Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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TzirTzi
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Post by TzirTzi »

I'm afraid that since my last announcement of working on a Nualis-Takuna language my attempts have all been abortive - I keep coming up with soundchanges that end up being too radical and resulting in phonologies that don't fit what we know if Nualis or Takuna, or sets that are too conservative and just seem boring to me.

In the end, I'll have to settle with the second - given how much PNT is like what is known about Takuna, at least that side of the family will probably have to be quite conservative... Though we don't know how far back the Nualis-Takuna split was.

So, anyway, despite several attempts I'm back to square one with possible PNT daughterlangs (and currently being distracted by vertical vowel systems and english condialects). So they're still open if anyone wants to try their hand. What's this about a new relay? :)

Shame that Sano doesn't have time to do a script... :( I'd offer to have a go at that, but have my hands full with various other projects + uni at the moment.
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Post by dunomapuka »

It may help to think of the language not as just "Takuña" but "Old Takuña" -- the language of the earliest phase of the empire (if it is an empire) and of Sutapaj. With later Takuña you (or someone else) can go nuts the the SCs.

There's a Takuña word in Rory's grammar I think everyone missed in our initial discussion: Ahuñipá, the name of another philosopher. One starting constraint, therefore, is that Old Takuña's gotta develop an /h/.

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Post by Corumayas »

You know, we don't necessarily have to assign just one protolang for the relay; we could have a Western team, a Nualis-Takuna team, and a Peninsular team if there was a lot of interest.


About the Western family: I think that (especially if the Western speakers spread out quickly after domesticating the horse) rather than three or four big subfamilies, there should ideally be many mostly smaller ones, with complex relationships among them. The greatest diversity should be close to the original homeland.

In particular, I suggest that the "Coastal" and "Steppe" groups mentioned in the PW grammar might be partly or mostly areal rather than genetic... maybe there'd be several coastal-and-nearby subfamilies in the far west, and one or two big steppe ones spreading out to the east (cf. Indo-Iranian within IE).

Steppe-group speakers should probably invade both the Gauron Emwel and Xshalad at some point (maybe not simultaneously), maybe following similar paths to those taken by their Gezoro-Tjakori cousins long before.
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Post by TzirTzi »

If we wanted a set of several, small, but closely/complexly related subfamilies then if we were to use Western in a relay it would require quite significant organisation. We'd have to group participants and say - you two communicate and make sure you share features, etc. Or we'd have to pre-specify a series of sets of predefined features and the participants choose which set (ie. which subfamily) they want to derive with.
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Post by roninbodhisattva »

Hey all,

I've been stalking about the thread and wiki for a little bit, and I've come to the conclusion that'd I'd somehow like to get involved in the project. But, as krinnen also said above, it's a little bit of an overwhelming prospect, it having run so long and there being so much to find out about already. I don't really know where to start.

I'd certainly be up for participating in another relay, but I've also been kicking around developing another language family in an area that's not very heavily developed or taken up yet, specifically maybe in the north to the west of Qedik's area. Is there anything being done with this northern part of Peilaš?

Thanks for any help you could give me,

ronin

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Post by dunomapuka »

roninbodhisattva wrote:I'd certainly be up for participating in another relay, but I've also been kicking around developing another language family in an area that's not very heavily developed or taken up yet, specifically maybe in the north to the west of Qedik's area. Is there anything being done with this northern part of Peilaš?
Nope, nothin' going on there yet. I expect the peoples of that area are not very advanced, and pretty isolated. Even the Qedik remain an enigma at this point. Probably good if you want to create a family from scratch, not so good if you want to interact with other members/groups a lot. Other random suggestions:
-You could do a new Isles language, to be placed... just about anywhere. This family hasn't been touched since the original relay, except Legion's got a revision of Thokyunehota going, which we haven't seen yet.
-There's also the Peninsular family. We've got stuff planned for a couple groups who left the peninsula, but none in the peninsula itself. The latter may get to interact with the great empire of Xšali/Xšalad/whatever at some point.
-If you like the massive and swollen Edastean family, another descendant of Fáralo would be appreciated...
-Or a language of the Western family.
-Or something on a different continent, or south of Xšalad, though this also would leave your work isolated for a long time.

I will cheerfully field any questions you've got, as will others. Often it may appear, from the wiki, that more information exists than has really been verified/discussed - inevitably we post little tidbits of info as "hooks," which then may be called into question, or further developed, later.

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Post by roninbodhisattva »

boy #12 wrote:You could do a new Isles language, to be placed... just about anywhere. This family hasn't been touched since the original relay, except Legion's got a revision of Thokyunehota going, which we haven't seen yet.
I think that be a good place for me to go, yes. Are there documented diachronics for the various Isles languages?

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Post by dunomapuka »

roninbodhisattva wrote:
boy #12 wrote:You could do a new Isles language, to be placed... just about anywhere. This family hasn't been touched since the original relay, except Legion's got a revision of Thokyunehota going, which we haven't seen yet.
I think that be a good place for me to go, yes. Are there documented diachronics for the various Isles languages?
Nope, I don't think anyone wrote them down -- since, in the original relay, the diachronics were what you were supposed to be guessing at!

I'm having a look now at what's going on with Proto-Isles > Mûtsipsa'.

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Post by Cedh »

I compiled a rough etymological wordlist for Mûtsipsa' a while back. I'll see if I can find it...

EDIT:
I've found it, and made it available here. Looks like a rather complicated set of changes... :)

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Post by kodé »

Corumayas wrote:You know, we don't necessarily have to assign just one protolang for the relay; we could have a Western team, a Nualis-Takuna team, and a Peninsular team if there was a lot of interest.

About the Western family: I think that (especially if the Western speakers spread out quickly after domesticating the horse) rather than three or four big subfamilies, there should ideally be many mostly smaller ones, with complex relationships among them. The greatest diversity should be close to the original homeland.

In particular, I suggest that the "Coastal" and "Steppe" groups mentioned in the PW grammar might be partly or mostly areal rather than genetic... maybe there'd be several coastal-and-nearby subfamilies in the far west, and one or two big steppe ones spreading out to the east (cf. Indo-Iranian within IE).

Steppe-group speakers should probably invade both the Gauron Emwel and Xshalad at some point (maybe not simultaneously), maybe following similar paths to those taken by their Gezoro-Tjakori cousins long before.
If anyone wants a look at how Gezoro and Tjakori are going, give me a PM and I'll go get my notebooks... then we can work on the linguistic history of the steppe!

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Post by roninbodhisattva »

cedh audmanh wrote:I compiled a rough etymological wordlist for Mûtsipsa' a while back. I'll see if I can find it...

EDIT:
I've found it, and made it available here. Looks like a rather complicated set of changes... :)
Ah, this is very nice, thank you. Something nice to sink my teeth into, though I've had some ideas of my own and am trying to carry those out. Hmmm.

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Post by Corumayas »

So, today I've finally bought a brand-new computer, for the first time since the relay killed off my original one. (The curse shall not touch this one, for it is under warranty! :evil: ) I'm going to unpack it when I get home from work in an hour or so. Increased onlineness and, hopefully, productivity should ensue... for real this time.
TzirTzi wrote:If we wanted a set of several, small, but closely/complexly related subfamilies then if we were to use Western in a relay it would require quite significant organisation. We'd have to group participants and say - you two communicate and make sure you share features, etc. Or we'd have to pre-specify a series of sets of predefined features and the participants choose which set (ie. which subfamily) they want to derive with.
Hm. Maybe a simplified version of the latter would be ok: we could come up with a shortish list of some potential shared features, together with ideas of where each feature tends to be found, and encourage relay participants to include a few of them in each lang. The results might approximate a realistic tangle of relationships... maybe?
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Post by Radius Solis »

Another possible way to do that might be: every participant produces, along with their conlang, a list of half a dozen or so features they would like to see retained in at least some daughter languages. Then each deriver from that conlang would be required to retain half of the features listed. Or more than half if that suits them, but half at minimum.

For instance, if I were to make proto-Coastal Western, I might hypothetically make this list of its features I'd like to stick around:

1. tonal
2. labiovelar series
3. lateral obstruents
4. classifiers
5. very synthetic
6. SOV


And then the two people who derive from it might choose to retain features 1, 2, 5 and 1, 3, 4, 5 respectively; and the first person might decide to retain my exact tonal system while the second person messed with it wildly, and the first person's labiovelar series might not look a whole lot like mine, but that would all be to the good. I suspect that this approach might work really well, if people went along with it and nobody put too many exact phonemes in the feature list. It also wouldn't require anybody collaborate with anyone else, though they'd of course be welcome to, but I hate to make someone wait to do their turn until somebody else is ready to do a sister language at the same time.

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Post by Corumayas »

That sounds sensible. Maybe we could give each person who does the first leg of the relay a list of features to include some of, and then have each of them make a similar list for the next person.

Not all the features on the list would have to be found in the parent lang; some of them could be suggested innovations, or likely future developments if things continued moving in a certain direction.

This is just as applicable to the other families as to Western, I think.


Here's my suggestion for a broad outline of the Western family tree, for what it's worth...

Code: Select all

Proto-Western
|--Southwestern Group: langs of the original PW homeland and nearby
`--all others
   |--Southeastern Group: Gezoro, Tjakori, any other close relatives of theirs
   `--all others (Northern Group)
      |--Northwestern Group: langs of the coasts and hills of the northwestern lobe of Peilas
      `--Northeastern Group: northern Steppe langs
These needn't be monophyletic groupings; e.g., the last common ancestor of the SW Group (which should be the most diverse one) might be PW itself, and the last common ancestor of the NW group might also be the ancestor of the Steppe langs. The Coastal langs might be the SW or NW group, or a subset of either, or an areal grouping with members from both. Or something. Anyway, it's just a suggestion.


Also, it's exciting to see some descriptions of cities being added to the wiki! The topography of Midu fits remarkably well with the ideas I've been having about Ngauro cities (especially the temples built on earth mounds).
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Post by TzirTzi »

Corumayas wrote:That sounds sensible. Maybe we could give each person who does the first leg of the relay a list of features to include some of, and then have each of them make a similar list for the next person.
That sounds very sensible
Not all the features on the list would have to be found in the parent lang; some of them could be suggested innovations, or likely future developments if things continued moving in a certain direction.
Likewise this! That way we get shared innovations that aren't easily reconstructible back to a single proto innovation.
This is just as applicable to the other families as to Western, I think.


Here's my suggestion for a broad outline of the Western family tree, for what it's worth...

Code: Select all

Proto-Western
|--Southwestern Group: langs of the original PW homeland and nearby
`--all others
   |--Southeastern Group: Gezoro, Tjakori, any other close relatives of theirs
   `--all others (Northern Group)
      |--Northwestern Group: langs of the coasts and hills of the northwestern lobe of Peilas
      `--Northeastern Group: northern Steppe langs
These needn't be monophyletic groupings; e.g., the last common ancestor of the SW Group (which should be the most diverse one) might be PW itself, and the last common ancestor of the NW group might also be the ancestor of the Steppe langs. The Coastal langs might be the SW or NW group, or a subset of either, or an areal grouping with members from both. Or something. Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
Looks good, but I don't think I'm really qualified to comment.
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Post by dunomapuka »

Short Meshi wordlist, of possible interest to Eige-Isthmus studies:
aysu to speak
aku origin; base; source
fwita bird (??)
gise to defecate
kug jar; pot
meshi autonym (earlier compound miw-si -- yeah, the first bit is "Miw" -- it simply means or meant "person")
met woman (from miw-tV)
mu town; city
sanu village
unu shaman

Notes:
-The vowel system is /a e i u/. /e/ only comes from the diphthong that yields Miw /iw/, and maybe one other diphthong.
-Final /u/ laxes to or [8] or something - Ndok Aisô sometimes borrows it as /ô/ rather than /u/ (well, sometimes /u/ anyway).
-Alveolars palatalize before /i/. No more details on the consonants as yet.

Check the Ndok Aisô lexicon for more additions, but don't hold your breath.

Also I suggest that nobody go filling in PEI > Meshi sound changes on the wiki until the situation's a bit clearer.

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Post by Corumayas »

Not much going on lately. I imagine that most of us are busy (with holidays and so on), as I am, but maybe we can still have a conversation about some broader history. I'm wondering:

1. Where, and how long ago, did Akana's humans appear/evolve?

2. How did they spread to the other continents, and when? Are all the landmasses populated by our historical period, or is colonization still going on?

3. What about the origins and spread of agriculture, metallurgy, and other technologies?

Regarding question 1, I'm thinking maybe somewhere in tropical Peilash (south of Xshalad) or Zeluzhia. The former might give Peilash civilizations a bit of a head start over the eastern continent (which seems destined to overtake them eventually).

I have some vague thoughts about the other questions, but I'll save them for another post.
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Post by Cedh »

Corumayas wrote:1. Where, and how long ago, did Akana's humans appear/evolve?
2. How did they spread to the other continents, and when? Are all the landmasses populated by our historical period, or is colonization still going on?
3. What about the origins and spread of agriculture, metallurgy, and other technologies?
1.
Southern Peilaš and Zeluzhia appear to be the most likely locations indeed.

2.
Siixtaguna and the northwestern edge of the northeastern continent (the homeland of Proto-Isles) are on the same tectonic plate. I'm not sure whether there would have been a land bridge though; there's no land north of c. 70° so I feel that lower ocean levels due to an ice age some 10.000 years ago would be unlikely. We can declare that a land bridge did exist if we want to, but there's always the Ttiruku island arc as an alternative route.

The steps from Zeluzhia to the neighbouring continents to its north and south (or from the north to Zeluzhia) would be rather easy. Both straits are only a few hundred km wide, with lots of islands encouraging a naval culture anyway, and additionally located in a favourable climate zone.

The twin continents in the southwest might still be uncolonized in classical times. They're rather far away from all likely centres of civilisation, and the only way to reach them without having to cross too much open ocean would be via the antarctic continent which is mostly covered by ice south of the mountain range, and on via a long chain of small islands that are rather far apart. IMO a good scenario for their discovery would be that a culture from the littoral region between Antarctica and South Zeluzhia starts empire-building, conquers most of the temperate areas of Antarctica, and sets out to discover the regions beyond. The tech level required would probably be similar to that of Huyfárah.

3.
Agriculture: separately on different continents; the best areas in Peilaš seem to be the mediterranean Western coast, Xšalad, and southern Huyfárah (i.e. the Ngauro civilisation or a slightly earlier culture).
Metallurgy: Tjakori?

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Post by Corumayas »

cedh audmanh wrote:1.
Southern Peilaš and Zeluzhia appear to be the most likely locations indeed.
Ok. I guess the next question is, what difference does it make which continent humans evolved on? There will be more diversity in that continent, for one thing. (More genetic diversity anyway; whether cultural/linguistic diversity are affected probably depends on how long ago humans started expanding.)
2.
Siixtaguna and the northwestern edge of the northeastern continent (the homeland of Proto-Isles) are on the same tectonic plate. I'm not sure whether there would have been a land bridge though; there's no land north of c. 70° so I feel that lower ocean levels due to an ice age some 10.000 years ago would be unlikely. We can declare that a land bridge did exist if we want to, but there's always the Ttiruku island arc as an alternative route.
This seems like an important point. If the move between the eastern continent(s) and Peilaš (whichever direction it goes) is recent, I'd expect the peoples on the "new world" side to be quite closely related to one another. Maybe we should make it happen as early as it plausibly can, then...

(There is mention of glacial valleys in the Rathedan article... maybe that needn't imply ice-age scale glaciation though?)
The steps from Zeluzhia to the neighbouring continents to its north and south (or from the north to Zeluzhia) would be rather easy. Both straits are only a few hundred km wide, with lots of islands encouraging a naval culture anyway, and additionally located in a favourable climate zone.
On earth, according to this interesting site, 180 Km or so was the upper limit of sea crossings until ca. 20 000 years ago. Not sure why that's so, but maybe it's worth keeping in mind here.
The twin continents in the southwest might still be uncolonized in classical times. ... IMO a good scenario for their discovery would be that a culture from the littoral region between Antarctica and South Zeluzhia starts empire-building, conquers most of the temperate areas of Antarctica, and sets out to discover the regions beyond. The tech level required would probably be similar to that of Huyfárah.
Alternatively, I think a Polynesian-like group (from either the region you propose or the SE extension of the NEern continent) could colonize those seas without urban civilization or imperialism. I agree that this might be quite recent; maybe it starts around the same period as the Proto-Isles expansion in the opposite direction (ca -1500).
3.
Agriculture: separately on different continents; the best areas in Peilaš seem to be the mediterranean Western coast, Xšalad, and southern Huyfárah (i.e. the Ngauro civilisation or a slightly earlier culture).
Agreed. I think each of those three areas could develop agriculture more or less independently. My idea (based loosely on eastern Asia) is that pottery and maybe some cultivation could appear in the Xšali-Peninsular zone as early as -10 000, with cereal-based agriculture in the Aiwa-Huyfárah region by around -7000.

It was suggested some time ago that we should establish a different rhythm for technological development than earth had. One thing to think about might be the role of contacts across the Ttiruku island chain, which connects the two northern continents in a way that has no obvious earth parallel...
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Post by Legion »

On an unrelated note, I saw that Cedh added a page for the Buruya dialect of Naidda on the Akanapedia, but this page (http://akana.superlush.co.uk/~akana/ind ... uya_Nzaysa) isn't linked anywhere on the wiki, is it on purpose, because it's not over yet?

(btw, interesting stuff, Cedh, :) )

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Post by Radius Solis »

Buruya Nzaysa has been a bit of a collaborative project, tho Cedh really went to town with the grammar. But no, there's no good reason for the page to be orphaned... I should write up at least a brief dialectology of Naidda (which I'm working on again, in hopes of entering it for the ZBB awards) and then there'll be something to link to the Buruyan dialect.

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Post by Cedh »

Legion wrote:(btw, interesting stuff, Cedh, :) )
Thanks a lot, but, as Radius said, not all of it is my own work. Boy #12 designed the sound changes, the outcome of which inspired me to write a grammar for Buruya Nzaysa in the first place, and 80% of the grammar is closely based on Rad's Delta Naidda. Anyway, it's one of my favourite conlang projects so far, precisely because of the rather narrow constraints to work from (SC already fixed; supposed to be almost intercomprehensible with Naidda although the phonology is a bit divergent, etc.) As for links: Buruya Nzaysa is included in a number of names sections already, and I simply forgot to add it to the Edastean family tree.

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Post by Legion »

Okay so, I made this:

Image

It's a script for Ndak Ta!

So basically, I started with the idea that, while Ngauro is supposed to have a logographic script, the Ndaks wouldn't do much with such a complicated script, and, like the Cananeans did, would quickly simplify the system to retain only a few letters with a sound coming from initial of the word they were originally associated with.

As Ndak Ta is quite vowel happy however, I'd figure they could as well come up with a true alphabet. So that's what it is: a true albhabet. It's written from top to botom, left to right. There are no specific punctuation symbols (besides a dot to separate words), and no specific symbols for numbers either (they are spelled out, or eventually abreviated, eg "sudn" (eight) would be often writen "sdn", "sn", "s", etc).

Now, we can derive scripts (and native crasy spelling!) for Faralo, Naidda and Ndok Aiso!

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Post by Zhen Lin »

Nice! But I think there is room further simplification of the glyphs, especially in handwriting. Also, which style will be used for inscriptions? Will this lead to majuscules and miniscules as in European scripts? Also, perhaps more critically - is it horizontal or vertical, top-down or bottom-up, right-to-left or left-to-right, or boustrophedon?

I guess we can start a con-script/orthography relay now...
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Post by Legion »

The room left for simplification is on purpose – this is supposed to be more or less the equivalent of the classic roman alphabet or brahmi script; as the script will be worn down by use, it will be simplified in various, different ways, giving birth to distinct but related scripts...

The "early" style is just provided as an illustration of the transformation process, it's the style used in the earliest Ndak Ta inscriptions attested, but it is later replaced by the style labelled as ... "later", which is the style found in most inscription when writing starts to spread.

As I said, it is written top to botom, left to right.

Code: Select all

i l
t i
· k
i e
s ·
· t
w h
r i
i s
t
e
n

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