-ne-qʷati-k e
-- SOLID.CL-see.ERG big-COMP/SUP-mountain-PL 3SG.HUMAN
---Hill Habeo (c. 0 - 1000):
--- Pana ponapatɨʔ a.
--- p(a)-ana po-na-patɨ-ʔ a
--- SOLID.CL-see.ERG big-COMP/SUP-mountain-PL 3SG.HUMAN
---Plains Habeo (c. 0 - ?):
--- Yene pineʔetiʔ ate.
--- i-ene pi-ne-ʔeti-ʔ at-e
--- OBV.HUMAN-see.ERG big-COMP/SUP-mountain-PL ABS-3SG.HUMAN
---River Habeo (c. 0 - ?):
--- Panekatik us panek eʔene.
--- pa-ne-kati-k us pa-ne-k e-ene
--- big-COMP-mountain-PL than big-COMP-PL 3SG.HUMAN-see</td><td>I liked the man that I saw.:
-Proto-Central-Talo-Edastean:
- Simo:to: lotəq peq inato: e.
- simo:-to: lotə-q peq ina-to: e-0-0
- like.ERG-PAST man-ABS.SG REL.A see.ERG-PAST 1.SG/D-SG-ERG
--Ndak Ta:
-- Tsinan i lung rud româ inan i.
-- like-PAST.SG 1.SUBJ.SG DEF-OBJ.SG man REL-OBJ see-PAST.SG 1.SUBJ.SG
--Proto-Habeo
-- Semu lat paq tuhene e.
-- 0-semu lat paq tu-0-ene e
-- PROX.HUMAN-like.ERG man REL.A ANTERIOR-PROX.HUMAN-see.ERG 1SG
---Hill Habeo
--- Asamo toʔakoʔanaswat ko.
--- a-samo to-a-ko-ana-s-wat ko
--- 3SG.HUMAN-like.ERG ANTERIOR-3SG.HUMAN-1SG-see.ERG-SG.HUMAN.ADJ.SUFFIX-man 1SG
---Plains Habeo
--- Isemi yet peʔ tiyene ku.
--- i-semi yet peʔ ti-i-ene ku
--- OBV.HUMAN-like.ERG man REL.A ANTERIOR-OBV.HUMAN-see.ERG 1SG
---River Habeo
--- Let pek tayeʔene isema i.
--- let pek ta-i-e-ene i-sema i
--- man REL.A ANTERIOR-1SG-3SG.HUMAN-see.ERG 1SG 1SG-like.ERG 1SG</td></tr></table>

[Radius Solis]

That's... interesting. It's interesting enough that I'm pretty sure I should be able to make a better comment than this right now, but, right now, I am drunk. So I will settle for a micro-nitpick, that NT normally didn't allow vowel doubling or hiatus: "paiins" should be "pains" (lol). I probably didn't think far enough ahead at the time to foresee such issues with some of the morphology and state them. What the hell, I basically regurgitated the entire language from scratch in one week, sue me.

[Corumayas]

lots

It all sounds cool to me. The invading northern barbarians are very end-of-the-Roman-empire though, aren't they? I'm not sure if that's something to be avoided or embraced. (If the latter, they could end up founding kingdoms all over the place, but mostly assimilating to the languages and cultures of the locals. Then we wouldn't necessarily need a revolution in Lasomo, just a fairly rapid absorption of the foreign rulers into the --much more numerous anyway-- Æðadě-speaking populace.)

Your Barnago idea is neat. I'm guessing they'd just speak a somewhat divergent dialect of Æðadě, rather than a whole other language.

[zompist]

My initial impression is that Barnago, though it could be taken over by barbarians, would eventually assimilate them. It's part of the Faralo homeland (the Oltu valley). Note that barbarians were able to take over Roman or Chinese territory, but not linguistically.

[Radius Solis]

When you've taken just too damn long already, and burnout is getting seriously in your way, it may be time to stop trying to cough up a grand opus and just upload what you've got.

So, here is the NAIDDA DICTIONARY. All entries are final.

Things included:
* all the core and extended source vocabulary from NT (though I chose to drop some of it), with ample semantic play
* lots of good loanwords
* various bug-fixing and other details attended to (limiting homophony and synonymy, making things make sense, etc)

Things that will have to wait:
* inclusion of grammatical words
* placenames and other proper nouns
* new compound words (derivers are free to make up what they want)
* new derived words (ditto)



I will eventually do an addendum with all the stuff on the second list, but don't hold your breath. I've been fighting against a big creative slump just to get this out the door without compromising too much quality, and I'm so sick of working on it that I should probably wait until I want to again lest it turn out shite. However, if you need placenames or stuff like that, just ask, that's no big deal.

Next up: defining some derivational morphology so that derivers can apply it as they choose. Given what's happened the last two times, I'm not going to offer an ETA, but at least it's not nearly so huge a task as the dictionary. Also high on my Akana priority list: a much fuller cultural and historical description of Kasca.

[dunomapuka]

Small Habeo preview:

Crazy. You seem to be working busily. Do I detect an Algonquian influence?

It all sounds cool to me. The invading northern barbarians are very end-of-the-Roman-empire though, aren't they? I'm not sure if that's something to be avoided or embraced.

Definitely are, though I was primarily thinking of the Yuan Dynasty in China...

My initial impression is that Barnago, though it could be taken over by barbarians, would eventually assimilate them. It's part of the Faralo homeland (the Oltu valley). Note that barbarians were able to take over Roman or Chinese territory, but not linguistically.

Sounds reasonable. Some Daiadak pockets might remain in the countryside, perhaps?

However, if you need placenames or stuff like that, just ask, that's no big deal.

How 'bout the names of the major Kascan cities? I assume they've changed a bit. Guess I've got nothing more to bug you about for now.

*rampantly borrows words*