[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
zompist bboard • View topic - Tidbits from beyond IE

zompist bboard

THIS IS AN ARCHIVE ONLY - see Ephemera
It is currently Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:22 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Tidbits from beyond IE
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:51 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden
I'm making my way thru my volume of modern Chinese grammar, and am, as usual, amazed by how different it is from IE.

Since I can't seem to find some of these features in any conlang, I can't resist posting some tidbits. I hope that these ideas will get out into the conlang community and create more variety among the many IE-like conlangs.

MORPHEMES
90%+ of all Chinese morphemes are monosyllabic. Very very few are more than one syllable long.
Consequently, all these morphemes overloads the Chinese phonetic system and results in a large amount of homophones:

yi4 "advantage"
yi4 "meaning"
yi4 "translate"
yi4 "easy"
yi4 "artistic skill"
yi4 "hundred billion"
yi4 "strangle"
yi4 "Ytterbium"
etc.

However, this poses no problems for the Chinese-speakers, since most of these are morphemes, not words. Very few of these morphemes can stand alone as words. This is like English morphemes "-er", "-volve" and "anti-".
(The only morpheme in the list that can function as a standalone word is, in fact, "Ytterbium".)

WORDS
A few words are monosyllabic. In this case they are single, standalone morphemes. e.g.
ren2 "person"
tiao4 "jump"
yi4 "Ytterbium"

A vast majority of words, however, are disyllabic, made up of morphemes bound to each other:
zhen4 "press"(v.) + ding4 "firm" (adj.) ---> zhen4ding4 "calm, cool" (adj.)
kai1 "open" (v.) + guan1 "close" (v.) ---> kai1guan1 "light switch" (n.)
and two more very non-IE examples:
peng2 "friend" + you3 "friend" ---> peng2you3 "friend"
lao3 "old" + ying1 "eagle" ---> lao3ying1 "eagle"
You see, there's such an obsession with disyllabic morphemes that Chinese starts tacking on unnecessary syllables to fill the ranks up.

trisyllabic words usually form in the pattern 2+1: a disyllabic word gets another morpheme.
tou4ming2 "transparent" + du4 "degree" ---> tou4ming2du4 "transparency"

Finally, quadrisyllabic words are another oddity. The category is the exclusive home to idiomatic expressions:
hua4she2tian1zu2 "extraneous, unnecessary" < made from draw+snake+add+feet
san1xin1er4yi4 "inattentive" < made from three+hearts+two+minds

Both examples above are words (adjectives, in fact), made by idiomatic combination of morphemes. They are not like English idioms, which are phrases made from idiomatic combinations of words. And these idiomatic combinations occur mostly in quadrisyllabic words.

METER

The huge obsession with disyllabic words results in a very "rhythmic" language. This becomes very apparent in descriptive literature, which tends to use a lot of "big words".
E.g.

Ren2sheng3 shi qing1chen2 chong1chu1 long2zi4 de fei1ge1.

Morphemes:
person-life be clear-morning dash-out cage-diminu adjmark fly-pigeon.

Words:
life be earlymorning dash-out cage adjmark pigeon.

"Life is the pigeon flying out of her cage in the morning."

Meter:
2 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 2

The meter is very much "dadum dadum dadum". It's broken at only two places, by grammatical particles which are unstressed.

So there you have it. A little tidbit from beyond IE. More is coming for those interested.[/u]

_________________
Winter is coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 12:20 am 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den
Nice stuff, Ranskaldan. Are you Chinese yourself, or just studying the language?

Some linguists argue that the great number of disyllables in Mandarin derives from the problem of homonyms that you point out... it's a way of reinforcing what you mean. Some evidence for this is 1) wen2yan2 (classical Chinese) had many fewer disyllables, and 2) Cantonese, which has lost fewer phonetic contrasts than Mandarin, has fewer disyllables.

I should really get back to my Mandarin course. (If nothing else, to hear the Chinese girl on the tape. Mandarin sounds really cute spoken by girls...)

I've used some bits of Chinese syntax in Almean languages, notably the te particle in Kebreni.

By the way, the one useful 'smiley' I've created is an arrow :> which you can get by typing : > (without the space).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 12:32 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:17 pm
Posts: 432
I was motivated to learn Cantonese after i heard the conversation in Wayne's World.

still haven't quite got there though . . . got caught up in Hindi.

Zeng!

--Rhisto Filipei


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 9:20 am 
Sanci
Sanci
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 1:54 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Nowhere
sounds like a lot of rambling for a little bit of nonsense. Confucius would be proud.

I've tried a monosyllabic lang, but i haven't gotten much work on it. Eh, life. or should i say, "Eh, pigeon flying out her cage in the early morning"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:34 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden

_________________
Winter is coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 10:22 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden
Here's tidbit #2. It's shorter, I promise.

In Chinese there's a structure showing you how successful an action is. Often, a verb can't survive without this structure:

*Ta1 kan4.
He read
"He reads".

Ta1 kan4 de wan2.
He read affirmat. finish
"He can finish reading it."

Ta1 kan4 bu wan2.
He read neg. finish
"He won't finish reading it."

The complement, wan1, is normally a verb, meaning "to end".

This can also be used, slightly modified, with aspects:

Ta1 kan4 le.
He read-perf
"He has read." (but this structure implies that he didn't read it through.)

Ta1 kan4 wan2 le.
He read-finish-perf.
"He has finished reading."

_________________
Winter is coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:36 pm 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 6:32 am 
Avisaru
Avisaru
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:01 am
Posts: 335
Location: Just outside Hamburg, Germany


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:03 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden

_________________
Winter is coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 3:11 pm 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 4:01 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden

_________________
Winter is coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 8:42 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:04 pm
Posts: 84
Location: soa naroda


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 9:27 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden

_________________
Winter is coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:51 pm 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:13 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:11 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Green Mountains


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:27 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:11 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Green Mountains


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:28 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden

_________________
Winter is coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: IE
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:31 pm 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Stress and pitch
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:51 pm 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:11 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Green Mountains


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:15 am 
Sanci
Sanci

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:54 am
Posts: 28
Location: Hamburg, Germany

_________________
Esli epei eto cumprenan, shris soa Sfaha.
e'osai ko sarji la lojban


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Kebreni and Chinese
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:16 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:11 pm
Posts: 225
Location: Green Mountains


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:42 am 
Sanci
Sanci
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 1:54 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Nowhere
I'd almost consider Tigerian an IE language, except for the fact that it's...well...not a terrestrial language at all. But I did base the grammar and overall sound heavily on Spanish, the only non-English terrestrial language I have a good command of.

If you've noticed, Tigerian words can ramble on. Many roots, apart from endings, have three syllables, and some even have four.
Example : curiperane -> don't count the -ne infinitive ending.

But then again, Tigerian doesn't have your nasssty consonant clusters, either. Of course that's intentional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kebreni and Chinese
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:44 am 
Boardlord
Boardlord

Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Posts: 3377
Location: In the den


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:24 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:13 pm
Posts: 356
Location: im itësin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Kebreni and Chinese
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:38 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:37 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Winterfell / Lannisport / Highgarden

_________________
Winter is coming


Last edited by Ran on Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group